A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantips)...
.
So, should the table look like this:
1st 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — — — — —
4th 5 2 0 — — — — — — —
5th 5 3 1 — — — — — — —
6th 6 3 1 0 — — — — — —
Etc...
Any other way you'd interpret it? Seems harsh to get a spellslot and only be able to cast Level-minus-one spells in it...
Also, I assume the fewer spell known would apply to Prestige Class levels, despite it being a Sorcerer class feature?
What do they get for it? All the powers of both bloodlines?
A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantips)...
So, should the table look like this:
1st 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — — — — —
4th 5 2 0 — — — — — — —
5th 5 3 1 — — — — — — —
6th 6 3 1 0 - - - - - -(hope that formats okay).
Any other way you'd interpret it? Seems harsh to get a spellslot and only be able to cast Level-minus-one spells in it...
Also, I assume the fewer spell known would apply to Prestige Class levels, despite it being a Sorcerer class feature?
I haven't got the book yet.. but don't they get bloodline (or equivalent) spells? In that case, they can cast those in the spell slots.
What do they get for it? All the powers of both bloodlines?
Some of each.
don't they get bloodline (or equivalent) spells? In that case, they can cast those in the spell slots.
Sorcerers get Level 2 Bloodline spells at Level 5, Level 3 Bloodline spells at Level 7. So, that doesn't help.
What do they get for it? All the powers of both bloodlines?
They get both arcanas and both class skills, they get to cherry-pick their choice for everything else, and they get -2 to Will saves from conflicting urges screwing their minds up. Nothing that makes it worth it to lose so many spells known, particularly losing the only spell known of the newest level of spells.
But I don't think those specifics were needed to answer my rule question...
I'm wondering if I'm interpreting it wrong somehow. Does it mean 1 less spell of each spell level per Sorcerer level or just 1 less spell per level? Or something else?
You get both arcana's and the choice between both bloodlines list of feats, spells and abilities. One or the other in each case.
The concept is really powerful and there are few ways to balence being able to choose powers between two bloodlines. Losing one spell known each level and taking a -2 to will saves is how Paizo did it. So, good for them.
But I don't think those specifics were needed to answer my rule question...
I'm wondering if I'm interpreting it wrong somehow. Does it mean 1 less spell of each spell level per Sorcerer level or just 1 less spell per level? Or something else?
It seems pretty clearly to mean one less spell per spell level, and indeed that means you don't get any spells known at your newest level of spells at even levels. I think the best fix, which still makes the archetype weak but at least not crippled, is to add in "minimum 1".
Doesn`t seem such a bad trade-off if you are a Human Sorceror taking the Favored Class benefit of Extra Spell Known...
I guess they figured their wording was crystal clear, but I'm still a bit unsure. Wish they had a mini table like the one I posted earlier.
English could interpret it as, "Okay, one fewer spell known at each level... so character level 1 I'll know one less 0 spell as my one..." etc.
Doesn`t seem such a bad trade-off if you are a Human Sorceror taking the Favored Class benefit of Extra Spell Known...
Has to be at least one level lower than your highest...
Doesn`t seem such a bad trade-off if you are a Human Sorceror taking the Favored Class benefit of Extra Spell Known...
Heh, I was thinking that but didn't want to open that old can of worms here!
Tangent: Suffice to say, I think that the sum of my experience and those of others with whom I've spoken does not match up with that of the APG or UM on the 'value' of Sorcerer spells known (either for gaining more from the favored class bonus or for losing them in this archetype). Though the feat in APG to get more spells known was quite on target with my thinking.
But I don't think those specifics were needed to answer my rule question...
I'm wondering if I'm interpreting it wrong somehow. Does it mean 1 less spell of each spell level per Sorcerer level or just 1 less spell per level? Or something else?
The reference to cantrips should make it clear that you get one less spell known at each spell level, not each sorcerer level (especially as "one spell less at each sorcerer level" wouldn't make sense without a lot of additional clarifying text).
(Remember that you can always use higher-level slots for lower-level spells, so at level 4 you'd have 0 2nd-level spells known, but would still have 2nd-level slots that you could use for 1st-level spells, including metamagicked 1st-level spells.)
An astute reader will probably make that inference from the cantrip reference, but I think clearly stating `spell level` would be 110% preferable.
The reference to cantrips should make it clear that you get one less spell known at each spell level, not each sorcerer level (especially as "one spell less at each sorcerer level" wouldn't make sense without a lot of additional clarifying text).
(Remember that you can always use higher-level slots for lower-level spells, so at level 4 you'd have 0 2nd-level spells known, but would still have 2nd-level slots that you could use for 1st-level spells, including metamagicked 1st-level spells.)
So, since I'm dense, just subtract 1 from each number on the Table 3-15, yes? And thanks for answering!
just subtract 1 from each number on the Table 3-15, yes? And thanks for answering!
Yep!
I've noted the clarification in my master copy of the book.
This seems like an awful handicap. Not only does it take one level more to actually get a spell for each new spell level, but after that you have to wait two MORE levels until you get your second spell for said level. You have only a single spell known (not counting cantrips) for the first two levels, get your first 2nd level spell at 5 and your second 2nd level spell at 7, together with your first 3rd level spell and so on.
Haven't seen the UM bloodlines yet, but as of Core+APG, no bloodlines would nearly be worth getting better spells at such a delayed rate. I'd much rather have to option to give up one or even two(!) spells per day per level.
But I don't think those specifics were needed to answer my rule question...
I'm wondering if I'm interpreting it wrong somehow. Does it mean 1 less spell of each spell level per Sorcerer level or just 1 less spell per level? Or something else?
The reference to cantrips should make it clear that you get one less spell known at each spell level, not each sorcerer level (especially as "one spell less at each sorcerer level" wouldn't make sense without a lot of additional clarifying text).
(Remember that you can always use higher-level slots for lower-level spells, so at level 4 you'd have 0 2nd-level spells known, but would still have 2nd-level slots that you could use for 1st-level spells, including metamagicked 1st-level spells.)
Is it too early to start petitioning you guys to rename spell levels into spell tiers in PF2e? :)
Flavorful options are fine, but this sounds underpowered rather than "normalpowered" (I don't have the book, so I'm just going by what others have said in this thread). If an option is underpowered, then it most likely won't be used, and then it might as well not have been printed in the first place.
Sorcerers already get new spell levels 1 level later than other full casters; IMO there's virtually nothing this option could give that would be worth waiting another level. Lowering spells per day would be a better option, and it would be just as flavorful.
The spells known penalty does seem quite harsh on first sight, especially since sorcerers already lag behind on their spell levels.
Maybe a spells/day reduction would have been better, or maybe saying that they get their bloodline spell one level earlier (so you have at least something of the higher-level stuff. Plus, oracles get their bonus spells earlier, too!).
I guess, though, that going Earth Elemental/Copper Dragon (or black or green) does sound nice, as you get to change all your energy spells into acid AND then apply a +1 damage bonus per die to all of them. You could also do it with lightning, frost or fire, of course.
Still, I don't think that's worth being a full level behind the wizard.
I would like to thank the devs for introducing a flavorful option that is not overpowered. Splat books tend to just ramp up the power level and make other material obsolete. I think it's awesome that we can have new material that blends with the old without reducing its value.
There is "not making older material obsolete" and there is "making obsolete material".
While it's true that power creep is a bad thing, it's also true that almost useless options aren't any better, no matter how flavourful they are. What's the use of books full of options if they're not good options?
I think that if new options seem interesting and desirable, but are not automatically the new de-facto standard, they're done right.
In this case, I'd have to look long and hard to find a combination of bloodline abilities from two bloodlines that would justify taking such a savage beating with the magic (the thing sorcerers do most of the time).
And "looking long and hard to find a combination" smacks of min-maxing to me. If I have to min-max in order to gain the same power out of the archetype than the standard class has with any bloodline, something is not right. And it's not helping the flavour, either: So you either have normal sorcerers who can choose among an estimated ten thousand bloodlines that all look good, or you have the crossblooded which will either suck, or use one of maybe 4 different combinations that won't cripple you. To me, that sounds bland.
This seems like an awful handicap. Not only does it take one level more to actually get a spell for each new spell level, but after that you have to wait two MORE levels until you get your second spell for said level. You have only a single spell known (not counting cantrips) for the first two levels, get your first 2nd level spell at 5 and your second 2nd level spell at 7, together with your first 3rd level spell and so on.
Not exactly... You`re forgetting Bloodline Spells, and since you can select from both Bloodlines, you`re almost certain to get a useful spell there.
For 1st Level/Tier Spells (I can get down with that term!), you`re correct for the first 2 Char Levels,
but a second 2nd Level/Tier Spell is gained @ 5th Char Level via Bloodline
(strangely enough, SIMULTANEOUSLY w/ your FIRST `normal` 2nd Tier Spell Known due to the Archetype Penalty),
and that pattern continues for all subsequent Spell Levels...
(simultaneous learning of 1st normal Spell Known with Bloodline Spell for that Spell Tier)
I would agree if you say that is a really wierd dynamic, and it would be better off with a unique spell slot progression table, either explicitly with it`s own table or via a more particular formula achieving the same thing (e.g. instead of blanket -1, apply a -1 to spells known ABOVE 1... Which effectively doesn`t change the first level you learn a spell of a given spell level, but reproduces the `Sorceror Stagger` for EACH Spell Level, i.e. Spell Tiers above 1st would see a `1, 1, 1, 2` progression instead of `1, 2, 2, 3`. That removes the situation where you gain a Spell Level/Tier capability but 0 spells known, and removes the situations where BL spell is gained simultaneously with your first normal spell known of that Spell Level.
...That would be NEARLY as stiff a penalty as the current RAW, but be a bit more swallowable.
As is, this Class Option seems to un-necessarily handicap full Sorcerors who take it, when Spells/Day would have been a much more balanced balancing mechanic. AFAIK, it`s been clearly stated that Sorceror Arcana apply to ALL spellcasting and other activities of a character, so this Class Option seems mostly destined for those looking for a 1-level Sorceror dip to gain TWO Arcana (e.g. Draconic and Elemental) and then apply those benefits to some other class, e.g. Wizard or Oracle. I had been under the impression that Arcana only applied to Sorceror Casting, but was recently informed that Paizo has put out guidance saying otherwise (before this product was released).
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(Remember that you can always use higher-level slots for lower-level spells, so at level 4 you'd have 0 2nd-level spells known, but would still have 2nd-level slots that you could use for 1st-level spells, including metamagicked 1st-level spells.)
Is this stated somewhere in the Core book? I was told I couldn't do it, but I remember reading somewhere in the Core book and I can't find the page.
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Indeed. Another interesting combo to me is Serpentine/Fey or Serpentine/Undead. Using Metamagic to take advantage of the available thought as Sean suggested could make the former into a really nasty compeller, while the latter can use spells like Hold Person on undead, animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids - partway to being as useful as Hold Monster.
While I agree that the percentage of viable combinations is probably small, there are so many possible way to build that even applying the min-maxers lens to building crossblooded sorcerers ought to yield a good(ish) number of total viable combinations.
On a side note... Empyreal and Sage. Whoa.
(Remember that you can always use higher-level slots for lower-level spells, so at level 4 you'd have 0 2nd-level spells known, but would still have 2nd-level slots that you could use for 1st-level spells, including metamagicked 1st-level spells.)Is this stated somewhere in the Core book? I was told I couldn't do it, but I remember reading somewhere in the Core book and I can't find the page.
Core Rulebook page 218, Arcane Spells, Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Ditto for divine spells on page 220.
This seems like an awful handicap. Not only does it take one level more to actually get a spell for each new spell level, but after that you have to wait two MORE levels until you get your second spell for said level. You have only a single spell known (not counting cantrips) for the first two levels, get your first 2nd level spell at 5 and your second 2nd level spell at 7, together with your first 3rd level spell and so on.Not exactly... You`re forgetting Bloodline Spells, and since you can select from both Bloodlines, you`re almost certain to get a useful spell there.
Well, I didn't really forget the bloodline spells, but I didn't think about the levels you get them. Yes, you do get two 2nd Tier spells at level 5. Still, one of them comes from a very limited list of choices (namely 2). So, while most likely useful, it might still not exactly be something you'd take as one of your first picks for that Tier. And you have to wait two more levels before you can pick another one (not counting Expanded Arcana feats or the human favored class bonus).
simultaneous learning of 1st normal Spell Known with Bloodline Spell for that Spell Tier
I actually like that idea. Places a much greater focus on your Bloodlines supporting your spellcasting. If only it wasn't soooo late. Can't we at least get our Bloodline spell at the level we get the Tier? (i.e. Invisibility at level 4 for a Arcane/somethingelse crossblooded Sorc)
AFAIK, it`s been clearly stated that Sorceror Arcana apply to ALL spellcasting and other activities of a character, so this Class Option seems mostly destined for those looking for a 1-level Sorceror dip to gain TWO Arcana (e.g. Draconic and Elemental) and then apply those benefits to some other class, e.g. Wizard or Oracle. I had been under the impression that Arcana only applied to Sorceror Casting, but was recently informed that Paizo has put out guidance saying otherwise (before this product was released).
Yeah, it's in the core rules FAQ.
But if cheese is the most likely application for an archetype, it just makes me sad :(
Sean, I don't want to go off-topic but since you just happen to be here, is there a chance that we get a clarification on the Familiar HD matter (LINK)? With the Eldritch Heiritage feat shown in the blog, I think we'll see an increase in familiar numbers.
(And if this post is totally unappropriate, feel free to ignore/delete it)
AFAIK, it`s been clearly stated that Sorceror Arcana apply to ALL spellcasting and other activities of a character, so this Class Option seems mostly destined for those looking for a 1-level Sorceror dip to gain TWO Arcana (e.g. Draconic and Elemental) and then apply those benefits to some other class, e.g. Wizard or Oracle.Yeah, it's in the core rules FAQ.
But if cheese is the most likely application for an archetype, it just makes me sad :(
If it wasn`t clear from my post, I 110% feel you on that... 8-/
If it wasn`t clear from my post, I 110% feel you on that... 8-/AFAIK, it`s been clearly stated that Sorceror Arcana apply to ALL spellcasting and other activities of a character, so this Class Option seems mostly destined for those looking for a 1-level Sorceror dip to gain TWO Arcana (e.g. Draconic and Elemental) and then apply those benefits to some other class, e.g. Wizard or Oracle.Yeah, it's in the core rules FAQ.
But if cheese is the most likely application for an archetype, it just makes me sad :(
A possible solution more elegant than my "minimum 1" idea--what if you just didn't get any bloodline spells known:
"Due to their split focus, the Crossblooded sorcerer cannot learn to cast additional spells from her bloodline like a normal sorcerer can. As a result, she does not receive any bonus Bloodline spells known" or something.
That way, you get a spell known at the same level as a regular sorcerer, but you still lose out on a spell known for every level except cantrips.
Alternatively, keep it as is but move the bloodline spell to be learned one level sooner, so the only spell they can cast at first is one appropriate to one of their bloodlines.
Flavorful options are fine, but this sounds underpowered rather than "normalpowered" (I don't have the book, so I'm just going by what others have said in this thread). If an option is underpowered, then it most likely won't be used, and then it might as well not have been printed in the first place.
Sorcerers already get new spell levels 1 level later than other full casters; IMO there's virtually nothing this option could give that would be worth waiting another level. Lowering spells per day would be a better option, and it would be just as flavorful.
Take the expanded arcana feat. Really this sounds like a feat tax for getting the extra bloodline arcana.
Take the expanded arcana feat. Really this sounds like a feat tax for getting the extra bloodline arcana.Flavorful options are fine, but this sounds underpowered rather than "normalpowered" (I don't have the book, so I'm just going by what others have said in this thread). If an option is underpowered, then it most likely won't be used, and then it might as well not have been printed in the first place.
Sorcerers already get new spell levels 1 level later than other full casters; IMO there's virtually nothing this option could give that would be worth waiting another level. Lowering spells per day would be a better option, and it would be just as flavorful.
Expanded arcana gives you 1 new spell each time you take it, and you don't get feats at even levels, so you still wouldn't have a spell known of 2nd level until you reached Sorcerer level 5, for instance. But it's true that if you were willing to accept the delay and then took Expanded Arcana as your feat once at 1st and then again at every level from 5 to 19, you would make up for the cost of the archetype (except the -2 to Will saves, but that could be your level 3 feat, so for a non-human, you've spent every feat you get except the bloodline feats to cancel out the penalties of the archetype at odd levels).
Just my 2c here, but personally I think this option is AWESOME... I have many times been looking at different bloodlines, trying to decide between them, like "hmm... this one has an awesome 1st and 3rd lvl bloodline powers, but crap for the rest, but this other bloodline has crappy low ones and sweet high ones... hmmm... which part is more worth it to me?"
And yes, the lack of spells known does suck... but my Verdant/Fey sorcerer is going to be so fun to play >D
I am excited.
Just my 2c here, but personally I think this option is AWESOME... I have many times been looking at different bloodlines, trying to decide between them, like "hmm... this one has an awesome 1st and 3rd lvl bloodline powers, but crap for the rest, but this other bloodline has crappy low ones and sweet high ones... hmmm... which part is more worth it to me?"
And yes, the lack of spells known does suck... but my Verdant/Fey sorcerer is going to be so fun to play >D
I am excited.
I'm thinking a Half-Orc crossblooded sorceror with the Orc and Draconic bloodlines could be a nasty blaster. You can convert everything to fire (or other elemental type) and then get +2 dmg per die rolled and if you opt to use the alternate favoured class bonus, you get another +1/2 damage per level. So, your 6th level fireball does 15 more damage than the "standard".
The fey/serpentine crossblood is also pretty sweet since you get +2 DC on all those compulsion spells which can now also affect animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids without having to worry about type or language.
Uh, Yeah...
Your 6th level Fireball would do 15 more damage IF you had any way to know Fireball at 6th level ;-)
But sure, you can definitely get some nice combos with this.
...I mostly don´t like the fact that ít´s hideously over-beneficial to those who DIP 1 level in Sorceror to apply both Arcana to some other spellcasting class (like Wizard, ending up with same spell level access as a normal Sorceror but with 2 Arcana and full Wizard Class Abilities). If they ´fixed´ the Variant in similar ways to how people suggested above, that´d be nice for the full Sorcerors (and Sorceror+PrC´s), but does nothing with the 1-level Dip exploit. All I can say is, you´d better hope you don´t have to play with people using this stuff in PFS where you can´t say anything about it if it´s RAW. Actually, I wouldn´t be surprised if this ISN´T PFS-legal, but that just means it´s a shame for all those who would have just used it to more fully express their own unique concepts.
Uh, Yeah...
Your 6th level Fireball would do 15 more damage IF you had any way to know Fireball at 6th level ;-)
But sure, you can definitely get some nice combos with this....I mostly don´t like the fact that ít´s hideously over-beneficial to those who DIP 1 level in Sorceror to apply both Arcana to some other spellcasting class (like Wizard, ending up with same spell level access as a normal Sorceror but with 2 Arcana and full Wizard Class Abilities).
But I'm seriously looking at it for my Zen Archer/Sorcerer guy, when I can play him. :) I was thinking of making him an Efreeti or an Oread and taking elemental. If I can add another bloodline to that, and I'm not too worried about the slow caster progression, due to planning on him being 2/3rd archer 1/3rd sorcerer, then I can do get some nice benefits, skills, and boosts.
I think that crossblooded can be very powerful if you use it correctly. Simply use either metamagic or words of power so that you can use your lower level spells known to fill in for your higher level spell slots. I'm really thinking of trying this option out sometime.
For example, I could make a Blue Dragon + Stormborn word of power sorcerer. Use words of power to make every spell do electrical damage, plus you get +1 damage per die from the dragon bloodline and +1 to save DC from Stormborn. Plus, you can use words of power to still use your highest level spell slots even if you don't know a word for it yet. Sounds like a good deal to me.
With power-combinations like that, I think it is a good thing that Paizo reduced the number of spells known that crossblooded sorcerers get.
Flavorful options are fine, but this sounds underpowered rather than "normalpowered" (I don't have the book, so I'm just going by what others have said in this thread). If an option is underpowered, then it most likely won't be used, and then it might as well not have been printed in the first place.
In my group, I am the only person out of 5-9 people who really cares about having an effective character. One guy cares a little bit, but the rest are all concept characters who aren't optimal in the least.
This will be used even if it is underpowered.
I can already see this being used to grab the Serpentine bloodline (which has a great arcana, but lackluster abilities IMO), and another bloodline, maybe Fey to create a super enchanter.