From beating off to beating your kids in less than 100 posts!
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And please, enough of the "I was spanked as a kid and it didn't hurt me one bit as an adult! *twitch* *twitch*" "macho" nonsense. You're still spanking your kids... so as I said above, you're just continuing the pattern.
Except that everything we do is continuing a patern. I get up and go to work every day, I pay bills, I vote. Nothing we do is truly original. The patfrns you want to repeat are the ones that are effective, I've seen a lot more effective results from parents who spanked compared to the parents who didn't. I'm gonna go with the system that produced me, a well adjusted adult with no criminal history a loving close relationship with my parents, rather than someone who tells me that I'm really a messed up macho liar.
I should note that I do not in any way consider using FORCE on children to be in itself a bad thing. Holding them fast, lifting and so on, that's not necessarily a problem. It all goes sour when you use force to incite pain, though. Or, otherwise put, violence.
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There is a difference between a spanking and beating. Spankings are generally only useful for getting the attention of small children that are nevertheless old enough to understand what behavior the spanking is intended to correct, and should never be done in anger. I also believe that slapping a child's hand as they're reaching for a hot pot or stovetop is perfectly appropriate.
You may not believe in spankings, but to equate a spanking, which is generally a swat on the bottom, to a beating is, to me, rather combative and overly judgemental.
It is the duty of a parent to establish boundaries of good behavior for their children, and expectations that their children meet certain standards of behavior. Children will have to do things they don't want to do their entire lives. Part of raising children into good adults is teaching them how to act with grace and maturity even when they're not doing something they absolutely want to do.
Let me chime in on this. I spank my kids, when their behavior warrants it, I do not beat them. There is a HUGE difference. Trust me, I wish my parents had just spanked. Instead I had jars smashed across my head, broomsticks broken across my back, I was hit with a cast iron skillet, I've been stomped into the f&~~ing floor, had my hands smashed in the refrigirator door. Once even had my boots used to beat me across the face. I lived in terror of what would happen to me when I got home, nothing was ever good enough. Rooms not clean? Beating time. Got a C in math? Let's smash your face into the wall until your nose bleeds. Whoops, didn't go to sleep when you went to bed? Beat you with a belt until you piss yourself. Do Not Ever try and say that spanking is beating.
Let me chime in on this. I spank my kids, when their behavior warrants it, I do not beat them. There is a HUGE difference. Trust me, I wish my parents had just spanked. Instead I had jars smashed across my head, broomsticks broken across my back, I was hit with a cast iron skillet, I've been stomped into the f@~@ing floor, had my hands smashed in the refrigirator door. Once even had my boots used to beat me across the face. I lived in terror of what would happen to me when I got home, nothing was ever good enough. Rooms not clean? Beating time. Got a C in math? Let's smash your face into the wall until your nose bleeds. Whoops, didn't go to sleep when you went to bed? Beat you with a belt until you piss yourself. Do Not Ever try and say that spanking is beating.
Sadly, I had a very similar experience for much of my childhood. I would never, ever inflict it on any child. Not one of my children has ever gotten more than a few open hand smacks on the ass. To compare that to a beating...well, just don't do it.
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Let me chime in on this. I spank my kids, when their behavior warrants it, I do not beat them. There is a HUGE difference. Trust me, I wish my parents had just spanked. Instead I had jars smashed across my head, broomsticks broken across my back, I was hit with a cast iron skillet, I've been stomped into the f@~@ing floor, had my hands smashed in the refrigirator door. Once even had my boots used to beat me across the face. I lived in terror of what would happen to me when I got home, nothing was ever good enough. Rooms not clean? Beating time. Got a C in math? Let's smash your face into the wall until your nose bleeds. Whoops, didn't go to sleep when you went to bed? Beat you with a belt until you piss yourself. Do Not Ever try and say that spanking is beating.Sadly, I had a very similar experience for much of my childhood. I would never, ever inflict it on any child. Not one of my children has ever gotten more than a few open hand smacks on the ass. To compare that to a beating...well, just don't do it.
That's about where I draw the line too. Although when our 6 year old stole my collections from the previous days work she did get a single swat with the belt across her behind.
Let me chime in on this. I spank my kids, when their behavior warrants it, I do not beat them. There is a HUGE difference. Trust me, I wish my parents had just spanked. Instead I had jars smashed across my head, broomsticks broken across my back, I was hit with a cast iron skillet, I've been stomped into the f***ing floor, had my hands smashed in the refrigirator door. Once even had my boots used to beat me across the face. I lived in terror of what would happen to me when I got home, nothing was ever good enough. Rooms not clean? Beating time. Got a C in math? Let's smash your face into the wall until your nose bleeds. Whoops, didn't go to sleep when you went to bed? Beat you with a belt until you piss yourself. Do Not Ever try and say that spanking is beating.There is a difference between a spanking and beating. Spankings are generally only useful for getting the attention of small children that are nevertheless old enough to understand what behavior the spanking is intended to correct, and should never be done in anger. I also believe that slapping a child's hand as they're reaching for a hot pot or stovetop is perfectly appropriate.
You may not believe in spankings, but to equate a spanking, which is generally a swat on the bottom, to a beating is, to me, rather combative and overly judgemental.
It is the duty of a parent to establish boundaries of good behavior for their children, and expectations that their children meet certain standards of behavior. Children will have to do things they don't want to do their entire lives. Part of raising children into good adults is teaching them how to act with grace and maturity even when they're not doing something they absolutely want to do.
What you are saying is deeply tragic. No child should EVER, EVER be subjected to living that way. My point is that if people would accept having a "hard limit" of NEVER using violence against their own children, it would not have happened, not to you, not to so many other children.
We are creatures who have a hard time dealing with degrees. If something is utterly off limits, we don't do it. But the moment somebody says that SOME of that something is okay, we go all out. I am sure there are people who use spanking and never proceed from there, but how many who aimed for that failed, and realized that they were behaving monstrously, beating their kids for every little failure? It starts as a simple solution in a stressful situation, and develops into something utterly repugnant.
Spanking is causing pain. Beating is causing pain. Causing pain is violence. Pain and fear is not what you want teaching your kids to behave. There are a host of other things that are far better tutors, that do not involve proving your superiority against your children though hurting them. Things like appreciation, reasoning, curiosity, duty, and so on.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy37wGK-6mY
(I've got to learn how to link stuff.)
Kids. You've gotta be firm.
I was never beaten by my parents (by other kids, constantly, but that's beside the point). I can remember one spanking, vividly. I'd done something exceptionally bratty (can't remember what, exactly, but I'd been told why it was wrong and sternly lectured to on the subject many, many times before, and been given the time-outs and usual stuff, and had basically ignored them all and figured it was worth it). That wasn't so bad -- but then I made the mistake of blatantly lying to the old man and claiming I hadn't done it (he physically saw me do it, mind you).
The spanking finally proved to me that this was an issue that wouldn't be allowed to slide. Occasional misbehavior was normal and forgiveable. A pattern of repeat offenses, and then upping the ante with attempted deception, would be met with something I couldn't just ignore. I'm grateful for it to this day.
I should note that I do not in any way consider using FORCE on children to be in itself a bad thing. Holding them fast, lifting and so on, that's not necessarily a problem. It all goes sour when you use force to incite pain, though. Or, otherwise put, violence.
It's more shock than pain I reckon.
No real parent wants to inflict true pain on their child, or hit them so hard it leaves marks, etc. That drifts into the arena of abuse.A quick pop to the butt with an open hand is like a quick course correction. Nothing more.
(I've got to learn how to link stuff.)
Kids. You've gotta be firm.
Done.
I was never beaten by my parents (by other kids, constantly, but that's beside the point). I can remember one spanking, vividly. I'd done something exceptionally bratty (can't remember what, exactly, but I'd been told why it was wrong and sternly lectured to on the subject many, many times before, and been given the time-outs and usual stuff, and had basically ignored them all and figured it was worth it). That wasn't so bad -- but then I made the mistake of blatantly lying to the old man and claiming I hadn't done it (he physically saw me do it, mind you).
The spanking finally proved to me that this was an issue that wouldn't be allowed to slide. Occasional misbehavior was normal and forgiveable. A pattern of repeat offenses, and then upping the ante with attempted deception, would be met with something I couldn't just ignore. I'm grateful for it to this day.
+1, Sir.
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I should note that I do not in any way consider using FORCE on children to be in itself a bad thing. Holding them fast, lifting and so on, that's not necessarily a problem. It all goes sour when you use force to incite pain, though. Or, otherwise put, violence.It's more shock than pain I reckon.
No real parent wants to inflict true pain on their child, or hit them so hard it leaves marks, etc. That drifts into the arena of abuse.A quick pop to the butt with an open hand is like a quick course correction. Nothing more.
Bingo. Spankings tend to be more "shock and awe" than anything else.
I was never beaten by my parents (by other kids, constantly, but that's beside the point). I can remember one spanking, vividly. I'd done something exceptionally bratty (can't remember what, exactly, but I'd been told why it was wrong and sternly lectured to on the subject many, many times before, and been given the time-outs and usual stuff, and had basically ignored them all and figured it was worth it). That wasn't so bad -- but then I made the mistake of blatantly lying to the old man and claiming I hadn't done it (he physically saw me do it, mind you).
The spanking finally proved to me that this was an issue that wouldn't be allowed to slide. Occasional misbehavior was normal and forgiveable. A pattern of repeat offenses, and then upping the ante with attempted deception, would be met with something I couldn't just ignore. I'm grateful for it to this day.
A grandmother was watching her grandson and went to a store. The grandson started acting up and the grandmother repeated told him to stop and to behave. The child disobeyed her, eventually she told the child that he would get a swat if he didn't stop. The child continued acting up and the old woman gave him a quick swat on his rear. This got his attention and he stopped misbehaving.
Another woman near by asked the old woman, "Why are you beating that child?" The old woman looked her in the eyes and said, "So that the cops won't do it much worse later in his life."
There are a host of other things that are far better tutors, that do not involve proving your superiority against your children though hurting them. Things like appreciation, reasoning, curiosity, duty, and so on.
My father instilled all of these things in me. AND he spanked.
These things aren't mutually exclusive, really.
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Breeding licences please.
Parental examinations.
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Because, operating a vehicle is huge responsibility.
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It's ok!
The species is safe for now!
We've ensured our survival for a while at least!
I think it's safe to say we're ok on the baby front!
O_O ARGH!
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Want to help the environment?
Stop filling it up with people!
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I am pretty much utterly convinced beating children is bad. It may be that I one day get an argument that will convince me that it's good to beat children, but so far, I haven't found it. Being convinced of something is not being fanatic.Fair enough. I'm approaching this issue from an empirical standpoint, rather than a theoretical one, which may be the source of our difficulty. I've seen many, many examples all over the spectrum, and have been able to make pretty reliable correlations with the results. Not 100% -- nothing human ever is -- but better than betting odds.
From a theoretical standpoint, beating children is an unatonable evil, to me -- we're on exactly the same page there, believe it ot not. But I think that maybe physically placing a baby into a bathtub isn't wrong, when you tell it to crawl in there and it doesn't understand your instructions, and can't physically comply with them. From your last post, you seem to agree.
A light spanking to get a 2-year-old's attention is somewhere in between the two, in my own theoretical construct of things -- but clearly not in yours. I'd put it closer to the bathtub example, because the 2-year-old lacks the moral reasoning to comply out of elightened reasons. You clearly put it as part of the beating example. So be it. When theories don't agree, I look to real-world examples.
Thank you for this post. It is good to know that someone understands what I am trying to say, at least in part.
I should tell you people that I do have a child. He is a beautiful, wonderful child of three, generally happy, eager to help, but naturally, sometimes unfocused, tired, screaming and over-tired. He has done his fair share of drawing on my things, screaming at restaurants, and so on. It happens when I have misjudged how ready he is for whatever I had thought to do, or when my focus lapses. I have never hit him, even the very thought of willfully causing him pain (excepting cleaning cuts and bruises and the like) makes me nauseous. If I saw an adult willfully causing him pain, they had better hope I was well restrained, and remained so for a very long time in the future, or I would murderize them. Now, does he run the family? No. When I tell him to do things, he listens if he's able. If he's not, it's usually because he needs sleep. In the few remaining situations, distraction works wonders.
So, no, you don't need to teach your child about pain. The world is painful enough.
Yes, I am angry.
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There are a host of other things that are far better tutors, that do not involve proving your superiority against your children though hurting them. Things like appreciation, reasoning, curiosity, duty, and so on.My father instilled all of these things in me. AND he spanked.
These things aren't mutually exclusive, really.
In my experience they go hand in hand. One of the first things a kid needs to learn is actions have consequences, both good and bad.
Maybe if more kids learned that when they were younger then they wouldn't grow up to be such little a+*$%$#s.
I'm not sure how we got so far off the original topic, but I will say that the attacks on other posters' views is uncalled for.
Please return to the thread topic and refrain from the uncivil commentary.
Edit: Removed posts (and their replies).
I'll try and return this to the original topic by seguing it over from this derail.
Several people have asked, concerning the spanking issue, if the other posters have children. I take this as a typical reaction of "if you don't, then you don't now what it's like."
While I think it's a faulty position to hold, there are a lot of things you can know from theory and from observation, I wonder if this position also applies to other areas?
If it does, then one could reasonably ask: "Are you a woman who have had to make the decision about having an abortion or carry through with the pregnancy and the put then child up for adoption?"
If not, then you apparently have no say in the whole abortion discussion, if we go by the spanking reaction.
I'm not sure how we got so far off the original topic, but I will say that the attacks on other posters' views is uncalled for.
Please return to the thread topic and refrain from the uncivil commentary.
Edit: Removed posts (and their replies).
Well, Paizo has now come down decisively on the "time-out" side of the discipline argument.
That doesn't mean they've ruled out spanking, however, so you better behave yourself, young man!
I'll try and return this to the original topic by seguing it over from this derail.
Several people have asked, concerning the spanking issue, if the other posters have children. I take this as a typical reaction of "if you don't, then you don't now what it's like."
While I think it's a faulty position to hold, there are a lot of things you can know from theory and from observation, I wonder if this position also applies to other areas?
If it does, then one could reasonably ask: "Are you a woman who have had to make the decision about having an abortion or carry through with the pregnancy and the put the child up for adoption?"
If not, then you apparently have no say in the whole abortion discussion, if we go by the spanking reaction.
+ another million!
It's not so far off topic...
We've just gotten to the "It's ok to kill it, but don't spank it" part of the discussion.
It's not so far off topic...
We've just gotten to the "It's ok to kill it, but don't spank it" part of the discussion.
No, no, no, don't spank your children. You can spank "it" as much as you like. See about two pages ago.
Go into your father's bureau and bring me his belt!You forgot one: Go get the switch!
The first time he went out with me to the rose bush and showed me exactly what he was looking for. He even showed me how to safely remove the thorns. After that, it was my responsibility to get the switch. You know what? After a couple times, just the psychological effect was enough to get me to behave.
My mother preferred a wooden spoon.
No, no, no, don't spank your children. You can spank "it" as much as you like. See about two pages ago.It's not so far off topic...
We've just gotten to the "It's ok to kill it, but don't spank it" part of the discussion.
Oh my bad...
;)
I really would want to respond to that. But that response would be very ugly, concerning mainly the reasons of certain groups for having children at all, so I won't. In the meantime, Kryzbyn, don't paint your views as someone else's.