RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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AKA "Why aren't most lesser restoration potions "paladin" potions?"
This idea/question/argument is inspired by some discussion from the PFS board, but is a broader issue that relates to home games.
The argument is constructed thusly:
1. The default assumption is that potions are available for sale in at least major cities. Somebody is making these things. (If your world has no magic-mart even for CLW potions, this still applies to PCs with Brew potion, and to potions found as treasure).
2. Potions are not spell trigger or spell completion items. Therefore, the creator need not know the spell to make them, it just adds 5 to the creation DC.
3. Because most potions are low caster level, the creation DC is very low anyway, so +5 is a small penalty.
4. Lower level spells are cheaper to make into potions.
5. Therefore, it is to the crafter's advantage to use the lowest level version of any spell they intend to make a potion out of.
6. Conclusion: any potion crafter should be making "paladin" potions of lesser restoration, "ranger" potions of resist energy, "summoner" potions of haste, etc. The availability of these potions does not depend on some paladin taking Brew Potion when Moe the 3rd level alchemist can make all of them.
7. Arguably, the default for "found" potions in treasure should follow this assumption.
Unless people can find some holes in my logic here, I'm thinking about implementing this as the default in my home games. I think the notion of default "common" CL for potions reverts back to 3.5 where the spell was absolutely required, so most potions would be from full caster lists.
Obviously this does not apply to scrolls/wands.
Brew Potion (Item Creation)
You can create magic potions.Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
You can only brew potions of spells you know .. so you can not switch vom "summoner haste" to "paladin restoration".
The price depends on your class (see item creation rules).
Also from an RP stand point, you are much more likely to find a Cleric who can cast Lessor Restoration, 2nd level spells (3rd) than a Pal who can Cast 1st level spells (4th or 5th). Considering the distribution of class levels in the world, the average Hamlet would likely only have one or two residents above 2nd level, and it's more likely to be a fighter or ranger than a cleric. When you also account for the fact that significantly less Paladins are going to take item creation feats in general than a Cleric.
Also you need a CL of 3 to take Brew Potion, so you need a Pal lvl 6 verse a Cleric lvl 3
You can only brew potions of spells you know .. so you can not switch vom "summoner haste" to "paladin restoration".
This has been debated back and forth many times with no clear answer, but some people believe that needing to know the spell is a requirement that can be skipped (by increasing the DC by +5). Note that there's a paragraph in the rules that specifically says you can't skip that requirement for wands (spell trigger items) or scrolls (spell completion items), but potions are not mentioned in that particular paragraph.
So depending on where I landed in that particular debate, I would either side with the original poster (all potions should be the cheapest possible price) or you (paladin/ranger potions are as rare as hen's teeth). Personally, I like the thought that alchemists (in particular) can brew any potion in existence, but I don't particularly like the idea of potions of dimension door or greater invisibility.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Brew Potion (Item Creation)
You can create magic potions.Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
You can only brew potions of spells you know .. so you can not switch vom "summoner haste" to "paladin restoration".
The price depends on your class (see item creation rules).
The item creation rules specifically say you can ignore spell prerequisites:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I suppose one of the problems is that the item creation rules are full of small contradictions - do you need to know the spell per the feat, or do you not, per the item crafting rules? Does a 1st level potion takes 2 hours (per the feat) or 1 day (per the potion crafting rules)?
I guess I come down on the side that knowing the spell is optional due to potions not being specifically called out in the item creation rules like spell completion and spell trigger items.
jb200, the whole point is that a any caster can make any potion.
I would say that creator that has specific spell on his spell list has to use that version and cannot choose to use other class version (unless also happens to be member of that class).
Also, I would house-rule that if you want to substitute +5 to creation DC for unknown spell the following order of precedence is obligatory when picking version used: your class list, sorcerer/wizard, cleric, druid, bard, inquisitor, summoner, paladin, ranger. (this order of precedence is RAW from determining spell-like abilities spell level with added APG classes and priority given for own class list over any other). Thus only actual paladins could brew potions of lesser restoration, 1st level and only summoners could brew potions of haste, 2nd level for their variants of those spells are exceptions an not the norm.
Also, I would house-rule that if you want to substitute +5 to creation DC for unknown spell the following order of precedence is obligatory when picking version used: your class list, sorcerer/wizard, cleric, druid, bard, inquisitor, summoner, paladin, ranger. (this order of precedence is RAW from determining spell-like abilities spell level with added APG classes and priority given for own class list over any other). Thus only actual paladins could brew potions of lesser restoration, 1st level and only summoners could brew potions of haste, 2nd level for their variants of those spells are exceptions an not the norm.
That's an interesting idea, although you would still end up with weird corner cases. E.g., a wizard could create a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds for 150 gp but a druid would have to pay 375 gp -- the druid would be better off if he didn't have CMW on his spell list.
Maybe using the order you posted OR your own class's spell level (whichever is lower) would make more sense?
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Point 4 and 5:
Level 2 lesser restoration potions have a higher net profit. Merchants would want to make more money (25g profit vs 150g profit).
In my home games, it has always followed the PFS logic of cleric/wizard/druid. All the spells crossing over spell lists has created a mess, especially now with some arcane/divine crossover. This is something every DM needs to look at closely for any campaigns. They need to define how the Creating Magic Items rules work in their setting. They are after all guidelines
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Point 4 and 5:
Level 2 lesser restoration potions have a higher net profit. Merchants would want to make more money (25g profit vs 150g profit).
I had thought of that. By that logic, all CMW potions should be 3rd level druid potions then, because the profit on lv3 spells is greater. It seems like the market for level 1 spells would be larger though. (I am not an economist)
In fact, it seems like it would be best for merchants to jack up the CL on all potions to increase the profit margin(why make 25 gp profit on a caster level 1 potion of CLW when you can make 125 gp on a caster level 5?)
I think competetion is the answer to both questions. A monopoly can charge whatever they want :)
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The whole pricing thing is just a mechanics baseline. Just like in real life, there will be merchants marking things up, taking advantage of a crisis and such. Those cure disease potions would be mighty expensive once there is a disease outbreak. Healing potions might be at a premium during a siege or creatures regularly attacking. Make those PCs have to haggle!
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Unless people can find some holes in my logic here, I'm thinking about implementing this as the default in my home games. I think the notion of default "common" CL for potions reverts back to 3.5 where the spell was absolutely required, so most potions would be from full caster lists.
There have been multiple posts raising the point that your premise about not needing to have the spell prepared to make a potion. If you're using this idea, then your argument seems fine. If it is the case, then chalk it up to another unintended effect of the poorly designed changes to the magic system.
In concept, I'm fine with the idea that lower spell level and lower caster level versions of spells can generate items at lower cost/price. I don't use the PF magic creation system and the possibility still comes up. I've used the idea as a plot device in my games. I played an archivist in 3.5, which thrives on the idea. In game worlds where some thought is given to how the economics play out, these items are an occasional bargain or plot device. If using the Moe-the-Alchemist model and a free market, things get different quickly.
The game doesn't have a great economics model. It's fine for dealing with the normal things needed by the typical adventuring trope. Push on it too far and you either get implausibility or you get a great opportunity for mechanics driven world design.
There is an foundational idea in accounting that the methods used by accounting shouldn't influence the business decisions, but should report the results. Likewise, a role playing rule system should represent the gameworld, not dictate what the gameworld is like. That's my take on it, and others would disagree (and whether the business world really works that way isn't material for the analogy). I also fully value the creativity that stems out of thinking through the ramifications of "what would happen were this different..." It's the foundation of speculative literature in general, and RPGs are epitome of living, breathing speculative literature. Enjoy.
the rules do say that you don't have to know the spell to make the item but you still have to have access to it: a scroll, wand, staff, wondrous item, or some other spell caster. My original point still stands, what's more likely, a Cleric writing a scroll of lesser restoration or a Paladin. What's the likelihood of the Pal even HAVING scribe scroll? You still have to find a Pal who is level 4 to cast the spell for you as opposed to a lvl 3 Cleric.
Full casters are just that, a class who focuses a significant amount of time and energy to excel at spell casting. A Ranger, as a lvl 4 caster, is rarely if ever going to take Item Creation Feats so his spells are less likely to be on the shelf at Yea Ol' Magic-R-US.
The other example the OP uses is a summoner Haste vs. Wiz haste. And while a summoner haste scroll would be cheaper (Min lvl 4 vs 5) you also have to remember that a there are other things affected by the caster level than just the cost of the scroll. The Wiz Haste scroll lasts one round longer and can affect one more party member and requires a higher roll to dispel it.
My viewpoint, and the one I have seen others post as well, is that specific rules trump general rules. So the specific rule in the feat description overrides the general rule from the item creation section.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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My viewpoint, and the one I have seen others post as well, is that specific rules trump general rules. So the specific rule in the feat description overrides the general rule from the item creation section.
There are a couple of problems with applying that in a blanket fashion here:
1. The rules for Brew Potion contradict the rules for creating potions in a couple of ways, especially creation times. Not just the general magic item creation rules, but the potion rules. Which is more specific?
2. The feat says any spell you know, so if the feat trumps the creation section, personal spells like shield and true strike should be okay, because the restriction on personal spells is from the more "general" section.
3. Oils of things like magic weapon are not okay, because they don't target creatures.
You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.
I think the problem is that the potion system we are all used to from 3.5 is not the potion system we have now in PF. I can't see any way to get "casters can create potions of any non-personal spell from their lists" without some sort of horrible cherry picking kludge of the RAW.
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I think the problem is that the potion system we are all used to from 3.5 is not the potion system we have now in PF. I can't see any way to get "casters can create potions of any non-personal spell from their lists" without some sort of horrible cherry picking kludge of the RAW.
The potion situation is part of a magic item creation system that has is a mess. The PF changes were tacked onto the existing system, which already had some warts. The end result is something that few agree on once they dig into it. It's a mess, and attempting to logically understand it fails due to the internal inconsistencies.
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I had thought of that. By that logic, all CMW potions should be 3rd level druid potions then, because the profit on lv3 spells is greater. It seems like the market for level 1 spells would be larger though. (I am not an economist)
In fact, it seems like it would be best for merchants to jack up the CL on all potions to increase the profit margin(why make 25 gp profit on a caster level 1 potion of CLW when you can make 125 gp on a caster level 5?)
They wouldn't make any profit at all, if no-one would buy them.
Why buy a level 5 CLW for 250gp, curing 1d8+5, when for the same price they could go to the brewer down the road and buy five level 1 CLW (5d8+5)?
Why buy a level 5 CLW for 250gp, curing 1d8+5, when for the same price they could go to the brewer down the road and buy five level 1 CLW (5d8+5)?
Because there's an anti-competitive cartel that conspires to jack up the price?
Oh wait, I'm thinking of another precious liquid. Never mind.