So my friend and I were sitting down discussing the Rogue class and a couple questions came up. 1) Can you sneak attack with a 2-handed weapon (such as a greatsword). I didn't see anything in the book against it; however this just seems kind of odd to me. 2) Is it possible to sneak attack with the Flame Blade? I don't know because it's a weapon totally created from magic. Answers would be helpful, thanks!
Yes you can. You can even sneak attack will spells(non weapon) as long as they do hp damage, and require an attack roll such as scorching ray.
Awesome, thanks for the response. I didn't know that spells could be used to make a sneak attack with, so thanks for the information!
Awesome, thanks for the response. I didn't know that spells could be used to make a sneak attack with, so thanks for the information!
That's one of my favorite tactics to use as a DM. I have a Sorcerer/Rogue hit a player with a spell such as Acid Splash. PCs who make their Spellcraft checks get confused when cantrips hit them for 10+ points in damage, but it's all legal. Of course, as a ranged attack, once the PC is no longer flat-footed, the tactic stops working until the rogue can find another way to deny the PCs their dex bonus (and thus sneak attack).
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Yes you can. You can even sneak attack will spells(non weapon) as long as they do hp damage, and require an attack roll such as scorching ray.
I've seen this "as long as they do hp damage" point mentioned a couple of times, but am not sure where it is coming from. In 3.5, the requirement was that the spell have an an attack roll; if it didn't normally do damage, the sneak attack damage was negative energy damage. This wasn't based on SRD, but came into the system from supplemental rules and therefore wasn't universal. Is there a specific statement about the spell needing to do HP damage in PF?
Well I got to looking into it and I'm pretty sure that normally the only time sneak attack would work with a spell is if it were an attack roll. If the spell only had to do hp damage it would make the Arcane Trickster's 10th level ability useless.
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Well I got to looking into it and I'm pretty sure that normally the only time sneak attack would work with a spell is if it were an attack roll. If the spell only had to do hp damage it would make the Arcane Trickster's 10th level ability useless.
It def'ly has to have an attack roll. HP only (fireball) doesn't do the trick for standard SA. I'm looking for the source of the attack roll=Yes AND HP=yes idea.
It def'ly has to have an attack roll. HP only (fireball) doesn't do the trick for standard SA. I'm looking for the source of the attack roll=Yes AND HP=yes idea.
Hmm. So I just searched for every occurrence of sneak attack, and I'm no longer entirely convinced that it works with spells. I've found these two pieces, which I believe are what people are using:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
The 'attack' comes from the description of the sneak attack itself, and the damage I believe comes (perhaps in error) from the fact that monsters are typically immune to both crits and SA, or neither. This then leads people "can crit" implies "can SA". That isn't actually stated in the RAW.
The real question is if the word "attack" includes "touch attack." We know it includes "ranged attack", but only under certain conditions. This is actually of interest to me - gosh but touch attacks are easier to land than normal attacks. A level 1 sorcerer/level x rogue who knows shocking grasp could almost automatically land 4 or 5 sneak attacks a day (the touch AC when flatfooted is typically 10, and low compared to flanking)...
The description of the arcane trickster seems to imply that spells typically don't do SA damage, at least in the developer's brains...
Developer
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An attack is something that requires an attack roll.
Some spells are attacks, like ray spells. Some spells are not, like fireball.
The AT capstone lets the latter get sneak attack, it's not suddenly that all spells have access to something they did not, but that some (like fireball or magic missile) now do.
I'll try to dig up some of the dev posts on this issue, but spells that deal hp damage and require an attack roll definitely get SA. Need to see where the hp req comes from.
Well I got to looking into it and I'm pretty sure that normally the only time sneak attack would work with a spell is if it were an attack roll. If the spell only had to do hp damage it would make the Arcane Trickster's 10th level ability useless.It def'ly has to have an attack roll. HP only (fireball) doesn't do the trick for standard SA. I'm looking for the source of the attack roll=Yes AND HP=yes idea.
I'm looking for just the HP one, the attack roll came from Complete Arcane or mage i forget which, followed by the spellwarp sniper in complete scoundrel.
The message said basically if it it didn't do hp damage, say it was a ray of enfeeblement, then it would default to negitive energy. If it was something like cure light wounds, it would default to positive energy.
Any word on this? Since people seem to think "attack" includes "touch attack", it's kinda seeming like a rogue10/sorc1 might find plenty of situations where sneak attacking with a touch of fatigue (flanking, perhaps?) is the right answer...over, and over, and over again.
Yes, if you have to roll to hit in any form then you can use all the goodies that go with weapons. Like Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, and Sneak Attack. These are typically rays, but also work with Shocking Grasp and similar spells.
The capstone ability for the Arcane Trickster allows you to also get sneak attack damage on ANY spell that does damage such as FireBall.
Any word on this?
I don't think this is stated in PF rules, but in 3.5 there's this.
Note that it doesn't include ability penalties.WEAPONLIKE SPELLS
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deal damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses.
SNEAK ATTACKS
Any weaponlike spell can be used to make a sneak attack, including ranged spells used against targets within 30 feet (just as with any other ranged sneak attack).
A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue/3rd-level wizard who makes a successful sneak attack with Melf’s acid arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage for the sneak attack (with the spell continuing to deal acid damage as normal in subsequent rounds). The exception is spells that deal energy drain or ability damage, which deal negative energy damage on a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 5th-level rogue/8th-level sorcerer who makes a successful enervation sneak attack bestows 1d4 negative levels and deals 3d6 points of negative energy damage.
If a sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the spell damage is doubled, but not the extra damage (as with any sneak attack critical hit).
So it doesn't work with Touch of fatigue, since it doesn't deal any kind of damage. But most of the time, it wouldn't be a good idea. Each attack with that spell takes a standard action, and thus it's much less interesting than a full attack. Chill touch is a legal and overall better choice, since it can be used a few times with one casting (whether the SA damage is negative energy, cold damage or both is up to the DM apparently, though both makes more sense).
Also, still from that book, volley spells like Scorching ray only deal SA damage on the first hit.That leaves the question of whether you can deal additional positive/negative energy damage to heal a living/undead target.
That's one of my favorite tactics to use as a DM. I have a Sorcerer/Rogue hit a player with a spell such as Acid Splash. PCs who make their Spellcraft checks get confused when cantrips hit them for 10+ points in damage, but it's all legal. Of course, as a ranged attack, once the PC is no longer flat-footed, the tactic stops working until the rogue can find another way to deny the PCs their dex bonus (and thus sneak attack).
A rogue can do it without arcanist classes. Just get the minor magic rogue talent.
Of course, with enough arcanist classes, you get nice tools to help you hide, like invisibility and it's big brother.
But most of the time, it wouldn't be a good idea. Each attack with that spell takes a standard action, and thus it's much less interesting than a full attack.
But against a high-AC target you probably have a much greater chance to connect with one touch attack than either or both attacks in a full attack (consider a CR-10 fighter with magical platemail and shield, AC circa 30-35, touch AC closer to 13). Rogues don't pick up that third attack until level 15, after all...
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So it doesn't work with Touch of fatigue, since it doesn't deal any kind of damage. But most of the time, it wouldn't be a good idea. Each attack with that spell takes a standard action, and thus it's much less interesting than a full attack. Chill touch is a legal and overall better choice, since it can be used a few times with one casting (whether the SA damage is negative energy, cold...
They had an example in ultimate magic where enervation would give hit point damage. I would suggest that any sneak attack damage should be considered hit point damage of the type the primary attack is.
Also, produce flame is a nice touch attack which is good for sneak attack. The minutes/ level duration makes it good and you can throw it.
Honestly... I think the alchemist (vivisectionist) and the inquisitor have taken so much of the rogue's stuff that there is little reason to be a rogue at this point. Particularly if you are inclined to using a bit of magic.
Honestly... I think the alchemist (vivisectionist) and the inquisitor have taken so much of the rogue's stuff that there is little reason to be a rogue at this point. Particularly if you are inclined to using a bit of magic.
Might be true... And the ninja's coming for the killing blow.
Well, that's not the only class that deserves houserules.
