I'm working on a new character, and I'm currious what people think. The rest of the party consists of an Oracle of an unknown type, some form of caster who controls undead (not sure if he is planning cleric or wizard), and 1 undefined with an undetermined player. We will be starting at level 1.
Abridged background: I was born to a noble family in a prominent house. At the age of 12, my house participated in a rebellion and the rebels lost. I was able to escape as I watched my family cut down before my eyes. I joined the commoner's who were rebelling, but recently decided they were petty thieves.
Human Cavalier: Order of the Shield
15 point buy
str 16
dex 14
con 10
int 13
wis 10
cha 12
Feats:
1: Combat Reflexes, Body Guard, Swap Places(teamwork)
3: In Harm's Way
5: Dodge
6: Mobility (Bonus Feat)
7: Combat Patrol
8: Stand Still (Order Power, improved from normal)
Traits: undetermined. Want something that gives know(nobility) that fits my background. Likely taking Poverty Stricken as the other for survival.
Skills I care about:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knowledge(nobility), Knowledge(History), Knowledge(local), Ride, Sense Motive, Survival
I get 7 skill points/level using my favored class. I am thinking I will keep Ride, Knowledge(nobility), survival, and diplomacy maxed and split points on the others. I will likely throw some points elsewhere, like heal, as we go along. Perception would be nice, but I'm not really sure I have the points for it and someone else should be getting it.
I am planning on going sword and board, without the ability to go for mounted combat frequently enough to make it worthwhile. When I am mounted, I will be more likely to use my size advantage to control a greater area for stand still.
Overall, I am worried about the party's damage output. Without taking power attack until 9 at the earliest, only a 16 str, and going sword and board without TWF, I wont be bringing the damage to the table. I like where the build is going though. Anyone have anyadvice?
I am not quite sure what kind of role you envision your character for: Tank? Damage dealer? Battlefield controller? What do you put your favored class bonus into?
Your Con is a bit low IMO. Even with a high hit die such as the cavalier's I would not go beneath a 14, or a 12 plus toughness or favored bonus into HPs.
Do you want the cavalier for its riding bonuses? For its challenge? Seems to me like you might simply use the fighter and be better off with it - especially considering you are worrying about damage output.
Regarding traits, I personally like useful ones such as reactionary. Combine it with improved initiative, and you are at a +6 to initiative, totaling to a +8 considering your dex above. Acting first is always useful, particularly if you want to be some kind of bodyguard which your feat and order choice implies to me.
Poverty stricken sounds like a good choice fitting your background well.
Maybe you can give more details and answers to the questions above, then I might come up with some ideas :-)
This incarnation is very much a tank/controller. I'm not sure about this role though, since I have never seen it done in a game before.
Fighter would be more of a problem, with having significantly fewer class skills and skill points while not really bumping my DPR up much without expending all the feats I would gain.
I would gain 3 feats by the level I outlined, but lose 1 teamwork feat (no one else will be taking it, so it is useless without the cavalier ability), so I net 2. That loses some of my utility. In order to really gain anything in the way of DPR, I would need to spend at least 2 of those feats on weapon focus and spec, and the 3rd likely on power attack. Overall, I think that will be a wash when compared to challenge, which will bost my damage more against BBEGs but leaves mooks harder.
I may be able to take a Ranger and get what I want, but in general I see that as an even lower DPR unless I am fighting my favored enemy (which would start as humans from my backstory). It solves some of my skill problems, but it would give me an issue with wisdom if I wanted to cast spells (or go skirmisher).
I am currently spending my favored class on skill points, though may switch that in later levels after I get decent ranks in what I want.
I agree with you on my con. If I had more points, con would be my next stat. But I prefer not to dump anything, especially my will save, and I like the idea of keeping my charisma and int bonuses. I may drop my dex to 13, and put my first bump in it, and up my con to 12.
Oh god, now I have the thought to use 13-13-13-12-12-12.
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If you're looking to optimize, you need to either change your feats or order.
Bodyguard is awesome with order of the dragon (since the AC bonus you grant improves as you level)
OOTShield is the only core order that grants a to hit bonus for challenge. This encourages TWF (since it helps you itertives hit and get more challenge damage)
Also the build grants an improved standstill (a lockdown feat, great for a tank). You get the feats to do it but mounted has to wait. That's ok, cause room is easier when monsters get bigger. Big Game Hunter rocks with non matched TWF weapons (it's effectively Wpn Fcs+specialization vs nearly everything over cr 9.
I'd suggest:
1-Tactician: Paired opportunists (extra dpr and you should use allies/mount to block enemy most, grants EVERYBODY free AOO if.enemy provokes)
TWF, Improved Shieldbash
3- Doubleslice
5-Power Attack
6-Mounted Combat
7- Shieldslam
8- Stem the tide (standstill)
9- Outflank, ITWF
11- Shieldmaster
12- Critical Focus
13- Staggering Critical
15- Two Weapon Rend
17-Ride by Attack
18- Spirited Charge
19- Mounted Shield
*You could also take Dazing Assault at 12, and TWR at 13 and Big Game Hunter at 15.
(Depending on your Wpn, Scimitar+shield go crit, hammer go assault)
That loses some of my utility. In order to really gain anything in the way of DPR, I would need to spend at least 2 of those feats on weapon focus and spec, and the 3rd likely on power attack.
Are you taking into account the fighters Weapon Training when you say this? Given that it boosts to hit AND damage on a group of weapons, that alone will provide a distinctive full time boost to you DPS.
I don't like Paired opportunist. I can count the number of times an opponent has provoked an AoO from myself and an adjacent ally simultaneously since I was playing 3.0 on 1 hand. I see the feat as potentially useful if you are going for a reach wall, but even then it is limitted.
OotDragon would be nice, but the edicts do not work with my character background or goals which are not outlined above. I also don't care for any of their order abilities except for level 2. The challenge is best with other martial characters, but I am not sure I will have any of those. I doubt I would ever use strategy, and Act as One is powerful in some situations but I doubt will be powerful for me and the allies I anticipate.
Are there any other ways you know of to increase the AC bonus from Aid Annother?
If I go TWF with a shield, as you suggest, every feat must be dedicated to it, and it doesn't really become powerful until shield master removes the penalties. In addition, I would need to readjust my stats to meet the 15 dex requirement on TWF, and give it bumps if I wanted the later feats. I was planning on leaving my dex at 14 for most of my career.
I am not convinced that TWF is more optimal than other methods for the cost. The extra damage output requires almost all of my resources. Simultaneously, DPR is not my primary concern. You will notice that my orriginal build did not even include power attack, the single biggest feat for increasing your DPR as a full BAB character.
Also, where is Big Game Hunter? I am not familiar with this feat and can't find it in the psrd.
Thanks for the comments, its just not really the way I'm looking to go.
That loses some of my utility. In order to really gain anything in the way of DPR, I would need to spend at least 2 of those feats on weapon focus and spec, and the 3rd likely on power attack.Are you taking into account the fighters Weapon Training when you say this? Given that it boosts to hit AND damage on a group of weapons, that alone will provide a distinctive full time boost to you DPS.
I may have been forgetting it. +1 to hit and +1 to damage ~= +3.5 damage in DPR calculations, depending on base damage. The Fighter's bonus keeps up with the challenge bonus, assuming I do not get the Order of the Shield bonus for them attacking someone else. I would get a bonus overall, but would be pulling even against challenge opponents without those feats.
This incarnation is very much a tank/controller. I'm not sure about this role though, since I have never seen it done in a game before.
...
I may be able to take a Ranger and get what I want, but in general I see that as an even lower DPR unless I am fighting my favored enemy (which would start as humans from my backstory). It solves some of my skill problems, but it would give me an issue with wisdom if I wanted to cast spells (or go skirmisher)....
I agree with you on my con. If I had more points, con would be my next stat. But I prefer not to dump anything, especially my will save, and I like the idea of keeping my charisma and int bonuses. I may drop my dex to 13, and put my first bump in it, and up my con to 12.
Oh god, now I have the thought to use 13-13-13-12-12-12.
I believe I understand better what you're trying to get at from a roleplaying perspective. So there playing cavalier fits. But am I correct that you basically do not use the riding abilities, one of the main features of the class?
Some good advice have been given above. I got the feeling - especially since you mentioned it - that ranger might accomplish the same things you want. Regarding the wisdom/spell issue: Do you take a look at the skirmisher archetype? The hunter's tricks are much less dependent on your wisdom than the spells. Also, even if you did not take that one, you do not need "natural" wisdom to actually cast spells. You can wear a headband for wisdom, for example, and be able to cast spells.
Ranger gives you lots of skills, so there you are fine. If you chose the (classic) TWF style or the new sword+shield style, you can also keep your dex at the level you mentioned and still be fine, since you do not need to meet the prerequisites.
If you wanted to keep if flexible, you could mix it with the guide archetype, e.g. guide+skirmisher. You would not require wisdom for magic, get various fighting skills such as TWF or Weapon+Shield without prerequisites requirements, lots of skills and a few nice bonus feats.
What you would not get is the ability to grant teamwork feats to allies. However, seeing that you are unsure about the martial prowess of your party, the benefit of that might be small in the first place.
So I would suggest ranger (skirmisher) from what I have seen so far, possibly ranger (skirmisher+guide). I am not sure about your campaign, but urban ranger might be something even more useful for you...
Regarding the general setup of tank/controller, in my experience fighters are particularly well suited for the task. You can get all the fighter-only or high-bab high-feat-count dependent feats (criticals, trips, improved blind-fight etc.) and shield abilities.
Ranger would be a close second in my opinion here.
For controlling, combat reflexes is the staple, then comes trip and disarm IMO. If you can afford, picking up unarmed strike and using a reach weapon works very well to threaten great areas. Step-up, nimble steps, disruptive and others can make you particularly nasty against specific enemies.
Tanking is rather simple: Get high AC, combat expertise - AND BE A THREAT. If you're an impenetrable bastion but no threat, enemies might just ignore you and take care of your friends first. So you need to be someone who nobody wants to leave unchecked here. Possibly you might pick a trait such as dangerously curious (best done with the skills from the ranger) and gain Use Magic Device as a class skill this way. Then get wands of fly, mirror image, blur, silence etc., scrolls of antimagic field and so on. You will be pretty self-reliant and surprising to enemy casters. :-)
Combining the both rules can be easier achieved with fighter or ranger IMO. Cavalier could be worth it if more than one strong martial character is in the party or if you make good use of the riding skill.
I'd suggest:
1-Tactician: Paired opportunists, Combat Reflexes
3- Weapon Focus: Longsword
5-Power Attack
6-Furious Focus
7- Body Guard
8- Stem the tide (standstill)
9- Outflank, In Harm's Way
11- Dazing Assault
12- Dreadful Carnage
13- Big Game Hunter
15-
17-
18-
19-
Now, that my be moreto your liking.
1. Paired Opportunists- doesn't need and opponent to provoke from all of you. If it provokes from ANY of you, you ALL get the AOO for free.
2. You want to tank you said. If you don't do decent damage you WILL be ignored by anything with a brain, so you need power attack.
3. TWF works great with the free flank buddy, but if you don'tlike it then
2handed works best- carrying a shield means you're 1handing the sword- lowering dpr again.
4. If your determined to 1h and shield, you want max damage from it. Furious focus pretty much guarantees a 1st hit. It also helps you suck the -5 from Dazing assault, which is too good of an effect to pass up.
5. If you take Furious Focus then Dreadful Carnage is nice and thematic for a war leader.
Big Game Hunter is fromCurse of the crimson throne. Adds +1 to hit and +2 damage vs large creatures or bigger (On pfsrd)
Again needed for compensating for lower damage. Past CR 9, like 80% of enemies are big. :)