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At what level do these low magic games usually cap out at? The more details and less anecdote you provide may serve to convince people. My GM likes to go lower magic items so I always am on the look out for hard data on successful games that go beyond 6th level.And I've had the exact opposite experience. Much of the time, it's great to play a non-caster in a low-magic world.
I guess we've just played and GMed in styles that make different ways work.
This may be part of the issue, sure. I've typically not played at above 6th level for about a decade. Consider that I'm used to seeing the level rate in games go to about 1-2 levels per year, this is why. But I also don't always play low-magic, and the high magic games also cap out at around this level.
Although, I think another part of the issue is in how downtime gets used. In the campaigns I'm in, if the caster is lucky enough to have the time to craft an item or research a spell, the non-casters have the time to carouse, start their own adventure, build contacts, etc. The caster ends up with a lot of magical power, but the non-casters end up with a lot of temporal power--castles, guilds, merchant vessels, etc. The casters end up playing Merlin to the non-caster's Arthur. Everyone is happy and fulfilled.
If PC success is measured as combat effectiveness in a vacuum, without the help of other party members, then sure, I can see how a high-level caster dominates a high-level non-caster. However, once measures of societal power and party teamwork are included, it's suddenly far from cut-and-dried. I'm guessing that some of the poeple here who are saying the low magic games makes the casters all-powerful and many battles impossible to win play at higher levels far more often than at lower levels? But even then, are the PCs still, essentially, adventurers, with no permanent home? I've honestly never played in a high-level campaign where that was the case, and it is this worldly power that makes the non-caster so strong.
But this is independent of how much magic the PCs manage to find (or, going back to the OP, choose). We've seen all the studies that talk about how the versatility of full casters can overwhelm most challenges at high levels. Yes, we know, we get that. However, you don't get to be high level without having a full story behind you. That story is far more important than the DPR. So, when I'm facing a Horned Devil, I have to understand why. It's not just some random encounter.
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if I could find someone running a 1-2 ed game or a group interested in playing one(and ohh how I want to find said thing locally) I would take what I found as those are the assumptions the mechanics enforce.
I have a 1e PbP running right now on ENWorld. But it's 1st level, you might not hit the magic item creation stage for years.
One of my favorite experiences with buying items from a wizard in his tower was actually in the original Baldur's Gate. That tower was completely awesome. I imagine outside of a computer game it could be made far more awesome.
And I always ended up killing the wizard there (and running like hell from his golem). In a real game that would be *highly* unlikely. A real wizard would never physically appear before the PCs by his own choosing.
if I could find someone running a 1-2 ed game or a group interested in playing one(and ohh how I want to find said thing locally) I would take what I found as those are the assumptions the mechanics enforce.I have a 1e PbP running right now on ENWorld. But it's 1st level, you might not hit the magic item creation stage for years.
Thank you but I am not a big fan of PbP.
That in and of itself is perfectly okay. The mage in that example, if I recall, however was not a "Make items to order" kind of dude either, at least not without a large amount of persuasion.
Sure, but I still consider that a "magic mart". Maybe it's a "magic mart" with a limited selection, but nonetheless...
Again in "Old School" it cost a perminent CON to make a magic item. You really cannot use 1-2ed or earlier to justify what occurs in this version of the rules. Much like your thing with Cuthbert in another thread you need to look at this edition of the game and the rules/fluff set therin.
The costs associated with magic item creation have steadily gone down
aside from gold costs you had:
1-2ed constitution
3ed XP
PF none
4ed none and/ or break one magic item down to make another
You are reading 2nd wrong.
Magic item creation:First only permanent magic items cost con: so scrolls/potions were free XP (other than time) as all magic item creation gave XP (another reason Mounty Haul was disliked as it meant over leveling).
Even in case of a permanent magic item there was a chance you lost con it wasn't automatic.
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You are reading 2nd wrong.
Magic item creation:
First only permanent magic items cost con: so scrolls/potions were free XP (other than time) as all magic item creation gave XP (another reason Mounty Haul was disliked as it meant over leveling).Even in case of a permanent magic item there was a chance you lost con it wasn't automatic.
I played in a Monty Haul game once, didn't like it much, it felt too much like I was the instrument, not the items I was using. Which is odd, because as a tank driver I felt like I was the one with the power, not my vehicle.
I have two kids, one in college, one in high school.
I probably should have age boxed my kids comment. They're pretty autonomous by that age.
If you told me your kids were 6 and 8 and you still had 20 hours a week to put into handcrafting a home game on top of a job, yeah, I'd say you had to be cutting corner somewhere else.
This is simply not true. If the party contains a wizard, the fighter can usually start taking the Fly skill at level 5. Unless your wizard has no reliable means of flying, of course, but then he can't take that skill either if that's the case.
The wizard's casting fly on the fighter every day? That's what he's going to burn his 3rd level slot on?
In that case, sure, some GMs would let you take the fly skill. I probably wouldn't, since I'm not assuming the wizard is going to be the fighter's b~*$& like that forever.
I have two kids, one in college, one in high school.I probably should have age boxed my kids comment. They're pretty autonomous by that age.
If you told me your kids were 6 and 8 and you still had 20 hours a week to put into handcrafting a home game on top of a job, yeah, I'd say you had to be cutting corner somewhere else.
Who said I spend 20 hours a week handcrafting a home game? I don't spend nearly that much time on game preparation and I am currently running one campaign and playing in three others. We're all older geeks and most of the games are pretty infrequent, maybe one session every three weeks on average.
I spend probably about five hours a week on game prep, and probably four hours of that is on my campaign and the other hour is on my characters in other campaigns. Some weeks I might spend ten hours, others I spend zero hours.
Lately most of my time in game related activities has been in sculpting and painting miniatures and in making terrain. I suppose the terrain is technically game prep, but I haven't spent that much time on it. And the sculpting is really a completely different hobby from playing, and I sculpt other things than miniatures. But I did spend most of the last two nights sculpting and painting a miniature for my witch in our most infrequent game group which is converting to Pathfinder so I had to make a new character for that group.
I like to think I am fairly good at time management. Especially since a large part of my actual day job is process and execution efficiency. I am a serious multi-tasker. When I work from home I can run a meeting at work, take notes and facilitate discussion at the same time that I am painting or sculpting a miniature. I can take half an hour of my lunch break and lay out a town on graph paper and then put that into a mapping program when I get home. I fold origami which I sometimes dip in varnish to harden and then mount on bases to make miniatures. I plan out campaign encounters on my drive in to work...
And seriously, when you don't watch TV, you gain a huge amount of productive time.
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The wizard's casting fly on the fighter every day? That's what he's going to burn his 3rd level slot on?
In that case, sure, some GMs would let you take the fly skill. I probably wouldn't, since I'm not assuming the wizard is going to be the fighter's b!&*@ like that forever.
And you think he's going to hoard all those spells for himself? Every day? For basically no reason?
See, this is why your wizard always gets stuck doing latrine duty and food prep while all the other wizards get to go play.
I dislike magic stores. I find it implausible that in every major city there is a Magic-Mart the characters can drop in on and buy/sell whatever they want. So in the game I am running I plan to have mundane stores that carry a few magical items. I will roll randomly a few magic items for the stores within the gold piece limit of the town. One to four items. Those are the items/weapons available for sale. And I plan to only have so much money available to buy magic items off the players.
I get that this is going to restrict the players. Especially the players in my group who are used to buying anything they want out of any book they can get their hands on. So I gave them each a magic item at the beginning of the campaign that will level up with them giving each player a bonus tailored to their character.
I think the scarcity of magic items will add to the mystique of the world. A +1 dagger isn’t that great in a normal game but when there isn’t that much out there a +1 dagger become much more valuable. And most characters will toss a cursed or “draw back” item. But when nothing else is likely to come along for a while it’s harder to just leave it behind. And dungeon crawls become more important if the only way to get a +5 Holy Flaming Long Sword is to go and take it from the Bodak’s hoard.
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
Well there's a couple of things that spring to mind.
1) It's not very realistic. I mean, in a world where magic is prevalent, why wouldn't be trade it?2) Magic items are expected in the game. In many ways, they are the great equalizer. If a warrior cannot commission items to protect him and give him special options (such as short-range teleportation, flight, spell protections, etc) then you are shortchanging the warrior harshly.
3) Such games tend to favor magical casters. They need the least amount of gear to remain relevant as the game progresses. Caster vs Mundane disparity grows in games without access to magic items.
4) Games without the option to purchase magic items will generally see an increase in party-crafted items. This can lead to long periods of downtime, which depending on your campaign may or may not be desirable. Now some GMs will say "well I just won't give them any downtime", but a PC can always say "No, I don't want to go on X adventure" and then you have no adventure. Take it from an experienced GM - it's hard to be a GM when you got no players willing to go on your adventures.
5) Characters such as Fighters are hurt the most under this style of play. If you have Weapon Focus, Greater Focus, Specialization, Greater Specialization, and Weapon Training (Glaive), and you keep finding +3 flaming greataxes, that sucks bad.
6) Characters that choose different or odd weapons for style considerations (such as a knife-thrower, or someone who fights with a whip) are hurt under this mode of play, for many of the same reasons as the Fighters.
Also, increasing rarity doesn't really do much to increase the wonder and majesty of a magic item. A +1 dagger is still just the same 1d4+1 with a 5% extra chance to hit. It's still not really very special, just needed to pierce DR X/Magic. So DR X/Magic creatures become inordinately harder. That's not very mystical.
I've found through my experiences, that if you make items a bit more mystical or make them more interesting, then your players will fall in love with them. Give them a few special abilities with style and flair.
Here's an example of one from my games.
The Dragon Crest
This +1 heavy steel shield has an ornate etching of a red dragon's head on the front of it, as if some sort of knightly crest. As a standard action, the wielder may say "By fire, be purged!" and brandish the shield, then head of the dragon seems to spring to life and spray fire from the front of the shield. The shield can unleash up to a total of 5d4 points of fire damage per day, and may be released in bursts of varying strengths before being consumed (so you could deal 1d4 fire damage up to five times per day, or 5d4 fire damage once per day, or some combination in between). In all cases, those caught in the blast receive a DC 11 Reflex save for half damage.
CL: 5th, Market Price: 3,170gp; Creation: 1,585 gp, burning hands.
So now you have a cool-ish item. Give it a background. Something that tells a short story. A simple paragraph noting who made it, where it came from, who was the last known owner, etc.
Also, there's also the option for artifacts. Not all artifacts have to be super powerful. There exist minor artifacts as well, and you could make those types of items pretty close to standard magic items, except with some sort of epic history and a method of special destruction. You can't buy artifacts even in a normal game.
Generally speaking, running a "low magic" or "low magic item" game is opening a can of worms. You really, really need to consider everything that entails, because it's a lot deeper than the difference between a +1 dagger and a +2 dagger.