Scrollmaster (wizard archetype)
I'm a little confused with this. As far as I know casting a spell from a scroll already works exactly as this ability.
Now, I've re-read pathfinder's rules regarding scrolls, and I can't find any relevant change (from 3.x) to the rules on how scrolls work.
Am I missing something?
Apart from the fact that scrolls, like any other item except staves have fixed caster level when created and set their saving throw DC using lowest possible ability modifier that would be required to cast the spell?
10th level Wizard with Intelligence of 28 (+9 bonus) using 1st level scroll of charm person will cast it at CL 1 and with saving throw DC 11 (10+ spell level 1 + 0 for ability modifier of Int 11 - minimum needed to use 1st level spell).
The same Wizard being scrollmaster can cast the same spell from the same scroll at CL 10, with saving throw DC of 20.
Apart from the fact that scrolls, like any other item except staves have fixed caster level when created and set their saving throw DC using lowest possible ability modifier that would be required to cast the spell?
10th level Wizard with Intelligence of 28 (+9 bonus) using 1st level scroll of charm person will cast it at CL 1 and with saving throw DC 11 (10+ spell level 1 + 0 for ability modifier of Int 11 - minimum needed to use 1st level spell).
The same Wizard being scrollmaster can cast the same spell from the same scroll at CL 10, with saving throw DC of 20.
Except that is not the case. Scrolls don't work like that.
From he rules concerning scrolls:
"Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast."
Notice that the minimum caster level part is there simply because you can activate a scroll without having the required caster level to cast the spell itself.
By the rules, when you use a spell from a scroll it works exactly as if
you had cast it yourself (DC, caster level, feats etc), or at the minimum requirements (if you couldn't normally cast it).
Except that is not the case. Scroll don't work like that.From he rules concerning scrolls:
"Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast."
Notice that the minimum caster level part is there simply because you can activate a scroll withouth having the required caster level to cast the spell itself.
By the rules, when you use a spell from a scroll it works exactly as if
you had cast it yourself.
No it doesn't. It says assume the sroll spell's caster level. That means the spell was scribed onto the scroll at a given level. That level affects the price. The part I bolded above indicates you can set it higher to get a better effect from the scroll. There would be no reason to do so if it worked the way you espouse. You would never want a higher scroll caster level.
When it says you cast it as normal, it means it takes the same amount of time as casting it from memory, has the same range (as if it were cast by the scriber at that level), has the same effects (as if it were cast by the scriber at that level). Since the scriber is not there, there's no stat bonus on the DC.
That's why a Cure Light Wounds scroll for a CL 1 is a lot cheaper than a CL 10, you get more healing from the CL 10 version. Nowhere in there does it say it's cast as if YOU are casting it. It's the scriber who's casting it into the scroll, you are simply activating it.
"There would be no reason to do so if it worked the way you espouse. You would never want a higher scroll caster level."
Yes there would.
example:
a 7th level wizard could prefer using a cone of cold scroll (11th) than a cone of cold scroll (9th). That's why the costs are different.
"That's why a Cure Light Wounds scroll for a CL 1 is a lot cheaper than a CL 10, you get more healing from the CL 10 version. Nowhere in there does it say it's cast as if YOU are casting it. It's the scriber who's casting it into the scroll, you are simply activating it."
Nope. One is more expensive than the other because that's the way you have to avoid a 1st lvl cleric carrying 2 cure light wound (cl 10th) or a 5th level wizard carrying a cone of cold (cl 15th)
My point is that's not the way scrolls worked in 3.x.
Now if pathfinder wants to treat them differently, they need clarification on that.
Yes there would.example:
a 7th level wizard could prefer using a cone of cold scroll (11th) than a cone of cold scroll (9th). That's why the costs are different.
No there wouldn't. Per your interpretation, they would result in exactly the same effects if activated by the 7th level wizard. It would just be stupidly more expensive to have the 11th level cone of cold scroll. In other words, you get the same benefit for the cheapest possible scroll under your interpretation that you do for the most expensive possible scroll.
"That's why a Cure Light Wounds scroll for a CL 1 is a lot cheaper than a CL 10, you get more healing from the CL 10 version. Nowhere in there does it say it's cast as if YOU are casting it. It's the scriber who's casting it into the scroll, you are simply activating it."
Nope. One is more expensive than the other because that's the way you have to avoid a 1st lvl cleric carrying 2 cure light wound (cl 10th) or a 5th level wizard carrying a cone of cold (cl 15th)
Under your interpretation, nobody would ever create a cure light wounds (CL 10) scroll. It would be idiotic to make something more expensive just to gain the same benefit of creating it as a CL 1.
My point is that's not the way scrolls worked in 3.x.
Now if pathfinder wants to treat them differently, they need clarification on that.
Actually, yes it was. Scrolls worked exactly like this in 3.x.
"No there wouldn't. Per your interpretation, they would result in exactly the same effects if activated by the 7th level wizard. It would just be stupidly more expensive to have the 11th level cone of cold scroll. In other words, you get the same benefit for the cheapest possible scroll under your interpretation that you do for the most expensive possible scroll. "
no.
Said wizard with the first scroll would cast the spell with a 11th cas level effect
second scroll as a 9th level effect.
HE would only use his own caster level, if the item had an inferior one, say acid arrow (cl 3rd). He could cast this with a 5th caster level.
"Actually, yes it was. Scrolls worked exactly like this in 3.x. "
Excep that they didn't
google around, see for yourself.
From the magic item section of the rules:
Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
From the same section of the magic item rules:
Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.
*sigh*
One last try.
Using Staves: Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff.This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder's ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than those from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependent on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are also harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target's spell resistance.
Scrolls <> Staves
Scrolls = Other Magical Item
I do admit to an error though, I forgot about the scroll assuming the minimum caster stat to cast the spell. So a 1st level spell has +0 added to the DC, an 8th level spell has a +4 assumed on the DC from the stat.
From the magic item section of the rules:
Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Thanks, I was looking for that entry, couldn't find it, so posted the Staves entry as well.
I guess I've never seen this Hogarth.
Thanks for sharing it.
A doubt then:
What would happen to the Spell DC if a wizard had scribed a spell into a scroll and decided to use it later on?
Say a fireball spell and said wizard has 18 int.
His normal dc would be 10+3 spell+4 int =17
casting the same spell from a scroll he had created earlier in the week his dc would be
10+3+1 = 14
Is that the correct RAW interpretation?
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A doubt then:
What would happen to the Spell DC is a wizard had scribed a spell into a scroll and decided to use it later on?
Say a fireball spell and said wizard has 18 int.
His normal dc would be 10+3 spell+4 int =17
casting the same spell from a scroll he had created earlier in the week his dc would be
10+3+1 = 14Is that the correct RAW interpretation?
Yup. That is exactly correct. However, the caster level of the scroll can be adjusted upwards (to a maximum of the wizard's caster level) at the crafter's discretion. Normally, a store-bought scroll of fireball deals 5d6 damage, but one crafted at CL 10th would deal 10d6 damage (though the save DC would remain the same).
A doubt then:
What would happen to the Spell DC is a wizard had scribed a spell into a scroll and decided to use it later on?
Say a fireball spell and said wizard has 18 int.
His normal dc would be 10+3 spell+4 int =17
casting the same spell from a scroll he had created earlier in the week his dc would be
10+3+1 = 14Is that the correct RAW interpretation?
Note it says it assumes unless the scriber chooses otherwise.
Since it's a guy using his own scroll, he chooses the level he scribes it at. As to the stat, since you know the stat for the scriber, you use that.
The assumption is based on finding or buying a scroll. If you make one yourself, you know the level and stat you scribed it at.
It's a lot like the wand thing, if you find one, it's assumed to have a certain number of charges used, but if you make one, then it's at full when you finish it.
Fatespinner and I disagree obviously. :) I take the assumption of min stats as the 'quick rules', with specifically created scrolls overriding it. However, it's more of a GM call to me. Obviously Fatespinner and I call it different.
The effects of spell scrolls are based on the SCROLL, not the caster (unless you are a scroll master).
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Fatespinner and I disagree obviously. :) I take the assumption of min stats as the 'quick rules', with specifically created scrolls overriding it. However, it's more of a GM call to me. Obviously Fatespinner and I call it different.
The magic item rules pretty specifically state that "Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."
Otherwise there would be some support for buying scrolls at a higher DC. I mean, if scrolls CAN be made by a guy with 30 INT, with a higher DC, they should cost more, right? It doesn't have anything built in for accomodating this, though. How much does +1 DC increase the market value? And does the same apply to wands as well? If my 30 INT Wizard scribes a scroll of charm person and decides to sell it later because he doesn't need it, how much more money does he get? Or does he get the same amount that Mr. 11 INT gets? In which case, the future end user of that scroll just got one hell of a bargain!
I understand where you're coming from, mdt, but I just don't see your interpretation officially supported in any mechanical sense. :)
The only way I know of to boost the save DC on a scroll is by use of Heighten Spell. A fireball heightened to 9th level, for example, is DC 10 + 9 + 4 (minimum 19 INT to cast 9th level spells) = 23.
Thanks guys for the clarifications and patience.
Fatespinner and I disagree obviously. :) I take the assumption of min stats as the 'quick rules', with specifically created scrolls overriding it. However, it's more of a GM call to me. Obviously Fatespinner and I call it different.The magic item rules pretty specifically state that "Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."
Otherwise there would be some support for buying scrolls at a higher DC. I mean, if scrolls CAN be made by a guy with 30 INT, with a higher DC, they should cost more, right? It doesn't have anything built in for accomodating this, though. How much does +1 DC increase the market value? And does the same apply to wands as well? If my 30 INT Wizard scribes a scroll of charm person and decides to sell it later because he doesn't need it, how much more money does he get? Or does he get the same amount that Mr. 11 INT gets? In which case, the future end user of that scroll just got one hell of a bargain!
I understand where you're coming from, mdt, but I just don't see your interpretation officially supported in any mechanical sense. :)
The only way I know of to boost the save DC on a scroll is by use of Heighten Spell. A fireball heightened to 9th level, for example, is DC 10 + 9 + 4 (minimum 19 INT to cast 9th level spells) = 23.
Oooh, I never realized this. We've been using the crafter's mod if it was crafted by the party. Thanks!