Separatist cleric (from UM) and PFS

[AdAstraGames]

Jiggy wrote:

AdAstraGames wrote:

As to Perception checks and other "passive/active" skills:

I would change how Perception rules work when they're not opposed by active Stealth:

???

Forgive me if there's some context I'm missing (I skimmed the last few posts), but what in the world are you talking about?

If you're talking about running the Perception skill different than it's written in the CRB, well, you're not allowed to do that in PFS.

If you're saying that's how you think Perception already works... well, it's not. :P If a stimulus suddenly happens (sudden noise, flash of light, or other "event"), everyone gets a free Perception check right then (free action/no action). Actively searching for stimulus is a move action and can be repeated as many times as you like.

Where are you getting all this "time increment" stuff?

I work as a game designer, Jiggy. I'm always looking at the results of rules being stretched in legal ways that the designer didn't intend. That was musing out loud on how Perception does and does not work as a skill in RPGs in general, it is not a GMing style or table rule I'd use.

One of nosig's "signature plays" is to build a character with a +15 or higher Perception skill, walk forward 15 feet and say "I'm taking 10 on Perception. Tell me everything."

Rather than "Moving carefully forward, I motion everyone to be quiet while I listen for {stimulous} and look for {evidence}" - I'm taking 10 on Perception.

One of those two ways of handling this comes off as "I'm the player, I figured out how the rules work, there's no chance I'll fail. Let's hit the fast forward button, please." The other helps the GM evoke a sense of mystery and danger in the encounter.

Game Designer Thinkipating On

Perception and Sense Motive - the two "Detective" skills par excellance - also have a tendency to be "plot chokers" - if the Perception roll isn't made, the plot chokes until someone in the party eventually makes it. Usually the plot-as-written assumes that the party will make the Perception check, some will get to act in the surprise round, and some won't...or they'll run into traps (which I approve of). But graduated responses to blowing a Perception check, or everyone taking 10 on it, tend to be outside the purview of the scenario as written, because of how Perception is handled.

And Perception is handled in ways that make it THE most important Skill you can take.

It's something I've been poking at and trying to fix for a while for a game I'm writing, and nosig may have pointed me at, if not a fix, a failure mode to keep in mind when thinking about the fix.

[Jiggy]

Oh! General musings. Okay, yeah, didn't get that from your post. Makes more sense now, thanks!

Personally, I don't mind if a player just tells me the mechanics of what his character's doing - I'll just insert my own interpretation of in-character activities. Like if the scout gets found and hit really hard, and the player says "I call for the rest of the party", I might tell the table, "You all hear a squeal that sounds like a cross between a teakettle and <PCNAME>". I enjoy it. :)

Also, for the record, my almost-seventh-level fighter has never had more than a +1 to Perception and is doing just fine, tyvm! ;)

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some posts and responses to it. Let's try not to bad mouth other people or call them idiots please. Constructive criticism is perfectly acceptable, though. Please keep this in mind.

[jjaamm]

just to clarify since alittle more awake
It's not that he is angry all the time. He has GMed at the convention for years, and people still game with him. This year was all PFS in the RPG room, where last year was only about 30-40% PFS. Before that there was no PFS in the RPG room and only 1 per slot. I say this to say, he was out of his comfy zone too. If I had noticed something amiss I would have said something to him, cause he can get snapish at times, when presented with rules he aint familiar with. I have and would again play at his table.
I am not excusing his behaviour which needs to be addressed, and that is why I think he needs to be told how this incident affected another person.

[TwilightKnight]

AdAstraGames wrote:

Perception stuff

I think you perception point about plot choking is a little off-base. From a primary goal perspective, I am not aware off the top of my head of any scenarios that have that problem. Perhaps you can site some examples.

Of course, there are side quests and faction missions that can be failed without a successful perception, but that does not grind the game to a halt.

[james maissen]

AdAstraGames wrote:

One of those two ways of handling this comes off as "I'm the player, I figured out how the rules work, there's no chance I'll fail. Let's hit the fast forward button, please." The other helps the GM evoke a sense of mystery and danger in the encounter.

I think you're ascribing things here that don't have to go hand in hand. Possibly this is from scars/bad experiences of your own.

First of all, a decent perception score does not mean 'there's no way I can fail' but rather 'I'm good at this, so I'll be the lookout'. And there's nothing wrong with that just as there's nothing wrong with the fighter moving forward to melee the monster and the wizard not doing so.

Second, I don't think that you're saying that nosig has actually said 'hit the fast forward button, take us to the combat' but rather the way he happens to say it evokes that in YOU.

Now I could be wrong as you've gamed with him and I haven't. But when he describes on this board that he gives the DM his perception check so that the DM can simply tell him what he sees and omits what he doesn't, it actually conjures the opposite impression for me.

It calls to my mind the kind of player that doesn't want out of character knowledge distracting him from playing his character. It's up there with the players that ask the DM to make certain rolls for them unseen so that they don't take inference from them. They want the DM to describe the world to them from their character's eyes and then they'll say what their character does/says.

I don't see anything really wrong here except the light in which you are electing to see this. Now it may or may not be justified... but from an outside perspective I'm seeing it as within you rather than from him... if that makes any sense.

Now perhaps you can ask him to describe narratively his actions in order to help foster immersion for your sake, but I wouldn't put it down as a character flaw for him as a player. Now if he avoids doing this when his character should be saying something that's something else... which brings to mind the following anecdote:

There was one player that I recall that would always speak about their character in the third person and never directly spoke for them. You would speak as your character (or in the DM's case as an NPC) and the reply would never be 'I' but rather 'he', etc.. It did get of practically everyone's nerves.

As to plot chokers.. it depends if you are writing a story that the PCs are characters in, or if you are presenting the PCs with an adventure in which they may or may not do what you planned for them to do.

-James

[Vinyc Kettlebek]

jjaamm wrote:

just to clarify since alittle more awake

It's not that he is angry all the time. He has GMed at the convention for years, and people still game with him. This year was all PFS in the RPG room, where last year was only about 30-40% PFS. Before that there was no PFS in the RPG room and only 1 per slot. I say this to say, he was out of his comfy zone too. If I had noticed something amiss I would have said something to him, cause he can get snapish at times, when presented with rules he aint familiar with. I have and would again play at his table.
I am not excusing his behaviour which needs to be addressed, and that is why I think he needs to be told how this incident affected another person.

Badgering and yelling at a player for most of a slot is very different than a negative attitude or getting snippy over a rules argument. You’re also describing it as a recurring (no matter how infrequent) pattern of behavior.

If he needs to be in his comfort zone to avoid the risk of this kind of outburst he should stay away from GMing public events, and stick to GMing home games with people familiar with his habits.