James I think most of us understand the crunch of cramming so much in the limited space, but just be aware that one big reason for some us buying the APs is convenience. For me its the big motivator as I'm time poor so having something that cuts down on pre-game prep workload is great.
I'm currently GMing Serpent's Skull AP and think that you've got it right there with the stat blocks printed and the stat block referred. But if there were several stat blocks referring to Bestiary 1, some referring to Bestiary 2, some referring APG and then a few references to regional books (Chronicles & Companions) it just becomes a hassale. Or a back breaker in dragging all these books to the game. I guess we could have a computer/laptop at the table, but we don't want that as it tends to be a distraction.
I'm not criticising or anything I just wanted to add that an important feature and benefit of the AP productline is the convienence and ease they provide GMs. Please don't forget that when you guys evaluate the content that goes into the APs. I don't think I'd be buying them if I had to constantly chase things up on the internet or flick through books to find out what some small feat/poison/ability/whatever does.
I'd like you guys to keep doing things the way you're doing them now.
+1
With an emphasis on "I'd like you guys to keep doing things the way you're doing them now." It just seems like a real great balance at the end of the day.
Creative Director
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Think about "Misfit Monsters Redeemed". Neat Idea, but not something I would ever buy because I know none of those monsters are used in any Paizo/Non Paizo AP or adventure. Am I wrong? Well how do I know that? I don't! So I assume that is the case and ignore the book. Now lets say I am getting ready to run Kingmaker as my next AP. If volume 2 and volume 3 of the Kingmaker AP have little "flumph icons" on one of the outside covers to tell me they utilize "Misfit Monsters Redeemed"? Sold!
Interesting you should mention this scenario, since one of the monsters in "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" plays a significant role in the first Jade Regent adventure...
Of course, we do put a full stat block in the adventure for the dire corby, since unlike Bestiary or Bestiary 2, we don't assume the GM has easy access to "Misfit Monsters Revisited."
This was the same issue in the WoTC/Dungeon days. I bought Savage Tide and "Stormwrack" along with it thinking they were a natural fit. Yet Savage Tide never even referenced "Stormwrack" despite it's extensive sea voyages! It did, however, repeatedly reference "The Book of Vile Darkness", which I did not own. Great! Thanks!
Savage Tide did actually reference Stormwrack, although very briefly (pages 21 and 26 of issue #141).
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Think about "Misfit Monsters Redeemed". Neat Idea, but not something I would ever buy because I know none of those monsters are used in any Paizo/Non Paizo AP or adventure. Am I wrong? Well how do I know that? I don't! So I assume that is the case and ignore the book. Now lets say I am getting ready to run Kingmaker as my next AP. If volume 2 and volume 3 of the Kingmaker AP have little "flumph icons" on one of the outside covers to tell me they utilize "Misfit Monsters Redeemed"? Sold!Interesting you should mention this scenario, since one of the monsters in "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" plays a significant role in the first Jade Regent adventure...
** spoiler omitted **
Yup. That's basically my point. I wouldn't consider using just one monster from a monster book "utilizing" said monster book in an AP but the point is the same.
Now, lets say you decided to put at least one monster from "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" in each volume of Jade Regent? That would warrant the "flumph icon" on each volume and you would not have to reprint all the stats. If a DM didn't want to purchase "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" he would know that he has some massaging to do in the AP before he purchases it. If the DM did want to purchase "Misfit Monsters Redeemed" he would know his purchase would be validated by the AP.
It's not so much the missing stats that's the problem, it's not knowing whats missing until I read through the AP that is.
I can see the forum drama "I've bought an AP and it FORCES a NON-CORE book DOWN MY THROAT USING A LONG POLE. OMYGODIMCHOKING. "
It's bad enough with people having issues with PRD stuff being included in APs, I shudder to think what kind of nerdrage would flare if content from Golarion splats would be included without full statblocks (notwithstanding the fact that it's open content as well).
I've given up on debating it; it's not like anyone's actually going to change their mind as a result. And I'd say that Paizo's success is kind of a hint that they're doing the right thing, despite 500-post long "OMG Antagonize is SUXXORS BR0K3!" threads and the like.
In a related note, I played with someone's iPad yesterday and am convinced this is the way to go. I'm tired of carrying two backpacks full of books around and still never having the book I want. I'll just carry the few books that it's handy to have hardcopy and PDFs of the rest.
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Chief Technical Officer
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However, wouldn't it benefit everyone to just put some little icons on one of the outside covers of the AP volumes (or stand alone adventures) to indicate what rule books are referenced within them? Not only does doing this allow the consumer to make informed choices about what they are buying but it could drive consumers into books that they may not otherwise consider purchasing at all.
I'm not a fan of the icon concept because A) you'd need a chart to figure out what all the icons mean, and B) our books would start looking like NASCAR fire suits... but we do actually list all of the books we refer to in a given volume on the credits page these days. (Note, though, that we say "This product makes use of X, Y, and Z," which is not necessary identical to "You must refer to X, Y, and Z to use this product.")
I'm not a fan of the icon concept because A) you'd need a chart to figure out what all the icons mean, and B) our books would start looking like NASCAR fire suits... but we do actually list all of the books we refer to in a given volume on the credits page these days. (Note, though, that we say "This product makes use of X, Y, and Z," which is not necessary identical to "You must refer to X, Y, and Z to use this product.")
Also the problem as Vic noted is where this key would be located. If for instance an AP volume had a little block of icons with the flumph, a dragons head, a mini troll, a Sword, A knight riding a Gryphon, a crystal Ball, and a fire icon there needs to be an easily acceptable key to these that explain them. The problem is that would take up a page of the ap, a portion of the back, or a space on the web. The problems there arise as if they are in the ap, then some people wont be able to look into them (buying online, or in shops that shrinkwrap stuff to prevent browsing) as well as taking up an already cramped page count and use alot of ink and whatnot, if its on the back theres no room for a blurb explaining the summary, if its online it becomes the same "I have no internet where i shop or play" argument... It just becomes a hassle. Now for their online story they could add tags to the various products but thats kind of a different conversation.
... good stuff ...
Well, it all seems fine to me as it is - but then again I'm not one of the ones who thinks it's an issue.
I think that Paizo has decided to take a specific path (building on the material they've created), and there's some folks out there who don't like it (i.e. want some sort of Pathfinder Core Only stamp on Adventure Paths, whatever that entails). It's unfortunate for them, but I think it's unlikely that Paizo will suddenly backtrack, and I hope they don't.
Then again (looks up at the Superscriber tag) it's not surprising I feel that way.
Well, it all seems fine to me as it is - but then again I'm not one of the ones who thinks it's an issue.
I think that Paizo has decided to take a specific path (building on the material they've created), and there's some folks out there who don't like it (i.e. want some sort of Pathfinder Core Only stamp on Adventure Paths, whatever that entails). It's unfortunate for them, but I think it's unlikely that Paizo will suddenly backtrack, and I hope they don't.
Then again (looks up at the Superscriber tag) it's not surprising I feel that way.
I fully concur. Must really be the tag. :)
I think it's necessary that the adventures use the expanded options. Otherwise there's a power skew between the PCs and the adventure cast.
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Well, it all seems fine to me as it is - but then again I'm not one of the ones who thinks it's an issue.
I think that Paizo has decided to take a specific path (building on the material they've created), and there's some folks out there who don't like it (i.e. want some sort of Pathfinder Core Only stamp on Adventure Paths, whatever that entails). It's unfortunate for them, but I think it's unlikely that Paizo will suddenly backtrack, and I hope they don't.
Then again (looks up at the Superscriber tag) it's not surprising I feel that way.
I fully concur. Must really be the tag. :)
I think it's necessary that the adventures use the expanded options. Otherwise there's a power skew between the PCs and the adventure cast.
I thought Paizo were trying to avoid power-creep.
As you can see from my tags, I'm not a superscriber because I don't want a load of extra rules. I subscribe to the adventure paths for... wait for it... wait for it... adventures!
It's not going to affect me either way but I wouldn't object to a line of text on the back of each AP and Module that states which books are needed to run it.
You don't need fancy symbols, just a line of text.
It's not going to affect me either way but I wouldn't object to a line of text on the back of each AP and Module that states which books are needed to run it.
You don't need fancy symbols, just a line of text.
I do think this is probably the best way.
I just checked my copy of Broken Moon (arrived yesterday - woo!) and saw where Paizo currently puts it. As noted by Vic, it's on the credits page and is fairly simple and concise, and even makes reference to the PRD. However, it's also very small and it disappears completely within all the rest of the text in the credits page (so it's no wonder people may not know it's there).
To be perfectly honest, I think it would be best if that sentence appeared in a standard location on the back cover. IMO.
I think it's necessary that the adventures use the expanded options. Otherwise there's a power skew between the PCs and the adventure cast.I thought Paizo were trying to avoid power-creep.
The power skew I'm talking about does not occur due to power creep, at least not the way I interpret it. Having the PCs use the new books but not the NPCs creates an environment where PCs may have options that NPCs cannot be prepared for, because possible answers are not available for them. New books can give the PCs new options that aren't more powerful because they might be contained by other new options, but only if they are available to the opposition. To me that is not necessarily power creep; even balanced new options might possibly still create a power skew if they are only available to one side.
That is why I want Paizo to have all options from all rulebooks available when creating adventures.