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OK, so I got a little impatient... tell me what you think. My intent is to create a mechanic where the BoED VoP can be modeled, and still have room for variation and adaptability to enable the Vow to be something that most any Class or Alignment can take advantage of.
Instead of Chakras, I chose to use the term "Meridian" as it is (arguably) a bit more setting-agnostic but holds the same meaning. I also dipped a bit into Incarnum, and came back out with 10 Meridians, more or less coinciding with Body Slots. Each Meridian has an equivalent Magic Item slot, as well as a more-or-less descriptive Foci Affinity, and a linked attribute. Further, each meridian has a baseline effect that occurs as Meridian are opened.
At First level, a VoP character opens one Meridian, at second level, they can chose a single Foci. At Third level, and every Odd-numbered level after that, they open an additional Meridian. Each odd-numbered level, they get a new Foci.
Foci are akin to "items" that are attached to a Meridian. They (normally) have no outward manifestation, but provide extra "stuff" for the Vow-taker. My design intent here is that each Foci will have a favored Meridian, and attaching it to its favored meridian would add an additional advantage, or perhaps attaching it to a non-favored Meridian might inhibit it in some way. Conceivably, a meridian might have significantly different effects depending on which Meridian it is attached to. A meridian with no attached foci provide only their base effect, and no Meridian can have more than one Foci (though that would be a good Feat)
Finally, Meridians have a potency, defined as a "Tier." When the first Meridian is opened, it is a T1. When the second Meridian is opened, and every second one past that, all meridians increase by 1 Tier. As a character walks the path toward enlightenent, their Meridians burn more brightly.
The effect of this will become more clear if you read on...
[I'm not certain how to do Charts in this board, so lets try this...]
Meridian......Slot........Foci Affinity ...................................... Attribute .................Effect
Crown ...........Head ....non-visual perception, mental Stats......Int..............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Feet ...............Feet .....Movement, Mobility, Stability...............Speed..........+5' Enhancement on base speed, +5' per T, up to double
Hands...........Hands.....Attack Rolls, Skill Proficiency ..............Dex.............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Arms .......... Bracers ...Defenses (durability)............................Str..............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Brow..............Eyes.......Vision, Awareness ...............................Wis.............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Shoulders.... Mantle ... Defenses (avoidance), Movement.........Saves..........+1 Resistance Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Throat..........Amulet....Communications, persuasion...............Cha............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Waist............Belts........Physical Stats, survivability..................Con............+1 Enhancement Bonus, +1 per tier past 1
Soul..............robe........Energy resistances (incl +-).................SR...............SR = Character Level +T, min 10th level
Heart............Vest.........Immunities, bodily integrity................DR...............DR that scales with level, min 10th level
The DR granted by the Heart Meridian is defined as:
T4: DR 5/Magic or X
T5: DR 10/Magic or X
T6: DR 10/Magic and X
So those are the Meridians. The first design hurdle I have hit here is that at 20th level, as written, a VoP character will have +6 enhancement bonus on ALL their stats, which strikes me as really bad. Taking a page from the BoED again, I think I want to have each of the Meridians that rovide an Enhancement bonus to be considered T-1 for every one of them past the first. That way, the first one you open will end up providing the highest bonus in the long run. I'm not sure how to best schematize that, however.
Next are Foci.
Foci are divided into three categories, Mind, Body, and Soul. (I'm thinking that if I use Soul here, using it also as a Meridian name is a doubly-poor idea, so again, these are working names right now). Within those categories there should be foci for Offense, Defense, and Utility. Once a Foci is chosen and attached to a Meridian, it should be very hard to "move" it.. though I do not think impossible. A long and expensive ritual, perhaps, or even just a "retraining" option on Leveling up?
I went through the BoED and stripped out all the things it provided the VoP besides what I have above, and looked at them as Foci. As mentioned, my goal is to be able to mimic the VoP from BoED. To that end, I have the following Foci:
1: Mind
a: Offensive
b: Defensive: Mind Shielding
c: Utility: True Seeing
2: Body
a: Offensive: Enhancement bonuses to attacks
b: Defensive: AC bonuses, Endure Elements
c: Utility: Sustenance, Regeneration
3: Soul
a: Offensive
b: Defensive: Deflection to AC, Energy Resistance
c: Utility: Freedom of Movement
That could more or less recreate the BoED VoP. If the Foci are written so that they have sliding values as the PC increases in Tier, and\or added advantages for attaching a Foci to a specific Meridian, you can do things like:
- The Exalted bonus to AC is 3 + Tier. If attached to the Arm meridian, it also provides Natural armor bonus of +1/2 T
- if Sustenance is attached to the Waist Meridian, it becomes Greater Sustenance 2 Tiers later.
- Mind Shielding, if attached to the Crown or Shoulders Foci, provides Mind Blank (eventually)
One of the advantages I see with using Foci and Meridians as a two-tiered schema is not just for its adaptability to suit a wide range of character types, but also to enable a DM to tailor its power level to suit the prevalence of magic in their game. The BoED version of the VoP also provides a raft of Exalted feats that I haven't addressed here, because I don't think that they are really needed besides mentioning in the Vow itself that you get a bonus Exalted feat every other level past the level when the PC took the Vow. I also think that those feats should be expanded from just "exalted" to also include Oracle blessings (where thematically appropriate), possibly feats related to the character's faith (Be they Cleric\Oracle Divine feats, Wildshape\Druid Feats, conceivably even the new Bloodline arcana, if it was appropriate to the concept), or even replace them with a Domain.
Foci and the VoP can clearly provide characters with a huge advantage in terms of having "equipment" that can't be removed, sundered, or run out of charges and ammo, so it is a REALLY good idea, I think to have a mechanic by which they can be lost, perhaps not physically, but a Code of Conduct restriction, or even making them vulnerable to Spellblights or perhaps Meridians "clogging" due to Ability Damage or Drain, effecting the appropriate attribute-linked meridian, and any foci attached to it.
Vow of Poverty is not there to give you a mechanic to play a "Flavorful Monk that is otherwise just as or even close to as balanced as the rest of the party with their magical items."
It's there so you can take a vow to suffer as those with extreme poverty do. I still think it's a great thing that you get "anything" from it.
The only issue that I have with the Vows if anything, is that I think it would be nice if a Cleric/Paladin/Holy Vindicator/Etc who took it gained a bonus to their channeling/turn undead/command undead abilities based on what Vow they took and how their Deity reacts to it.
Also, I think the requirement that they can't hold an item worth more then 50gp is crazy. "My son, please take this holy relic from our temple to the temple in the far off lands of XXXXX so it may do the most good." at that moment losing every bonus and considering to have broken your Vow.. That's just harsh.
I agree with being unable to own anything over 50gp and having simple items and enough money to afford food/drink/loding, but if someone pours a potion of healing down your throat because you are dying you should not have to feel shamed that you broke your vow, nor should you lose the bonuses..
Vow of Poverty as with every other Vow should be heavily roleplayed and heavily moderated by the GM to enforce it.
I for one am glad with what they did to all of the Vows. :)
If you want a Monk that can be powerful or "Keep up with other party members" while adhering to a Vow of Poverty, either work up some house rules and propose them to your GM, work with your GM to come up with a compromise, or hope for some new variant to come out in the books that offer you the flexibility you need.
Being Poor in itself should never make you powerful enough to keep up with the rest of the party members who have magical items, don't care how much dedication/purification of spirit/whatever you have.
Vow of Poverty is not there to give you a mechanic to play a "Flavorful Monk that is otherwise just as or even close to as balanced as the rest of the party with their magical items."
It's there so you can take a vow to suffer as those with extreme poverty do. I still think it's a great thing that you get "anything" from it.
If it is truly the intent of the designers is to make the player to suffer for picking a flavorful and iconic character concept than this completely stupid game design philosophy needs to be called out. I honestly don't get the mindset of someone who can look at the monk and say that the player who wants to play something approaching an actual monk should suffer and lag behind everyone with magic items.
Could you imagine trying to play a monk with this feat who wants to set an example of how material goods aren't necessary for spiritual well being?
Setting: Cavern, former Ancient White Dragon's Lair
Fighter: "Look at this gold! We're rich, rich I tell you!"
Thief: "Alright, hey check out the size of these gems!"
Wizard: "A spellbook of the ancients, full of lore and power lost to the ages."
Cleric: "The gods have sent their just reward for our slaying of this great evil."
VoP Monk: "Look not to material goods, we should distribute this stolen hoard to ease the suffering in the region. True power comes from within anyways."
Fighter: "...What? True power, you were the one we had to spend 5 minutes layering spells on to get ready to fight."
Thief: "Yeah, and what about that ambush on the way here? Your 'true power' didn't last 10 seconds against that Render.
Wizard: "Yes, and what about those tomes you wished to read? Or those wands you 'suggested' we buy? Was that part of your 'true power from within'?"
Cleric: "Mock not another's beliefs, if he wishes to ease the suffering in the region that is good and just, we will give him some gems to sell and distribute to the people while we divide the rest."
Monk: "Thank you, but my power comes from my faith and I will have no wealth, I cannot bring those gems to the poor in the region."
Everyone in the party: "...."
Monk: "Would you take it upon yourselves to take this gold to those who could use it?"
Fighter: "Hang on a minute, you want us to give up all of our gold and bring it to the poor ourselves, you won't help at all? Guys, quick conference here."
A few minutes later
Fighter: "Sorry Monk, it isn't going to work out, we appreciate all you do like... well all that you do, but our adventuring party expects you to hold your own weight without the hypocritical talks about giving up material wealth, so it just isn't going to work. Here you can take your share with you to the poor... wait, never mind you can't. Why don't you go tell them about your 'inner power', I'm sure it'll work out well."
The Vows are not only for Monks.. Monks just actually get something for them unlike everybody else.
If a player in my game wanted a Vow of Poverty type character, I would either point them to the Book of Exalted Deeds (shaving off the prerequisite which makes it impossible for nonhumans to take the feat at first level), or, I would simply say: "Keep track of your share of the loot. Whenever you're in town, you will donate all of it to some cause which helps the needy, saving a handful of coins to meet your basic survival needs. You get an identical amount of 'virtual' loot which you can, at any time of significant rest or downtime, spend on 'virtual' magic items or even permanent spells. Try to game the system, and you lose it."
The Vows are not only for Monks.. Monks just actually get something for them unlike everybody else.
that's why I used the schema that I did. It allows the Vow to be used by all\any classes. Playing a VoP without getting some kind of mechanical support is a death sentence to that PC, and possibly other members of your party, because of all the resources they need to be viable. In fact, if the holder of the Vow is as conscientious as they are meant to be, there is an argument to be made that they would not endanger the party members by causing such a draw on their resources. A large part of the purpose of the vow is being self-sufficient, and without mechanical support, that's just not the case.
Having said that, there is also the issue that there is a difference between "ownership" and "use" -- the ancient relic handed to a monk by the grandmaster of his order in order to take it to where it can do the most good, the monk does not OWN it. Nobody can OWN that kind of thing, it is held, protected, or used, but not OWNED. I would argue the same thing for any intelligent items. A good-aligned PC would never consider "owning" an intelligent anything, be it organic or magic. It would be seen as a partnership or an alliance. Granted, this is a slippery slope... can this be used to get around the limitations of the Vow via semantics, possibly. I'd still allow it.
BUT, I don't know that this is the intended thrust of the thread. My understanding was that this thread was meant to be a discussion of how to get the Vow to work, not whether or not a Vow is something that we NEED to have.
"Voluntary poverty"
Among some individuals, poverty is considered a necessary or desirable condition, which must be embraced to reach certain spiritual, moral, or intellectual states. Poverty is often understood to be an essential element of renunciation in religions such as Buddhism (only for monks, not for lay persons) and Jainism, whilst in Roman Catholicism it is one of the evangelical counsels.
Certain religious orders also take a vow of extreme poverty. For example, the Franciscan orders have traditionally foregone all individual and corporate forms of ownership. While individual ownership of goods and wealth is forbidden for Benedictines, following the Rule of St. Benedict, the monastery itself may possess both goods and money, and throughout history some monasteries have become very rich.[citation needed]
In this context of religious vows, poverty may be understood as a means of self-denial to place oneself at the service of others; Pope Honorius III wrote in 1217 that the Dominicans "lived a life of voluntary poverty, exposing themselves to innumerable dangers and sufferings, for the salvation of others".
Benedict XVI distinguishes “poverty chosen” (the poverty of spirit proposed by Jesus), and “poverty to be fought” (unjust and imposed poverty). He considers that the moderation implied in the former favors solidarity, and is a necessary condition so as to fight effectively to eradicate the abuse of the latter
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Taking a Vow of Poverty is a way of life, a choice to give up what you can have. In a fantasy setting I don't see how giving a major feature of any adventurer "money and magic items" should equal any sort of compensation, let alone enough to contend with the very thing you are choosing to give up.
In a Modern setting, if someone chose to be poor and never wield a gun because it was simply too expensive and violated their beliefs and life choices, I would not give them the ability to shoot magic bullets from their fingers.
Example:
High Priest: My son, I am so proud of you that you have decided to take up the vow of poverty to spread awareness about this spreading illness that threatens to take our land. Not many have the strength of faith that it takes to take it upon themselves to give up the things that seem to make life easier for everyone.
Monk: It is an honor father, I have the strength of spirit to make it through this difficult test of faith. I take solace in knowing that for my sacrifices my deity will reward me with everything that I need to survive in the world, making the items I give up trivial in comparison.
High Priest: Er... No my son, your deity shall not provide you this strength. You are tasking yourself with this burden upon your own volition. You should take pride in knowing that the deity will look down on you and appreciate your efforts.
Monk: Wait, you mean I won't be able to compare to other adventurers with their magic gear? What is the point of this Vow then?
High Priest: Surely you jest, this Vow is to take on the suffering that plagues the poor. You must have understood this before undertaking such a noble goal. Here my son, take these simple provisions. Your robes, sandals, backpack, bedroll, and a weeks provisions to aid your travels. I also entrust to you a relic bestowed upon us by our god and kept in the holiest of places.
Monk: I thank you father, I am sure this relic will aid me in my travels and grant me a boon that will keep me safe in this world and aid me in the fight against evil. It shall keep back the undead hordes and allow me to smite all evil I encounter!
High Priest: No... it is but a simple pendant of exquisite design. Tis' the one thing that you may keep with you upon undertaking your vow. Tis' not magical, nor divine, it shall not repel the undead masses nor grant you any magical boons. It is but a symbol of your dedication and faith.
Monk: Wow... Poverty sucks.
High Priest: I am glad you seem to understand your choice so well. It shall aid you in the tough times to come....
The archetypal precedents for a simple non-material life granting immense spiritual strength are myriad. Notably, these are the archetypes the monk is based on in the first place. D&D is furthermore a fantasy setting where magic is an active force, and the gods grant boons to those they favor.
Moreover, your conception requires no mechanics. Once the designers have decided to make a mechanic rewarding a character for ascetic vows, basic design principles dictate the reward should be commensurate with the sacrifice.
The archetypal precedents for a simple non-material life granting immense spiritual strength are myriad. Notably, these are the archetypes the monk is based on in the first place. D&D is furthermore a fantasy setting where magic is an active force, and the gods grant boons to those they favor.
Moreover, your conception requires no mechanics. Once the designers have decided to make a mechanic rewarding a character for ascetic vows, basic design principles dictate the reward should be commensurate with the sacrifice.
+1
What do monk players want out of the concept of a monk that forsakes wealth?
No taxes.
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The option to choose ability scores to imitate the big six should also be an option. They may end up weaker than a regular monk, but it should be survivable.
Bonuses will definitely be on the "tree" of options. I was originally going to make those the "trunks" of the Body and Mind trees and have the more esoteric abilities branch off from those, but I'm seriously reconsidering that now.
Going to try and shoot for an arrangement that makes it so that one could go all-bonuses if they wish, but they'll lose out on versatility.
I'd be happy to offer my assistance\input if you're interested in a bit of collaboration ...
I'm going to be going really slow on this I'm afraid, since I'm mostly busy with another fan project already.
Then again that doesn't seem to be too much of an issue because...
OK, so I got a little impatient... tell me what you think.
Holy crap. :D
I'm reading over this now!
Please don't start any new flame wars. Let's make something productive out of this.
It's clear the other thread isn't going to go anywhere, with lines being drawn between a false dichotomy of roleplayers vs powergamers and no one really listening to each other.
Fresh start now, and hopefully in a productive direction.
What do monk players want out of the concept of a monk that forsakes wealth?
There's no way we're going to reach a perfect consensus, but if we can find some decent common theme perhaps we can build and codify something flavorful and balanced that would be an easy houserule to sell to our groups, particularly for monk players trying ot sell the idea to their GMs. But first we need to know what we're building towards.
Just my take, not going to pretend it's universal:
A Vow of Poverty monk should give their wealth to the needy. It shouldn't be used as a round-about investment in gear. A VoP monk should not be dependent upon any one piece of expensive magical gear. A VoP monk should gain inherent bonuses as a sort of karmic reward, so that they can keep up with the rest of the party. They should gain some real spiritual benefit for their material sacrifice. A VoP monk can be less powerful overall than a standard monk w/ gear, but he should also have some unique strength over the standard monk, possibly via VoP-specific abilities. Perhaps tying into unique VoP abilities and the allowance for a limited number of simple possessions: A set of otherwise mundane items that become magical/blessed/whatever only when in possession of a VoP monk. Like a walking stick that serves as a quarterstaff and takes on magical properties in their hands, or simple prayer beads that become something more when they wear them. Said items could be things that could come and go easily that the monk should not allow himself to get attatched to or overly dependent on, since they're material things.
I'm honestly leaning toward banning VoP outright at this point. It is far more trouble than it is worth, and this is coming from a DM who allows leadership. . .
What I really want out of VoP is for people to accept that it is what it is.
It's just an option.
I'm honestly...Please don't start any new flame wars. Let's make something productive out of this.
It's clear the other thread isn't going to go anywhere, with lines being drawn between a false dichotomy of roleplayers vs powergamers and no one really listening to each other.
Fresh start now, and hopefully in a productive direction.
What do monk players want out of the concept of a monk that forsakes wealth?
There's no way we're going to reach a perfect consensus, but if we can find some decent common theme perhaps we can build and codify something flavorful and balanced that would be an easy houserule to sell to our groups, particularly for monk players trying ot sell the idea to their GMs. But first we need to know what we're building towards.
Just my take, not going to pretend it's universal:
A Vow of Poverty monk should give their wealth to the needy. It shouldn't be used as a round-about investment in gear. A VoP monk should not be dependent upon any one piece of expensive magical gear. A VoP monk should gain inherent bonuses as a sort of karmic reward, so that they can keep up with the rest of the party. They should gain some real spiritual benefit for their material sacrifice. A VoP monk can be less powerful overall than a standard monk w/ gear, but he should also have some unique strength over the standard monk, possibly via VoP-specific abilities. Perhaps tying into unique VoP abilities and the allowance for a limited number of simple possessions: A set of otherwise mundane items that become magical/blessed/whatever only when in possession of a VoP monk. Like a walking stick that serves as a quarterstaff and takes on magical properties in their hands, or simple prayer beads that become something more when they wear them. Said items could be things that could come and go easily that the monk should not allow himself to get attatched to or overly dependent on, since they're material things.
You allow leadership as written? I ask because every GM I know allows it, but not as written.
Not as written no. But I have less of an issue overall of making leadership work then trying to figure out how to make a VoP monk useful in a campaign, or if not useful at least fun for the player. . .
I always did love the option.
Wait, we're not talking about football?
Spread option or Triple option? :P
Not as written no. But I have less of an issue overall of making leadership work then trying to figure out how to make a VoP monk useful in a campaign, or if not useful at least fun for the player. . .
The you posted the other post made it sound like since you allow the RAW version since it is nonsense to me, that by extension if you block the Vow if proves the Vow is too complicated.
I think leadership is a lot easier to fix than the VoP since the fix will have to vary from group to group for the VoP.
edit:changed "VoW" to "VoP"
Not as written no. But I have less of an issue overall of making leadership work then trying to figure out how to make a VoP monk useful in a campaign, or if not useful at least fun for the player. . .The you posted the other post made it sound like since you allow the RAW version since it is nonsense to me, that by extension if you block the Vow if proves the Vow is too complicated.
I think leadership is a lot easier to fix than the VoW since the fix will have to vary from group to group for the VoW.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm multitasking not intentionally obfuscating.
I just don't see a way to make VoP viable for a pc, and that's why I banned it. If there was a wizard feat, the benefit of which was contingent upon a wizard never casting spells, it would be only slightly more ridiculous then VoP. It would also be keeping VoP and "Find the Path" company in ban-land. :P
You ROLLplayer! I chose the option for flavor! Don't contaminate me with your min/maxing impurity!Spread option or Triple option? :PI always did love the option.
Wait, we're not talking about football?
LOL
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This is not a well-thought out and certainly not playtested, idea, but would allowing all characters, not just VoP monks, to get internal enhancements as if they were slotless maagic items but still taking up the normal slot. For example, a Fighter could spend the cash on training in a set of techniques that increase his strength, as a Belt of Giant Strength. This, because a belt interferes with his stance, effecrively occupies the belt slot but costs him 8000gp, twice what it normally would, but he doesn't ever have to worry about losing his 'gear'.
If the player wanted the "item" to be truly slotless, it would add the original cost again, i.e. be 12000gp.
It is a thought as it seems to address the frequent concerns about the Christmas Tree effect as well as the VoP monk. I'll see if it works when my group plays Pathfinder again.
This is not a well-thought out and certainly not playtested, idea, but would allowing all characters, not just VoP monks, to get internal enhancements as if they were slotless maagic items but still taking up the normal slot. For example, a Fighter could spend the cash on training in a set of techniques that increase his strength, as a Belt of Giant Strength. This, because a belt interferes with his stance, effecrively occupies the belt slot but costs him 8000gp, twice what it normally would, but he doesn't ever have to worry about losing his 'gear'.
If the player wanted the "item" to be truly slotless, it would add the original cost again, i.e. be 12000gp.
It is a thought as it seems to address the frequent concerns about the Christmas Tree effect as well as the VoP monk. I'll see if it works when my group plays Pathfinder again.
Most awesome Paul Watson:
Just so as not to be left out, I thought I'd drop by and peddle my own "Christmas Tree" solution.
I've been using this system in my Council of Thieves campaign and it's working pretty good/makes everyone happy/maintains balance.
There's some links to other similar systems further up the thread if you are interested.
Two points which I think should be considered
1.) Monks should not be the only ones who can take VoP
2.) Anyone who has taken VoP can't afford a weapon and is, therefore, an expert in improvised weapons - improvised weapons should be monk weapons for monks with VoP.
Agreed, completely. That's why I wrote that little experiment as class agnostic as I could.
OK, so I got a little impatient... tell me what you think.Holy crap. :D
I'm reading over this now!
Cool, I look forward to your input!
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I think the biggest issue in this debate comes not from the vow but the game itself since it promotes the need of more wealth and better gear at higher levels to make your character effective which pretty much runs in exact counter to the culture and world that the whole monk concept comes from where the weapons are not as important as the hand that wields them. On this concept though all one can really do is modify the vow so that it gives abilities to the monk so that it can keep pace with the rest of the characters in the party like others have mentioned. On that note I would suggest checking out the video from extra credits on the myth of the gun to give a much better explanation on this whole concept of external power sources focused on in western culture & storytelling vs. internal power sources in eastern culture & storytelling. Link below
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Cool, I look forward to your input!
Finally got some free time. Honestly, I really think the Meridian concept needs its own thread and a lot more attention, because it's really promising as a possible solution for all classes. I never really looked into Incarnum(perhaps unfairly dismissing it) so I don't know how much of this carries over that material, but I'd love to see something along these lines put up with a huge "OGL! Come use!" sticker to show that this sort of approach can get traction and that there's a demand for it.
And the setting agnostic approach makes it really easy for players and GMs to flavor by character, class, concept, and culture, which is a big bonus.
I think I want to have each of the Meridians that rovide an Enhancement bonus to be considered T-1 for every one of them past the first. That way, the first one you open will end up providing the highest bonus in the long run. I'm not sure how to best schematize that, however.
I like this tiered approach, where the player gets to pick what he wants to make his greatest focus early on so that whatever Meridian they've had the longest will also be their strongest.
Perhaps laying out a "First Meridian rises to tier X, Second Meridian rises to tier Y, etc" scheme could be formatted into a chart, but I can't think of a non-cluttered way to do it at the moment. This might make a custom character sheet specific to the Meridian scheme almost necessary though.
1: Mind
a: Offensive
b: Defensive: Mind Shielding
c: Utility: True Seeing
2: Body
a: Offensive: Enhancement bonuses to attacks
b: Defensive: AC bonuses, Endure Elements
c: Utility: Sustenance, Regeneration
3: Soul
a: Offensive
b: Defensive: Deflection to AC, Energy Resistance
c: Utility: Freedom of Movement
On Mind-Offensive, this won't make everyone happy but perhaps something along the lines of a psionic blast. Or telekinesis. Then again I may be looking at this from too much of a Vudra flavored angle.
For Soul-Offensive, perhaps the ability to align one's body to overcome DR?
I'd be really interested to see some of the math-heavy folks take a look at this.
I'm working on a monk-specific approach, but I'm definitely pulling from this for an all-classes solution if anyone wants to give it a go in a game I GM.
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I like your ideas, and it sounds like a fun project to bang around.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm multitasking not intentionally obfuscating.
I just don't see a way to make VoP viable for a pc, and that's why I banned it. If there was a wizard feat, the benefit of which was contingent upon a wizard never casting spells, it would be only slightly more ridiculous then VoP. It would also be keeping VoP and "Find the Path" company in ban-land. :P
Actually it is really easy, in my opinion, to balance that VoP as written: the monk who follows the VoP levels faster (given that everything is more challenging for him). Increase his level by 25% rounding down. This works fine as long as the campaign doesn't go beyond level 16 (for normal characters). It's not perfect, but the bonuses from higher levels are just about right to compensate for lack of items.