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Your character must be within the level range for the scenario, so a 4th or 10th level character can't play in a level 5-9 scenario.
I believe you can only play up (according to the Guide) or down (by message board posts) one sub-tier, so a 2nd level character in a Tier 1-7 scenario can play up to 3-4, but not to 6-7.
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You can play up 1 sub-tier under certain circumstances. You cannot play up to a 5-9 if you are level 4, for example though ever. Or a level 6 cannot play up to a 7-11.
You may not play down. You always follow the APL calculations. This means that an level 3 character sitting with 4 level 1s is playing sub-tier 1-2. This does not mean that 4 level 4s can choose to play sub-tier 1-2.
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To add more confusion to the pot, also remember that there is a difference between "Tier" and "Sub-Tier". The tier represents the large level range (1-5), (1-7), (3-7), (5-9), (7-11). You may never, under any circumstances whatsoever play out of your tier. If you are level 4, you can play in 1-5, 1-7, or 3-7 only. You may not play in 5-9, even if everybody else you want to play with are all level 5's and your party APL would adjust up to level 5. Once you're looking within a tier though, sub-tiers are a little more flexible. You are allowed to play up (or down) within one sub-tier). So that level 4 character might find themselves playing in a 1-7 game and could play at sub-tier 1-2 if a bunch of level 1's are present, or 3-4 if a bunch of level 4's are present, or even 6-7 if a bunch of level 7's are present.
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If the the tier is 1-5, and the APL is less than 3, can the players play up to 4-5? I thought your APL had to equal at least 3 to play up?
Huh. That's strange. I just realized that my brain doesn't think of an APL 3 group playing in a 1-5 mod to be playing down if they play sub-tier 1-2. My brain just thinks that's playing. :)
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Here is post that explains it in detail
Things may change in Season 3.
But Dragnmoon, your post specifically ignores Play! Play! Play! Won't that change things? ;-)
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But Dragnmoon, your post specifically ignores Play! Play! Play! Won't that change things? ;-)Here is post that explains it in detail
Things may change in Season 3.
The only thing it changes, is now at PaizoCon or GenCon *What ever you are attending* I will have to make sure you get into one of my games so I can kill your PC!!!!
;)
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The only thing it changes, is now at PaizoCon or GenCon *What ever you are attending* I will have to make sure you get into one of my games so I can kill your PC!!!!
;)
It looks like the Slankster will be playing alongside me at PaizoCon next Saturday. I'm the cleric and he's the squishy wizard. I suppose I could "forget" to heal him from time to time. Would that work?
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It looks like the Slankster will be playing alongside me at PaizoCon next Saturday. I'm the cleric and he's the squishy wizard. I suppose I could "forget" to heal him from time to time. Would that work?
Sadly I am not GMing You Only Die Twice during then, I am running Shadows Last Stand, Part 2: Web of Corruption.
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So here's a question...
-Game time rolls around, and showing up to a 1-7 module are two 6ths, two 5ths, a 4th, and some new player's brand-new 1st-level PC.
-Our APL is (27/6)=4.5, +1 = 5.5, rounds to APL 6.
-We are solidly in Tier 6-7 range.What happens?
-Matt
The 2 level 6's, 2 level 5s and the level 4 for make a Level 1 PC.
Everyone should have a level 1 or 2 PC just for this situtation, those are things that should to be accepted by those that play Org Play.
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Many of the questions raised here are actually covered in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play.
Scenarios and Tiers
Pathfinder Society scenarios are designed so that players of a variety of levels can participate in a given scenario, though with some limitations. Currently, there are five different Tiers within Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
They are:
Tier 1–5
Tier 1–7
Tier 5–9
Tier 7–11
Tier 12
Most of these Tiers have sub-Tiers. They are:
Tier 1–5: 1–2 and 4–5
Tier 1–7: 1–2, 3–4, and 6–7
Tier 5–9: 5–6 and 8–9
Tier 7–11: 7–8 and 10–11
Tier 12: no sub-Tiers
Tiers are a level restriction for play. Anyone playing a level 1 character must always play in a Tier 1–2 sub-Tier whenever possible. Rarely, PCs may be allowed to play “up” a Tier if they’re lower level than all of the other players. For example, suppose you were GM for a full table with one level 1 PC and f ive level 4 PCs in a Tier 1–5 scenario. Normally the level 1 PC couldn’t play up, but he can in this instance because it’s the only way for him to play. Players who play up need to realize that it comes with significantly increased risks. A player can always refuse to play up when that’s his only option. A player may only ever play up one step—so a level 1 character can play up to sub-Tier 4–5, but cannot play up to sub-Tier 6–7—though these instances should be rare.
Calculating Average Party Level
In order to determine what Tier a mixed-level group of PCs should play, you must determine the group’s average party level, or APL. You should always round this number to the nearest whole value. In addition, because encounters are designed with four players in mind, if there are six or more players at the table, add +1 to the APL. For example, if your group consists of six players, two of whom have 4th level characters and four of whom have 5th level characters, your group’s APL is 6th (divide 28 total levels by six players, round up, and add +1 to the f inal result). This means your group should play in a sub-Tier appropriate for 6th level, though since you added the +1 from table size, you can play in a sub-Tier appropriate for 5th level as well. We don’t want the above table showing up for a Tier 1–5 scenario, something they’re all the appropriate level for, and being told that they can’t play after their APL calculation. APL is a loose rule for determining your appropriate level of play—it should be followed as often as possible and broken only when following it would bump characters from a scenario that they would normally be able to play. Finally, if the APL of a table is between two sub-Tiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario), the players may choose to play up to sub-Tier 4–5 or play down to sub-Tier 1–2.
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True that, But that is different, specically it is talking about *Out of Tier* play due to APL being above the Level range.
In other words the APL being 6, when they range only goes to 5, but everyone in the group is 5 and lower.
His example is not that. Everyone is in the level range (1-7), the APL is not out of Tier (6).
"Technically" the sub-tier is 6-7, but best solutions is for everyone to pull out thier level 1 and 2s, that everyone should have just incase, which is a much better solution of playing up or down to 3-4.
Though I would run it 3-4 if they really wanted do, but the play expereince would be terrible due to the level diversity.
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Actually 5.5 rounds to 6, so "Technically" they can't choose to play down, and with that level make up they can't play at that tier either.
This is not quite correct. I asked Josh about a similar situation awhile ago on the boards and he indicated otherwise. If a party is "forced up" a tier due to APL, they can still play in their appropriate tier. The intent was never to have a group of 1-2's be required to play at tier 4-5.
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What happens?
There are lots of options depending on what the table wants to do. So the answer is "It depends".
If I was playing at that table, I'd want to play at subtier 6-7, the level 4 would play up, and the guy with the level 1 would play a level 7 pregen. That would be the riskier option for everyone and you'd need optimal characters and group composition.
I guess everyone could play subtier 1-2 characters, but I personally wouldn't choose this option, not just for one guy. Most of the time, you can find a table for the level 1 guy and someone else has a higher level character.
The best compromise (and more inclusive) solution would be for everyone to play subtier 3-4.
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Actually 5.5 rounds to 6, so "Technically" they can't choose to play down, and with that level make up they can't play at that tier either.This is not quite correct. I asked Josh about a similar situation awhile ago on the boards and he indicated otherwise. If a party is "forced up" a tier due to APL, they can still play in their appropriate tier. The intent was never to have a group of 1-2's be required to play at tier 4-5.
there is no 4-5 in a level 1-7 scenario... what are you talking about?
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What happens?There are lots of options depending on what the table wants to do. So the answer is "It depends".
If I was playing at that table, I'd want to play at subtier 6-7, the level 4 would play up, and the guy with the level 1 would play a level 7 pregen. That would be the riskier option for everyone and you'd need optimal characters and group composition.
I guess everyone could play subtier 1-2 characters, but I personally wouldn't choose this option, not just for one guy. Most of the time, you can find a table for the level 1 guy and someone else has a higher level character.
The best compromise (and more inclusive) solution would be for everyone to play subtier 3-4.
Yup, this is another option, but I always avoid this because making a player play a Level 7 pregen means he gets no credit, if everyone plays a level 1 or 2, everyone gets credit.
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there is no 4-5 in a level 1-7 scenario... what are you talking about?
I'm talking about 1-5 modules and the gap between tiers 1-2 and 4-5. The same could be said for the gap between 3-4 and 6-7. I'm talking about any situation when you're forced up a tier when in reality your level is between tiers.
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there is no 4-5 in a level 1-7 scenario... what are you talking about?I'm talking about 1-5 modules and the gap between tiers 1-2 and 4-5. The same could be said for the gap between 3-4 and 6-7. I'm talking about any situation when you're forced up a tier when in reality your level is between tiers.
First, can we use the Term sub-tiers, you are confusing me otherwise.
Second you never can force a player to do anything, but if the APL is 4 in a 1-5 scenario, the APL is 4, you can't "Cheat" on math. If the APL is 3 and the "group" decides to play 4-5 and even with a level 1 in the group, true you can't Force the player to play up, but at that point you either convince the group otherwise, and if that fails, you try to convince the group to play level 1 or 2s, if that fails you try to convince the level 1 to play a level 4 Pregen and if that fails and the level 1 still refuses to play sub-tier 4-5 then you have no other choice but to tell him sorry then your out if their no other games available.
I am not sure what you are getting at here?
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First, can we use the Term sub-tiers, you are confusing me otherwise.
I apologize for not using the term sub-tier. I was in a bit of a hurry when I responded and I know how confusing it could be otherwise.
Second you never can force a player to do anything, but if the APL is 4 in a 1-5 scenario, the APL is 4, you can't "Cheat" on math. If the APL is 3 and the "group" decides to play 4-5 and even with a level 1 in the group, true you can't Force the player to play up, but at that point you either convince the group otherwise, and if that fails, you try to convince the group to play level 1 or 2s, if that fails you try to convince the level 1 to play a level 4 Pregen and if that fails and the level 1 still refuses to play sub-tier 4-5 then you have no other choice but to tell him sorry then your out if their no other games available.
The situation I am referring to is best exemplified when a group of 6 level 3's get together. At that point you are APL 4. The intent of the rule though was not that you are "forced" to play at sub-tier 4-5 in that instance. Specifically, you should be allowed to play up or down depending on what the party desires.
The specific thread where I asked this question last summer can be found here (Sorry, can't get linkification to work):
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderS ociety/general/difficultyOfPathfinderScenarios&page=1#4
Specifically...
Your exact situation is actually not the intent of the Society's APL calculation. Just like I don't want a group of six level 5s who show up to play a Tier 1-5 to be told they can't because their APL is 6, I really don't want a group who is between sub-Tiers to be forced to play up. Sub-Tier 4-5 is really designed for 4th level and higher players. Six 3rd level players will have a very difficult time...
In 2.3, I'll add some language that deals with your specific example MisterSlanky. My intent wasn't to force those in between sub-Tiers to play up. :-/
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Yeah I remember that conversation, I did as I was driving back to work.
That is a very specific situation and he is talking about when moving up sub-tiers when no one in the group is actually of level in that sub-tier should not be done because it can be dangerous *Though I think 6 level 3s can handle it* so the +1 should not be added.
But Mattastrophic example does not match that because there was level PCs for every sub-tier so that does not come into effect really.
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What I'm really trying to get at here is the situation, which actually happened to our local group last Friday, where more than half of the table is all set to play the high sub-Tier (our local group has a party who is all set for Tier 6-7, and well beyond any 3-4 challenges), and either a brand-new player or a player with a PC of lower-level than the majority of the group, shows up.
The question becomes, do we really need to have an atmosphere where low-level PCs just force down the Sub-Tier, to the point where the rest of the party, entirely viable at their own Sub-Tier without the lower-level PC's presence, is compromised on both challenge level and gold? Or worse, instructed to all make new PCs?
Fortunately, there is the pre-gen option for the new player.
-Matt
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Good idea! Now if I could get Pain and Doug too in the game then I can guarantee a TPK! ;)::reaches down and picks up the tossed gauntlet::
What slot when exactly? What subtier?
-Pain
Well we were talking about You Only Die Twice on Saturday morning. Sub-tier 8-9. Unfortunately 'Moon is complaining about not being scheduled to run that.. pft.
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Well we were talking about You Only Die Twice on Saturday morning. Sub-tier 8-9. Unfortunately 'Moon is complaining about not being scheduled to run that.. pft.You convince Hyrum to let me GM that and Game is on!
Edit: I will make sure you all die Three time! or Thrice!
Why do *I* have to do all the work for you?! And here I thought you'd be motivated enough with the chance to TPK us.
p.s. My cleric is unkillable. Just sayin'..
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@ Ryan Bolduan and Dragnmoon:
The guide states that APL is a loose guideline and that players should be allowed to play in their respective sub-tiers.
However, the GM should guide the players toward playing the appropiate sub-tier; no sub-tier 1-2 game will be very challenging/satisfying for 6 3rd level characters.
I think the guide should have more clear cut and restrictive rules on matters of Tiers and APL.
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Why do *I* have to do all the work for you?! And here I thought you'd be motivated enough with the chance to TPK us.p.s. My cleric is unkillable. Just sayin'..
I can try, but I have had no luck in the past changing what I was running.
That said.