So, you know, I'm totally ninja'd by a lot, again. Ah, well, things are normal again. Not editing this post much, though (just adding a line at the top and the bottom). :)
Should have edited my post sooner. But at least now I'm saving space. So, tell me then, why does Lamashtu consider Pazuzu more of a threat to her than Desna? Desna is a full-fledged goddess, and actually HAS gone down to Abyss to smack some demons around, while Pazuzu is "merely" a demon lord.
You know what else doesn't make sense? My sister's fear of roaches. I mean - it's a roach. It can't bite you, it can't hurt you, at worst you might get a little sick... if you play with it for a while and don't wash your hands afterwords. But you know my sister will gladly deal with a much dog, which is far more dangerous over-all, than a roach any day of the week, and she's not even remotely scared of the large, hairy things with pointy teeth, but she's totally frightened of the small, scuttling thing that literally has no ability to harm her. Bizarre, huh?
Also, am I the only one here who supports the idea of player characters killing demon lords? I mean, that spoiler you showed only supports the notion that the heroes are exceptions like those four or five other people in the history of Golarion. Or at least, they should be treated as such.
Could be. A lot of folks were put off by the "EVERYTHING CAN BE KILLED" mentality of 3.5 era.
Ignore Gorby (or hug him) as he's had a tough day, I hear.
*Offers Gorbacz a hug*No, you're not the only one, however reducing it to "let me use my swords to kill things at any level" v. "no one wants killable things" is a false dichotomy. I, personally, agree with the idea that deities are able to be taken down... but it's rare and difficult (except, probably, by other deities). For example (using mythology as a base), in Grecian mythology, deities could be murdered with Golden Centaur blood which they couldn't find or perceive no matter how much they tried. But there was a marked scarcity of centaurs... much less golden centaurs (there might have only been one, I don't recall right now), and, that rare creature, knowing its own worth, would go to extreme lengths to keep itself hidden. It's not visible to deities, too low on the totem pole to register for legend lore or vision (Centaurs aren't 11th level or higher), but is tougher and more skilled, innately, than most humans are, just by being alive. Now place that one centaur in the middle of (presumed) vast tracts of forest where it can hide and where most creatures leave it alone for various reasons, but it's really hard to get to.
Think of it similarly to artifact (lesser or greater): they can be destroyed, but it requires a special series of unusual circumstances, most of which is beyond the ken of most mortals. I fully believe that the players should be able to do epic, great things... but I really don't think they should be able to do so automatically. They need to perform research, work hard, and undertake epic quests to get there.
Also, I disagree with two other things put forth above:
1) that epic (or greater) NPCs negate the importance of the players
2) that Forgotten Realms and Golarion are similar
For the first, that's simply not true. Feel free to flip through these very forums, and you'll find lots of ways that high level characters are limited... and it's even more true in Pathfinder for casters than 3.X (where you could easily get infinite wishes by 9th-11th level with most casters, or 15th level with most other characters). Golarion is littered (in history) with high-level NPCs who've run nations and fought and effectively stagnated because they can't reach farther than they currently have, meaning that new people are needed to do more things of import, because those high-level NPCs are dead or completely tied up right now (or are the villains). Effectively these NPCs are great, and create a powerful background, but in no way negate the importance of the PCs any more than Presidents, congressmen, tyrants, and other rulers of nations negate the importance of skilled assassins. Each have their own place, with the difference that in the game, unlike real life, the latter have a decent chance of actually becoming the former (or greater) if they're good enough. Similarly epic or near-epic NPCs that ascend or have ascended to divinity also aren't a problem here: they're now deities, and the only impact they'll have on play is through their churches or direct (literally "divine") intervention, like any other deity, but serving as an example that the PCs can follow*.
* This is outside of an unusual campaign that specifically alters this assumption, of course.
For the second, while there are a number of similarities (in that there is a potentially-dynamic - though still static - set of interconnected nations and a broad over-arching pantheon that all recognize), there's a large number of differences in both tone and presentation. I can see that people could look at similarities, but they don't feel the same at all.
Also yeah: the Deities and Demigods just felt so, terribly wrong. I'm all about Epic/Mythic rules, and, though I love the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (and epic level in general), but it's a terrible piece of garbage for balance purposes. I'm heartened to hear that Paizo is thinking about it!
I do get what you mean here, but I wasn't saying literally that Golarion IS similar to Forgotten Realms. I was simply reminded of both cases 1 and 2 and they happened to both be in the FR campaign setting. And I actually agree with you that you can't just walk up to Abraxas/Deskari/demon lord and stab him in the face. There needs to be some way to lower his/her/it's defenses and such and THEN, at the climax, have the epic final battle.
And yeah, I guess James made a good point with the Mythic levels and the Immortal system needing to stay separate.
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There are several demon lords who qualify as "badass." In that they're only a LITTLE bit shy of being full on deities themselves. Pazuzu is one of them. So are Cyth-V'sug and Nocticula and a few others. These demon lords are essentially one plot point away from becoming new deities,
Ooh, Cyth-V'sug is one of my favorites! Very cool.
Although Abraxas and Haagenti are also right up there, and, Haagenti's case, being the patron demon lord of a new base character class can't hurt with the recruitment! (Same with Mestama and witches, I imagine.)
Wait, isn't that kinda troubling to hear from a player perspective? Also, isn't Gyronna also a goddess of witches and hags? (if that is the case, she might be stopping Mestama from ascending)
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Wait, isn't that kinda troubling to hear from a player perspective?
Nah, there's also Norgorber as a patron of alchemy. :)
Does seem that there aren't a whole lot of *nice* patrons of alchemy, now that you mention it...
Maybe Brig, goddess of innovation, and, of course, Nethys, particularly in Nex, might have a devoted following of Alchemists.
Also, isn't Gyronna also a goddess of witches and hags? (if that is the case, she might be stopping Mestama from ascending)
True, and quite a few of the standard gods could be seen as having a witch-friendly theme (Desna, Calistria, Lamashtu, Nethys, etc.).
I never considered any plane otherwise. They are all expanding, since the Universe, or Multiverse itself, is.
In my game, visitors can come from other planets. That means the PMP is not just one flat realm, but billions of galaxies, expanding like ours. Other planes exist co-terminus, like the Plane of Shadow, which then must be similarly laid out.
I've never heard of boundaries put on the Astral Plane, so there's that.
I understand that Hell has nine layers, but who says they don't reach on forever in each direction, or that the layers are on top of each other at all?
When you're talking about dimensions, infinite space is almost a granted. Think of it: these spaces exist in and around one another in the first place. Who says they have any beginning or end, or even understandable geometries?
Sounds silly to me. Maybe my problem is that I have not read the Inner World Guide completely, or that I do not have some of the early 3.5 supplements. But if I had, I would not abide by the notion of one plane expanding while the others remain static. It's cool in a medieval kind of way, but just doesn't jibe with my own cosmology.
Actually, the reason I call them "Mythic" rules and not "Epic" rules is because what we come up with is GUARANTEED to be different than a simple remake of the 3rd edition epic rules.
At this point, all I can promise is that a level cap will be in effect. Not sure what that level cap will be, but that's the single greatest error the 3rd edition epic rules made, and I'm not interested in making that mistake.
I'm playing in a caster-focused Dragonlance campaign in mythic levels. We ended up having to ditch the 3e spellcasting rules and house rule many other epic rules and items.
We expanded spell levels from 1-9 to 1-18. Coming up with balanced higher level spells to fill these spell levels is very difficult. Evocation and conjuration are the easiest schools to scale up to these higher levels. Metamagic tends to fill these slots. I think max level is 40 (CR could keep going of course). I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with.
We do more talking than fighting. The threats we deal with tend to be of the planar variety. You know the Dragonlance setting. Once you've passed level 20, there are few threats left on Krynn. When we do have a fight though, it is terrifying. I imagine that's what demon lord fights would be like too. Sure, any party of that level can afford the resurrections, but there are so many problems beyond party death to worry about. Ending a Runelord's life or toppling the Jade Regent is epic in the traditional sense of the word; altering the course of demigods and the gods themselves is another story.
To put this post a bit more on the topic of this thread, our group was recently offered the job of joining a super powerful paladin into the depths of the Abyss to rescue some lady. Yeah...we weren't powerful enough to do that undertaking at the time (level 24) and wished him luck. Getting that level of insanity into a mythic campaign while keeping things fun and balanced and believable is challenging, but rewarding. I wish you luck James and I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with, no matter how far out it may be.