I'm going to be running a Middle-earth campaign this summer using Pathfinder. I'm using a number of house rules to make it feel more Middle-earth-y, such as restricting advancement in spellcasting classes. A character's level in a spellcasting class cannot be greater than half his level. I had considered converting the character classes, magic, and herb-gathering rules from FF's Midnight campaign setting, but this seemed a simpler solution.
Another thing I'm trying out is Hope and Dread points. These were inspired by The Lord of the Rings Online, and you can Google it to see how it works there. Here, Hope points are similar to Action points. They let the characters be more heroic and overcome their limited healing and magic capabilities. Dread represents the power of Sauron, the ability to instill fear in the hearts of Men (and other races). An idol erected to Sauron in some lonely place might give off Dread points. A Ringwraith's Black Breath or a stab from a Morgul blade might give a character Dread points. Any land that Suaron has touched with his black hand and left tainted could be a source of Dread points. Dread points deaden or negate entirely the effects of Hope points.
A PC starts with Hope points equal to twice his level. (This may be woefully inadequate.) The pool replenishes whenever a PC levels up. Any unspent Hope points are lost. Ways to regain Hope points might be explored.
Generally, any time a PC spends a Hope point, he can add 1d4 to a roll. A PC can spend any number of Hope points at once. A PC can spend Hope points to enhance an attack roll, a skill check, or a saving throw, but NOT a damage roll. Hope points only increase the chance that a PC will succeed at something, not the degree of success. A PC can never spend Hope points to succeed at something that would have been impossible without them (that is, wouldn't have succeeded on a natural 20).
A spellcaster PC can spend Hope points to increase the save DC of one spell by 1d4 for each Hope point spent. The same concepts as above apply (can't increase degree of success, can't do the impossible).
Whenever a PC receives natural or magical healing, the PC can spend up to one Hope point per level of the spell (or one Hope point per 8 hours of rest) to regain an extra 1d4 hit points.
This one's really iffy--a PC may spend all the Hope point he currently has to save himself from death. Probably need more specific rules for that one.
I'm a little less clear on how Dread points should work, how one acquires them, how one gets rid of them (a saving throw most likely). For each Dread point a PC has, a d4 becomes a d2 when spending Hope points. (So if a PC has 2 Dread points and spends 3 Hope points, he rolls 2d2 and 1d4.) If a PC ever has Dread points beyond a certain threshold (I'm thinking, equal to his level or more), they should have negative static effects on the PC, but I'm not certain what those are.
Some ideas: the PC behaves as if Encumbered; incoming healing is reduced by 1 hp per Dread point (or by 1 hp per Dread point over the limit); penalties to attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws (particularly saving throws against fear effects).
How a PC gets rid of Dread is uncertain. Some Dread are tied to locations, like an evil idol or a spooky cave, so they should go away as soon as the character leaves the area. Others behave more like poison, like a Ringwraith's breath or Shelob's bite.
I'm sure this seems like a big, complicated mess to most of you and probably a whole lot of work for nothing. If any of you manage to read this far, I'd appreciate some advice, as long as it's not "Don't do it."
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason you're not simply using the Lord of the Rings RPG? That manages to capture the feel of Middle Earth extremely well.
The mechanics of Midnight are certainly also extremely applicable to a ME setting. Midnight is, after all, more or less lifted straight fromMiddle-Earth with the difference that Sauron won.
I'd recommend using the magic system of Midnight if you do want to run PF. I'm not sure how to update the Wildlander class to PF, but I also think that it works significantly better for that kind of feel.
Just out of curiosity, is there any reason you're not simply using the Lord of the Rings RPG? That manages to capture the feel of Middle Earth extremely well.
The mechanics of Midnight are certainly also extremely applicable to a ME setting. Midnight is, after all, more or less lifted straight fromMiddle-Earth with the difference that Sauron won.
I'd recommend using the magic system of Midnight if you do want to run PF. I'm not sure how to update the Wildlander class to PF, but I also think that it works significantly better for that kind of feel.
Thank you Elrostar. I don't own the Decipher Lord of the Rings RPG, and I wasn't very much impressed by it when I did own it. And I do not feel that the magic system in Midnight is mechanically any closer to Middle-earth than regular D&D magic is. So I'm not using it.
Interesting. As a former long time LotRO player I get what you are trying to do - could you perhaps not lean on the MMO some more for inspiration ?
Such as, for devastating dread effects - those above your threshold - make PCs roll a Will Save vs Fear, if they fail they cower or somesuch for a round or so - losing their actions - a la the MMO. More closer to pathfinder canon, you could perhaps make them save against fear to avoid picking up the Shaken condition. Possibly in a following round taking a save to then avoid the more serious Frightened, and from there the Panicked. Basically a one step increasingly deep fear reaction - depending how far you want to penalise them of course. Perhaps the level of dread relates to the level of fear you can suffer from. Minor dread you can only ever be Shaken. Major dread you can do the whole run for the hills routine.
A spending of hope would give you the capability of automatically passing one of these specific dread tests - dispelling the fear for a while. Thus you can spend hope to buff dice rolls - giving you the positive effects of hope in the MMO, and you can also burn them to offset pervasive dread - increasing your hope to offset other debilitating levels of fear as per the MMO.
Working on a theme, perhaps it would also be possible to spend a number of hope points, rather than just one, and give the *group* a hope buff - allowing everyone an automatic save against dread or somesuch. Say three points to give hope to (n) number of allies including yourself. This gives you a bit of community hope and dread play as opposed to all selfish spending - and rear support characters can possibly lend their upfront and dirty colleagues a hand in the dread department.
I would also check out some of the bits on Sanity and Madness in Pathfinder. Temporary bouts of things like Paranoia whilst under the effects of dread would be quite cool I think.
You could even factor in long term effects of dread on someone ( Gollum for instance ) as having picked up those insanities as a permanent effect - this would probably only really apply to NPC's or lackeys !
Other dread effects. As per its inspiration, drop hit point maximums whilst under the effect of dread. This is extra record keeping though - it might be handy to have preset levels of dread effect depending on the background level in play. Perhaps 3 levels of hit points - your normal, your dread hp, and your terrified dread hp. Simplified stat consequences to improve the bookkeeping - -1 to *all* rolls.
Personally picking up dread points I would think should be hard. Background aura effect dread is one thing - exit the area and instantly feel better. Always with you levels of gloom is another. Picking up permament dread ( which could be removed by spending hope, or better yet some specific counter - Athelas - plus hope ) would be from as you say, wraith wounds or curses, carrying cursed items ( the ring my precious or barrow treasure ), or even just a run of bad luck / weather in a miserable place. Depends how hard you want to make life and how gritty and miserable your version of middle earth is.
Conversely - permanent dread should also open the door to permanent hope. Very rare items that give a permanent hope level. If you dont like the idea of walking around with a constant buff, then only have them counter aura dread - as opposed to giving spam buffs. If you want a bit of tactical deployment for hope buffs, then force players to wield the hope items in their hand - galadriels phial for instance. So you must have a hand free to deploy your hope artefact.
If you want a progressively degenerating sense of urgency, I would go one step further, and have permanent dread get worse over time increments. Like a slow acting poison - and it requires a constant upkeep of hope to keep at bay. This is pretty tough however, and you would have to have your pacing spot on to get the right level of urgency without it being a game killer.
Which is all very cool, but my issue with this is of balance. How do you balance things so that the dread isnt a killer, or conversely hope buffs dont make things too easy, or something in between, all the hope gets burnt in the first 5 minutes, leaving everyone to run away at the end. I think the system has great promise in a pen and paper RPG, I'm just not sure that it doesnt open up a huge can of worms balance wise. Very tough. In the MMO if memory serves me right, you either rely on someone that knows what is going to happen in terms of dread, your raid leader basically gives you the low down - everyone make sure you have N level of hope - or alternatively you die trying, learn the specifics of the dread, and have another go. Not something you really want to be doing in an pen and paper RPG.
I think maybe to balance it, you need to factor in hope and dread into the CR of an encounter, and allow for any encounter to be Easy, Normal or Difficult depending on the hope vs dread in place - but never capable of being too easy or too hard. Also given that, you can total up the encounters for a given scenario / week / module / chapter / howeveryouaredoingit , take the dread vs hope for an Normal difficulty run, and make sure you give your players the required level of hope. If the players start hoarding their hope, decrease the level of hope give outs, or better, increase the level of future dread encounters.
Oh, and bards. Morale boosting songs should also probably effect hope levels / hope vs dread tests . . .
Sounds cool what you are thinking of. An interesting experiment !
The Midnight magic system was far more flexible and ultimately relied (to some extent) in the 'casting from hit points' trope, which very much feels like something applicable to Middle Earth. I guess I don't really see the standard casting classes from PF (three of them, at least: Cleric, Druid or Sorcerer) as really belonging much in Middle Earth, but interpretations may vary.
Wizards obviously do fit the feel, but their powers are not generally terribly flashy or... D&D-like in style. Not a lot of Grease, Magic Missile, Invisibility, Enlarge Person, etc. as far as I can tell.
But again, the feel you're going for may not be what I would want.
Hope points seem like action points by another name, as far as I can tell.
Dread seems like it can be approximated fairly easily just by having it cause the effects of Bane, Prayer, Bestow Curse, or temporary negative levels.
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Thank you Elrostar. I don't own the Decipher Lord of the Rings RPG, and I wasn't very much impressed by it when I did own it. And I do not feel that the magic system in Midnight is mechanically any closer to Middle-earth than regular D&D magic is. So I'm not using it.Just out of curiosity, is there any reason you're not simply using the Lord of the Rings RPG? That manages to capture the feel of Middle Earth extremely well.
The mechanics of Midnight are certainly also extremely applicable to a ME setting. Midnight is, after all, more or less lifted straight fromMiddle-Earth with the difference that Sauron won.
I'd recommend using the magic system of Midnight if you do want to run PF. I'm not sure how to update the Wildlander class to PF, but I also think that it works significantly better for that kind of feel.
Have you looked into MERP?
RE: MERP
I played that for quite some time back in the day and looking back on it, I honestly think it does a TERRIBLE job of conveying the feel of Middle Earth. The source materials for it were generally outstanding in terms of maps, descriptions and that sort of thing, but from a mechanics point of view I thought it was almost singularly poorly capable of conveying any of the flavor of Middle Earth.
I was reminded of this because I was recently looking through some old ICE books (their historical setting for Robin Hood, among others). And it's not a system I ever want to interact with again. Not that I don't have fond memories of playing it, but still...
I wrote for MERP. (Lindon-- didn't get published due to the license going elsewhere after the movie came out). My work has been leaked (not by me) online.
I did play in M-e but used Runequest most recently for it... So yeah, there were some issues with MERP in terms of realism or fidelity to the source material in its cosmological assumptions. I would use E6 or my preference, Pendragon. Strict limits on character abilities and magic are pretty important, as well as a system for ethics and corruption. A skill-based system is helpful. There are a half-dozen free games out there for the setting if you look around.
The main problems with MERP were hit points and magic -- minor injuries and limited magic could be very important or dangerous in M-e. I definitely played it by the rules as well. Wolves and Orcs, interestingly, were very deadly to 1st level PCs.
MERP books were every useful for actual story lines and cultural data, however, even before I was involved in the game. The LotR game, much less so. Also, its advancement rules were frustrating-- a generalist Ranger-type was hard to develop. For a very abbreviated spell list true to the source material, I would urge you to consider adapting from it. It does improve on MERP there.
Thanks, Jubbly, you had some very insightful comments. You're right, keeping things simple is the goal here, and balance is always an issue. Keep in mind that in my system, Hope and Dread are pools of points, not a sliding scale like they are in LOTRO. There's no Hope level, just a pool of Hope points to be spent.
In terms of how they effect the challenge of an encounter, keep in mind that I put Hope points into the game firstly to make up for the lack of magic. PCs can only have half their total level in spellcasting classes. That means a 10th level character can only be a 5th level wizard, cleric, or whatever. Hope points prop up the characters by taking the place of the healing and buff spells they would normally be receiving. Conversely, Dread points remove that crutch out from under the PCs' feet, so to speak.
Let's say that the threshold for dread points is called "Despair." A PC has despair when his dread points is equal to or greater than his level. If a GM wants to make an area spooky, simply have the area inflict dread points on the PCs' equal to roughly half their level. This won't affect them right away, but they'll get less of a bang when they spend their Hope points. If a GM wants to make the area really terrifying, increase the dread points to the PCs' level.
Let's say when a PC has despair, he is forced to make a save v. fear whenever the following happens: he acquires dread points (including the one that gave him despair), he is revived from an unconscious state, he rolls a "1" on an attack roll, or an enemy rolls a "20" to save against something the PC just did. A PC who fails the save is shaken for 1 round. I don't think any more extreme effects need to be hardwritten into the rules. Rather, a monster could have a power that lets it turn a shaken PC into a panicked PC.
As for reducing the PC's hit points, I know that's something dread does in the video game, but I think that's too much for a pen-and-paper RPG. Dread is already reducing the PC's incoming healing, and I think that's enough.
To the rest of you, please stop trying to suggest other systems. I've considered all those other systems (including the upcoming The One Ring by Cubicle 7), but my players and I want to play Pathfinder. I appreciate the input, but that's not what this thread is for. Please take that conversation somewhere else.
One point regarding your idea of how Hope is used. You mention that you don't want it to be used to determine the degree of success, only whether something is successful or not.
This precludes an awful lot of uses of skills, since the amount by which you exceed the DC is precisely a measure of your success.
While I agree that adding 1d4 to damage rolls is inappropriate, I think that's a separate case from 'determining the degree of success' in general. The problem with increasing damage is that that's not normally rolled on 1d20.
Hope and Dread System
Terms
Hope Points: Hope is what makes a hero PC in Middle-earth special. It represents a hero PC’s ability to bring light to the darkness. NPCs generally do not get hope points. A PC starts each level with a number of hope points equal to his level times 2. A PC may spend and earn hope points during play, but his total hope points can never be more than twice his level. When a PC gains a level, he gets a fresh pool of hope points and any unspent hope points are lost.
Max. Hope Points = Level × 2
Hope Level: A PC’s hope level is equal to the number of hope points she currently has.
Dread Points: Dread represents the power of evil in Middle-earth. Dread points are associated with black sorcery, ancient evil, and the servants of the Dark Lord Sauron. There are two types of dread points: pervasive dread and permanent dread. There is no limit to the number of dread points a PC may have at one time.
Pervasive Dread: Certain areas in Middle-earth are tainted with evil. A PC gains dread points when entering the area. These dread points go away one hour after the PC leaves the area.
Permanent Dread: Some attacks will deal dread points directly to a PC. These dread points are permanent and will not go away on their own. Permanent dread points may be removed by a remove curse spell or any higher-level spell that removes curses. A PC who is treated with athelas (150 gp) while resting for 24 hours may make a Will save (DC 10 + dread level) to remove one permanent dread point.
Dread Level: If a PC’s dread level is equal to her current total dread points minus her current total hope points. If this would result in a negative number, the PC’s dread level is 0.
Dread Level = (Permanent Dread + Pervasive Dread) – Hope Points
Spending Hope Points
• A PC may spend any number of hope points he currently has to modify an attack roll, skill check or saving throw. The points may be spent after the roll is made. For each hope point spent, add 1d4 to the roll. The result can never be higher than the result of an unmodified natural 20.
• A PC may spend any number of hope points she currently has to increase the save DC of a spell cast by her. The points must be spent before the spell is cast. For each hope point spent, add 1d4 to the save DC of the spell.
• A PC may spend hope points to enhance a cure spell. The points may be spent after the spell is cast. The number of hope points spent cannot be higher than the level of the spell. For each hope point spent, cure 1d4 additional hit points.
• A PC may spend 1 hope point each time she takes an 8 hour rest to regain hit points at twice the normal rate.
Regaining Hope Points
A PC regains hope points when:
• The PC scores a critical hit against an enemy.
• An enemy rolls a natural 1 on a save against a spell cast by the PC (or anything the PC did to force a save).
• Consuming certain magic items, such as lembas or miruvor.
Dread Effects
• Whenever a PC’s dread level is 1 or higher, he becomes shaken.
• Subtract a PC’s dread level from the save DC of any spell cast by the PC.
• When a PC receives magical healing from a cure spell, subtract the PC’s dread level from each d8 rolled (to a minimum of 1).
• When a PC rests while dread level is 1 or higher, he regains hit points at half the normal rate.
• If a PC’s dread level is equal to her character level, she must make a Will save (DC 10 + dread level) each time she is attacked or be frightened for 1d4 rounds.
• If a PC’s dread level is equal to twice his character level, he becomes panicked for 1d4 rounds after which he is cowering. This effect can only be ended by removing dread points.
I get what you are trying to do, and to try to get the "feel" of middle earth is something I did a long time ago.
So I went through "The Hobbit" and "LOTR" to see what sort of spells Gandalf, Saruman, the Nazgul or any other character actually used.
What I came up with was a very limited set of extremely low level spells. Spells like "light" or "Protection from Evil" or "Pyrotechnics" or even "Mage Hand".
Gandalf was essentially a demi-god according to the mythology of middle earth, and the most powerful spell he cast in the entire set of books was probably best represented in the PF magic system as a metamagic enhanced "Hold Portal", and that nearly exhausted him.
I ended up deciding that very few people would want to play in a system that had such limited magic, and to increase the magical abilities of spell casters to even the level of casting a "fireball" would totally outstrip the "feel" of middle earth, I more or less decided to just go with the system as it is.
But I wish you luck.
I get what you are trying to do, and to try to get the "feel" of middle earth is something I did a long time ago.
Obviously you don't get what I am trying to do or you wouldn't be commenting on the magic system. I am not redesigning the Pathfinder magic system to fit Middle-earth. I am simply making it a requirement for spellcasters to multi-class, so that their spellcasting levels are never more than half their total character levels. They can still cast grease and enlarge person and the like.
No, it doesn't exactly fit the lore of Middle-earth. Trust me, I have been obsessed with Middle-earth since I was 11 years old and I am more in love with the lore of Middle-earth than is perhaps healthy. But I also didn't want to re-design Pathfinder magic from the ground up. I wanted to play Pathfinder, and I wanted to run a game in Middle-earth, so this is the compromise I chose.
I'm happy with that compromise.
If folks could please comment on my system (see 4 posts above this one), rather than suggesting radically different systems, that would be helpful. The campaign starts next week.
Obviously you don't get what I am trying to do or you wouldn't be commenting on the magic system.
Oh, I see. When you said: "I'm using a number of house rules to make it feel more Middle-earth-y" you didn't mean that you were trying to make the campaign more, well, "Middle-earth-y" at all. Now I get it.
So fireball away. Fly all over the place. Teleport across vast distances. Sounds like you're right on target.
The problem with trying to map fantasy fiction into PF or D&D is that there is no "level" mechanic or anything like it in most fantasy fiction. Gandalf and Saruman are demigods, created as demigods and sent to middle earth to fight Sauron, another demigod who was created as a demigod. They didn't "level up" and they don't use PF spells.
There are hints of very powerful magic in LOTR, but magic that is generally far more subtle and wide-ranging than the magic in PF or most other game systems. The main magical accomplishment of Galadriel is to keep Lothlorien free of evil, free of disease and verdant. When the rings perish, Lothlorien faded and Galadriel sailed into the West, so it appears that the greatest magical ability of Galadriel was due to her ring.
On Caradhras it is unclear if Saruman is casting a spell, or if he is waking the mountain spirit. He may be using nothing more powerful than a message spell. As Gandalf says, Middle Earth is full of powers far older than the third age.
It is silly to claim that a LOTR character is a very high level of any class since if that were true they'd have access to and be using far more powerful spells than we actually get any hint of in the books. Instead there are some things that some of the characters can do, and there is no connection whatsoever between what they can do and what "level" they "would have to be" in Pathfinder to do them. Tolkien was not using the Core Rule Book when he wrote the book.
If you truly want to try to make a fantasy world feel at all like middle earth, you would have to throw out most of the spells in the system and create custom classes since none of the major characters fit the template of any existing class, and multiclassing to get all of their abilities accounted for ends up with them having all sorts of abilities they somehow never decide to use even when they would mean the immediate destruction of Sauron.
Gandalf and the other wizards would be "outsiders" with spell like powers and abilities. They wouldn't conform to any class in the game, or any combination of classes. And their powers don't typically manifest as "spells".
As for the OP's question about how his approach to the goal of making the game "middle earthy" being to force players to multi-class their characters so that spell casting levels have to be 1/2 their total level, I don't see how that makes the game anything at all like middle earth. All it does is slow down the spell casting progression. But it won't take long even at 1/2 level speed before characters are doing all sorts of powerful things that nobody in the book ever showed any hint of having the ability to do.
Something as simple and trivial as "levitate" would be a major power in LOTR. Not even Gandalf showed the ability to levitate. "Summon Monster" is far beyond even Sauron's abilities. The most powerful magic item in the world's main ability was to turn it's wearer invisible.
Slowing down the spell progression will not, in my opinion, do anything but change the power balance of the game. It will not make the game "middle earth-y" at all. It will simply gimp characters who want to be spell casters.
Hope shouldn't be intrinsic to the characters, it should be an armor enchantment.
=)
(LoTRO joke for those who don't get it)
One question is how many house rules you want to add? Hope and Dread could just be represented with AOE negative levels or bardic inspire courage/competence/greatness or Good Hope
You can use the stock hero point rules from the APG, but add "ignore dread for an encounter" to the number of things you can do with a point.
If you want to change the flavor of the world, I much prefer it to be done on the character building side. Allowing/disallowing feats/classes/multiclassing etc. When actually playing, I like to keep it simple. I don't want to have to remember what houserules are being used, or what's been changed from core. I don't want to have to refer to a binder of alternate rules and figure out how they interact.
Whenever you are talking about house rules, ask yourself what you are trying to do. I find a lot of time the rules get out of control. Pathfinder is a simplified system, don't try to make it a hyper-detailed one. Smooth, fast gameplay is a feature.
Personally, I'd be more interested in using Hope and Dread to tell the story than just as combat modifiers. I'm basically thinking of the FATE point mechanics, from the game of the same name.
When the players want something good to happen, they give up one of their tokens to the GM. The GM in turn can spend these to have something bad happen to the player. Some of your mechanical effects are good, but you can have more loosely defined story elements as well. When the players spend it, it's called Hope, when the GM does it, it's called Dread.
The goal of a system like this is to have lots of Bad Things (but survivable) happen to the players early in an adventure, so they can save up lots of Hope points. Then, when they see something they just have to accomplish, they've got these resources to spend to help make sure the scene goes their way.
Think of the first Die Hard. John McClane has tons of bad things happen to him constantly in the movie. He has a few victories here and there, but he keeps getting bloodier and bloodier. In the end though, he's perfectly set-up for the finale.
Your rules seem pretty good to me, although the spending of hope points actually ends up equating to the loss of hope given the mechanics ( spend a point to increase a save, now your hope total is less, and your hope v dread is worse ). So by giving yourself that extra spurt to dodge the incoming attack - and succeeding - you now feel more miserable in general. Which feels a bit ... odd. But it works mechanically and has a nice I need to spend a hope point but I also dont want to spend a hope point dilemma.
Also, critical hits regenerating hope. Not sure what character builds are in mind, but is this exploitable by a crit optimised character ? I am no expert on builds ( pfft, play the story not the stats ) , but I know crit rate is one of the things you can tweak til it squeaks. Some scimitar wielding rogue type could be a hope factory... That they are already doing Crits is great, you further empower ( overpower ) that by adding in hope regeneration ? Might this skew players into going for crit generation feats / weapons etc so that everyone is running around with some improved critical falchion ( 15+ to get a hope point ) ? I don't know. It smells like it could be a problem to me. Depends on your players I guess - if there are no uber power gamers you are.. probably.. fine. But I think even the least caring of players will see the crit mechanic and start to think how to maximise their hope gain.
Regain hope on crit sounds like the right idea - it makes sense thematically - but mechanically I am not sure it works - it introduces a fairly easy overpowered exploit.
How about rewarding successful encounters with a possible hope point instead. Thematically it makes sense - your task is that bit more complete, now we feel all good about the future n stuff - but at the same time doesnt lend itself to being crit exploited, or almost demanding characters optimise in a certain way. Now if you play your character well, you may get rewarded. Mechnically, changing hope rewards from critical hits to encounter successes is equivalent once you do some math ( if you need to at all given you are writing your own rules anyway ).
In fact you can probably shorthand the whole dealio into an EL level = (n) amount of hope reward. Basically an XP equivalent - except given your linear hope scale ( 2x ) it doesnt want to be tied 1:1 with XP, as XP ( and therefore EL sum ) is non linear.