Party characters


Gamer Life General Discussion

Sovereign Court

Hello I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to get my adventure party to work together. We have a CE half orc barbarian who fights only for icedcream. A N changeling(we sort of merged some D&D 3.5 stuff) who multiclasses and basically can win on disguise checks without rolling. A LG human bard who is totally useless and gives away the parties gold to charity for an obscur "saint" template. Finally we have a LE dwarven cavalier who is always drunk and on a griffon+ his AC is basically invincible. Any tips?


Don't have evil and good in the same party unless you are sure the Players are willing to have their characters work together...or unless the whole group is ok with PVP/backstabbing/etc...

As for this group, sit down with the players and work it out. If you insist upon an In-character solution, have a Ultra-powerful >whatever< give them an >ultra important< quest that requires all of them. This might work for a moment, but unless you have player cooperation, it ain't happining.


It doesn't sound like you'll be able to make this party into the heroes of an epic- but if the players all agree to have fun and cooperate to do that, you could end up with the sort of crazy-awesome game I still wish I could play again.


I'll echo that good and evil characters together don't usually work well, however with a common enemy they might band together and put aside their personal agendas. Any enemy of my enemy is my friend, after all.

Dark Archive

I agree Evil and Good mix only works if the PC are will ing to make it work. A LG "Saint" with a CE Barbarian... thats a tough sell. In game fixes - a Geas/Quest spell from a powerful NPC.
As for the drunk cavalier... add some penalties for being fatigued during the day (hungover) could lead to exhaustion later in the day after fights also if he fights drunk can add penalties for that as well. Controlling moves against high AC characters... disarm, trip, dirty tricks, sunder and such...


evil and good doesnt work together well.

I do not see an hakf-orc barbarian motivated by Iced Cream to be CE, CN or NE would probably be a better fit unless he deliberately goes out of his way to be cruel, which would not work with LG at all.

LE characters can usually work in parties quite well, though they might be overzealously trying to keep to the letter of a code but disregards the spirit, he might be looking for glory and his knightly nobility and occasional kindness might be pretense to achieve the admiration of the populace.

Bards can be lawful now ? I thought they were still restricted there, but I might be wrong.. a saint in such a party seems curious at best, though the evil doers might not be concerned as long as it doesnt affect their personal goals, on the part of the aspiring saint he might be trying to inspire and redeem misguided souls to look beyond their immediate needs and inspire them to true heroism and guide them to a better life and eternal rewards. In this regard the cavalier might be a fallen hero the bard wants to redeem, the halforc an ignorant soul that can be taught.


Our group long ago decided nobody would play evil characters. If new people join us we let them know that up front.

I've been playing this game since 1976, owned a hobby store when the game was exploding in popularity, and have played D&D and other role playing games with literally hundreds of people. I play Pathfinder two nights a week and in both groups are people who played at my hobby store around 1980. (One of them was a kid then and now owns his own hobby store)

And what we've learned is far too many players use "evil" alignment to justify doing things to disrupt the group and ruin the game for everyone else. "I'm just playing my alignment!" is the crutch for so much bad play that it's not worth allowing it.

Ask yourself as a GM why the players want to play evil. If you find reasons beyond; steal from the party, disrupt play by killing the npc's that move the adventure along, spoil the game for other players who have to react to their actions constantly to prove their own alignment choice, or wanting to be the center of attention at every session, then you've found that rare player indeed.


I smell flame bait....


XKING wrote:
Hello I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to get my adventure party to work together. We have a CE half orc barbarian who fights only for icedcream. A N changeling(we sort of merged some D&D 3.5 stuff) who multiclasses and basically can win on disguise checks without rolling. A LG human bard who is totally useless and gives away the parties gold to charity for an obscur "saint" template. Finally we have a LE dwarven cavalier who is always drunk and on a griffon+ his AC is basically invincible. Any tips?

Arbitrarily kill off all the characters. Make it really pointless, stupid stuff:

  • The barbarian dies of poisoned ice cream. It's "god poison" Can't detect it, doesn't kick in after you ate all the ice cream, and you don't get a save. No immunity applies. Just dead. Death by Ice Cream.

  • The changeling is accosted by a guy whose form he has (unwittingly) taken on. By a really weird coincidence, he made himself look exactly like that guy. And he's a post-epic wizard who kills everyone who does that out of principle.

  • The Bard gets his saint template only to find out that he's been fooled by an archdevil. It makes him die and go to Hell. No chance to escape.

  • The dwarf falls off his griffon when he's drunk. Lands on a mountain that is just there, rolls off about two miles of mountainside. Hits every bump on the way down. Those bumps are really sharp. And made of adamantine. And then he falls into a volcano that is on the bottom of that mountain. Going to drown in lava. That pisses off Dahak, the red dragon god (or just some other red dragon god. Invent one if you don't have one in your campaign) who murders him while he's dying from the fall and the lava.

    Something like that. Then, tell the players to start again. They're to make a group, not a bunch of lone wolves.


  • Kantrip wrote:

    Our group long ago decided nobody would play evil characters. If new people join us we let them know that up front.

    I've been playing this game since 1976, owned a hobby store when the game was exploding in popularity, and have played D&D and other role playing games with literally hundreds of people. I play Pathfinder two nights a week and in both groups are people who played at my hobby store around 1980. (One of them was a kid then and now owns his own hobby store)

    And what we've learned is far too many players use "evil" alignment to justify doing things to disrupt the group and ruin the game for everyone else. "I'm just playing my alignment!" is the crutch for so much bad play that it's not worth allowing it.

    Ask yourself as a GM why the players want to play evil. If you find reasons beyond; steal from the party, disrupt play by killing the npc's that move the adventure along, spoil the game for other players who have to react to their actions constantly to prove their own alignment choice, or wanting to be the center of attention at every session, then you've found that rare player indeed.

    +1

    I agree 100%.

    In my experience, players who want to play evil have ALWAYS done it to give them an excuse to be complete @$$#@!3$ in the game.

    I ban evil, and CN from my games for that reason. To be honest, these days (I've been playing since the late 70's too) if a player insists on playing evil I normally just throw them out of the group. Anybody who MUST play evil (and I've had players like that, especially when I did open gaimng at hobby shops)is someone I don't want to be around.

    Yes, its fantasy, but someone who just likes beign malicious, torturous, or simply annoying is no fun to game with anymore.

    And Kae Yoss....I like your idea too.

    Liberty's Edge

    I am not defending anyone who wants to play evil I am justing saying that it can be done. However, the above posters, Kantrip, Gigglestick, and others are absolutely correct. Before someone is allowed to play evil they should be asked why. Most, as they have said, just end up using alignment as their personal hall pass to do whatever they want.

    I believe evil alignments do need to be, sort of codified, to be justly played at the table, specially if they are to mingle with good characters.

    Some edicts of use to potentially evil characters...

    Take no prisoners, directly adverse to most ppls assumptions of the LG paladin.

    Torture prisoners if you do happen to take one to get information.

    Steal if needed.

    What you should notice about those 3 examples is that some of the time an adventuring party of good characters will do those 3 as well depending on the context of the situation.

    I played a LE Cleric once who used undead minions. The party didnt mind, there was no Paladin in the group, and it was role played that we all had interest in the campaign succeeding. I healed/buffed my party members the same as if I had been a good cleric. It was a lot like the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Other than the party who knew I had my own evil reasons for helping them defeat a tyrant no one in the game world knew.

    That is the other part of the evil concept that many players get wrong, imo. There are many evil people in the world, real and otherwise. Most of us never know who they are b/c they generally follow laws just in the sense of trying not to get caught so that they can continue their evil ways whether that be selfish, stealing, killing.

    So when someone wants to play evil just so they can do whatever they want Id allow it. Have them start at 1st lvl. That player will most likely kill someone on the street in a town. Then the guards arrive, who are all 2nd lvl fighters with the corporal of the guard who is a 4th lvl fighter and the PC will be killed or taken to jail. Once in custody he will tried and punished for his crime, death!

    When he says, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? I WAS JUST PLAYING MY ALIGNMENT!!...I will say, yes you were, and I was just playing out the laws of the people in the game you broke.


    gigglestick wrote:

    In my experience, players who want to play evil have ALWAYS done it to give them an excuse to be complete @$$#@!3$ in the game.

    I ban evil, and CN from my games for that reason. To be honest, these days (I've been playing since the late 70's too) if a player insists on playing evil I normally just throw them out of the group. Anybody who MUST play evil (and I've had players like that, especially when I did open gaimng at hobby shops)is someone I don't want to be around.

    I understand banning evil characters, and to a lesser extent CN characters, but I'm curious; is your rule on CN as strict as it is on evil? I know that there are players out there who play CN just to disrupt things and pretty much do what they want, but there are those, like myself, who often play CN characters who are not disruptive. Most of my characters have been rogue types, who are out to get rich, or otherwise are motivated by selfish reasons, and do not like authority. They don't go out of their way to take down authority, nor to liberate those being oppressed. But if the money's right...sure. They'll stand up to the guys in-charge. No wholesale murder though. That would cross that thin line between CN/NE. Ok, I'm rambling now. I'll shut up.


    Ivan Rûski wrote:


    I understand banning evil characters, and to a lesser extent CN characters

    I don't. Most alignments can work in a party. That includes CN and evil ones, except CE, and that only maybe.

    The only thing that doesn't work is idiots who are too stupid to understand the alignment system or jerks who want to make trouble.

    You can be an arse with LG. I had more disruptive LG characters (including paladins) than disruptive evil characters.

    And CN? Seriously? Maybe if you subscribe to some braindead alignment concept where CN has to roll for all actions, it is bad, but otherwise? Nah. Lots and lots of heroes in popular stories would be CN if they were D&D or PF characters.

    I've played great CN characters, and seen more of them. I've also played great evil characters in non-evil groups, and, again, seen it done more often still by other people.

    Some people seem to think that chaotic and/or evil characters can't be in a party because they are inherently selfish and antisocial.

    Those are the people I might bother to educate if I think they can be saved, but otherwise I'll throw them out. Sociopaths.

    The Exchange

    Mutual enemy. Some one every PC wants to take out. If they all agree that this dude, Evil Overlord what have you, needs to go. Then they can work together despite alignment issues.


    heck, weekly william is afraid of evil characters, despite the fact in other games, i have played some evil characters that were not that disruptive. but had great goals that fit the character.

    a kuthite inquisitor who grew up in a temple of irori before her conversion. a sadist and a masochist. her twisted views of both faiths led to the idea of seeking enlightenment through pain.

    a drow bard who sought to block out the sun because she hates migranes. she had a few other less evil, but still selfish goals.

    a street urchin who grew up around the church of St. Cuthbert and twisted his teachings for her benefit. she became a spy, assassin, and agent for the church and dual wielded spring loaded wrist daggers (and this was way before assassin's creed was out)

    a mercenary from suterngaunt (basically homebrew cheliax pre pathfinder) who was motivated by money in huge amounts, he cursed, drank, and killed his victims brutally with a 20 foot long barbed chain. he specialized on tripping people and keeping them on the ground. and he was nicknamed, "the chain devil of Suterngaunt." he killed a giant snake and crafted armor from it and magically got turned into a woman via cursed armor. which only made him more evil. he was based loosely off of a character from Gundam 00. (a minor villian responsible for a lot of hate coupons in the plot)

    a desert bandit from a group of 40 who lost his 39 comerades and was burnt alive for attempting to avenge them. he sought to slaughter the royal family (he survived the flames) and got his wish, his excitement caused him to combust. the palace burned to the ground after his combustion (think makoto shishio) and the Pcs were the only survivors. he died getting his revenge and was a cold, ruthless, efficient murderer, with one major flaw, he had no sweat glands. he had to wear moist bandages at all times, and couldn't fight for more than 15 minutes at a time.

    the inquisitor and the street urchin were in weekly william's games and i placed a fake alignment on thier character sheets. the others were with tuesday tony


    KaeYoss wrote:
    Ivan Rûski wrote:


    I understand banning evil characters, and to a lesser extent CN characters

    I don't. Most alignments can work in a party. That includes CN and evil ones, except CE, and that only maybe.

    The only thing that doesn't work is idiots who are too stupid to understand the alignment system or jerks who want to make trouble.

    You can be an arse with LG. I had more disruptive LG characters (including paladins) than disruptive evil characters.

    And CN? Seriously? Maybe if you subscribe to some braindead alignment concept where CN has to roll for all actions, it is bad, but otherwise? Nah. Lots and lots of heroes in popular stories would be CN if they were D&D or PF characters.

    I've played great CN characters, and seen more of them. I've also played great evil characters in non-evil groups, and, again, seen it done more often still by other people.

    Some people seem to think that chaotic and/or evil characters can't be in a party because they are inherently selfish and antisocial.

    Those are the people I might bother to educate if I think they can be saved, but otherwise I'll throw them out. Sociopaths.

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I've never banned an alignment in my games. We have banned a couple of trouble players, who even after talking to them still were disruptive, but never an alignment. As a rule though, anybody who wants to be evil has to have a serious conversation with the GM as to why, and how it's going to work. Most of the time it will be the character has common goals with the group, and in one case (so far), we've had the character as secretly working against the other PCs. Unfortunatly, that player had to quit playing due to scheduling conflicts and asked me not to reveal his character's true intent, in case he could join again. Shortly thereafter, the whole campaign imploded due to everyone having scheduling conflicts. :\

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