If I was to do this here's how I would go about it:
Fighter Archetype:
Replace Bravery with Blade trust: Swift action give your weapon a +1 enhancement bonus, +1 for every 4 levels after level 2. May be used for a number of rounds per day equal to your fighter level + a mental stat mod (not sure which).
Not that bravery is great or anything, but you're basically replacing your class ability with a common weapon enhancement. This can be replicated by an oil of magic weapon for 10 rounds at the cost of 50 gp; or your party's wizard could just cast it on you. At 5th level and thereafter, greater magic weapon gives a scaling bonus that lasts a minimum of 5 hours; whereas the most you'd be getting would be 3 minutes at 20th level; and only if you had +10 in your appropriate mental stat.
Replace weapon training 1, 2, 3 ,4: Gain a spell as a spell like ability. This ability may be used 1/day +1 time for every 3 levels after it is gained. The level of the spell you can choose is equal to the level of weapon training replaced +1 or lower.
This pretty much neuters you. You're replacing your most amazing class ability in terms of combat efficiency with vastly outdated spells. Weapon Training gives up to +5 hit/damage, which stacks with Specialization, and is multipliable on crits. By the time you actually gain access to a new spell-like ability, you could have easily purchased (or commissioned) a useful magic item that does the same thing for relatively cheap, while retaining your strongest class feature.
Replace armor training with the following: Choose either a familiar, bloodline or school specialty. Gain that ability as if you are of the appropriate class of level equal to your fighter level -2.
The familiar and/or school specialty would mostly be useless to you without actual spellcasting. For example, familiars cannot deliver spell-like abilities; and making it class level -2 is arguably worse. It means that non-spell focused things like the necromancer's Rebuke Undead would be noticeably weaker; though I could see the Diviner's initiative bonus being nice. However, you're going to lose a lot of AC from this for a minor benefit.
Replace Armor Mastery with: Spell resistance = fighter level +11.
This isn't terrible actually. It's basically a 50% chance to dodge spells cast by equal-level casters. Quality spell resistance is pretty difficult to find sometimes, and this is actually pretty decent. However, it would cap at 31, which means against a caster with spell penetration + ioun stone you only have a 35% chance to evade the spell, and only a 15% if they have Improved Spell Penetration. Still; this isn't bad.
Replace weapon mastery with: Spell reflection -- if you make the save throw against a spell or spell like ability you may spend an immediate action to turn the spell on the caster as per spell turning you may use this once per spell caster.
Now this would actually be a really cool ability. However, "only once per caster" is pretty harsh, and poorly worded. Likewise, at 20th, there's nothing wrong with letting them keep it active all the time, since you can only spend so many immediate actions per round, you're already limited to 1 (or 2 with the right supplements) reflects per round, and it requires you to make your save (also iffy, especially if they're targeting your weaker saves).
Just offering some constructive criticsm. ^-^
I appreciate your feedback Ashiel.
I disagree on a few points -- I think having a second level spell as a spell like at 5th level isn't a bad deal, same with a 3rd at 9th, 4th at 13th and 5th at 17th. Especially with multiple uses in a day. This could be something as simple as shield for a two weapon or two handed fighter, or grease, or see invisibility. For the third level it could be haste, and the fourth level could be stoneskin. I wouldn't mind it being a number of spell like abilities with total level equal to something instead though. That way you could get several first level spells, or a couple of higher level spells. Perhaps a number of spell levels of spell like abilities equal to your fighter level, each of which can be used 1 time per day +1 per 4 fighter levels you have?
The familiar might seem weak at first, but once you have one it uses your BAB and you can do things to increase its size. I would amend this with having the hexes be one per time you give up armor mastery and probably have the familiar be more like an animal companion in scope -- perhaps have it be an improved familiar from the get go and uses the animal companion chart instead of the familiar chart. Kind of like the diabloist prestige class.
First off I love what has been done thus far with Pathfdiner, with a few exceptions, however am I the only one here who really wishes pathfinder would finally sit down and create an arcane caster with full base attack bonus? Even Jason Bulmahn has said in an interview it could be done, they just wouldn't get much else, but you know what, I am okay with that. More than anything else, I am just getting the feeling that we are getting swamped with these intermediate combat arcane casters. We have the Arcane Dualist, Magus, and soon the Battle Bard.
Am I alone here?
P.S. The idea was full caster levels, but only 4th or 5th level spells.
I'd like to see a Full Bab arcane caster built on the Ranger/Paladin chassis. Full BAB, some class features, and arcane spells up to 4th level. I've seen some 3rd party stuff that does exactly that and it looks good but I'd like PF version as some people don't allow 3rd party stuff in their game or so you could use it in PFS games.
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I'd like to see a Full Bab arcane caster built on the Ranger/Paladin chassis. Full BAB, some class features, and arcane spells up to 4th level. I've seen some 3rd party stuff that does exactly that and it looks good but I'd like PF version as some people don't allow 3rd party stuff in their game or so you could use it in PFS games.
Although not official Paizo content, Wayfinder issue 5 will have exactly such a class!
Just for fun, I once designed an everyman hero commoner archetype. Just an ordinary dude who happens to have an amazing destiny, represented by a metric boatload of floating luck bonuses, re-roll mechanics, and evasion-like defenses.
Thank you that gives me an excellent starting point on what to look for -- I think I'll also rip some of the cavalier's tactician ability too to have a 'community' helper sort.
Just for fun, I once designed an everyman hero commoner archetype. Just an ordinary dude who happens to have an amazing destiny, represented by a metric boatload of floating luck bonuses, re-roll mechanics, and evasion-like defenses.Thank you that gives me an excellent starting point on what to look for -- I think I'll also rip some of the cavalier's tactician ability too to have a 'community' helper sort.Ooo. Tactician would fit that archetype perfectly.
In fact, so would the inquisitor's judgment ability, if you replace the sacred/profane bonus with a luck bonus.
Heck at this point we almost have a mimic character -- but yeah some of the judgements could work really well -- a sort of aura character could be neat -- but I think that would stray too much from the non-magical bits I'm hoping to stay close to.
Luck is a bit more undefined and I'm good with throwing such bonuses around -- but auras aren't so much and tend to fall more squarely into the magic area.
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My idea for a full BaB, paladin-like arcane caster type:
Full BaB. High Fort and Will.
Can cast without spell failure in light armor.
Intelligence and spellbook based casting; spells and slots progress as Paladin (I originally gave them casting from first level, including cantrips, but no higher than 4th level spells. It was cantrips added to Paladin casting, stretched an extra couple of levels. i.e. no first level spells until second level. At 20th level slots were: 4 (cantrips), 4, 4, 4, 3.
Some of the basic class abilities:
2nd level: Martial Casting - perform somatic components of spellcasting with a held weapon.
6th level: Abbreviated Casting - cast a spell at least two levels lower than the highest spell level you can cast (at 6th level, cantrips only) and make one weapon attack in the same round.
8th level: Receive Disruptive as a bonus feat.
11th Level: Cast without spell failure in medium armor
13th Level: Improved Abbreviated Casting - cast a spell at least one level lower than the highest spell level you can cast (at 13th level, 3rd level spells) and make one weapon attack as a full round action.
14th Level: Receive Spellbreaker as a bonus feat.
17th Level: Greater Abbreviated Casting - cast any spell available and make one weapon attack as a full round action
20th level: Master of Combat Arcana - All class spells cast by the character are quickened spells (sounds very powerful - but remember, nothing higher than 4th level spells!).
The class also allows the user to choose two Combat Arcana "paths" to follow. These provide two supernatural abilities, much like school powers, to the character. They get stronger as the character levels, but they only get 3+Int modifier uses per day, ever.
Possible paths:
Arcane Maneuvers:
a. Make combat maneuvers without provoking AOOs, using intelligence in place of strength.
b. Make combat maneuver check telekinetically to a target within 30. Use Intelligence in place of strength.
c. Make a combat maneuver check telekinetically against all targets of the character's choice within 30'. Use intelligence in place of strength.
Arcane Mobility:
a. Swift action to ignore difficult terrain, double base of movement, gain climb or swim speed of 1/2 base movement for one round.
b. Use first level abilities for 1 minute, or teleport only the character and his worn and held gear 10' per ability use.
c. Use two Arcane Mobility uses to teleport himself and party member as the Teleport spell, using class level as caster level, or expend four uses as a Plane Shift.
Spell Shield:
a. Summon a shield of force as a move action for one minute. Provides a shield bonus to AC of 2 + class level / 4.
b. Basic shield can be summoned as a swift action, and now negates Magic Missile damage. It also now gives a +2 Luck bonus to saves and grants the character Evasion while the spell shield is active. Each use grants a minute of spell use.
c. Shield may be summoned as an immediate action. Alternatively, the character may summon the shield as if it were a spell of Spell Turning, turning back the first 6+1d4 levels of spells cast at the spellsword back at the spellcaster. Once the spell turning levels are depleted, the shield disappears. The character must use another minute of Spell Shield to bring the shield back up.
Weapon Bond:
a. This is pretty much like Paladin weapon enhancement, except allowable enhancements are: Brilliant Energy, Flaming, Flaming Burst, Frost, Icy Burst, Shock, Shocking Burst, Returning, Throwing and Thundering. The weapon may also be summoned to his hand if it is removed while it is imbued, if the weapon is within line of sight. It is magical and cold iron for overcoming DR.
b. Can be imbued as a swift action, counts as adamantine versus damage reduction. Can be used as a spell storing weapon now, storing one spell level per 3 levels of the class. Summoning works up to 10 miles per class level.
c. One imbuing use can make his weapon cast greater dispel magic on the next target the weapon hits, using the character's class level as caster level. The character can scribe spells onto the weapon, at the same cost of scribing them into a book. The weapon can be summoned from any plane - only effects that block teleportation or plane shift can stop the spellsword from summoning his bonded weapon.
Spell List:
Cantrips: Resistance, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, MEssage, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation
Level 1: Endure Elements, Hold Portal, Protection from X, Shield, Mage Armor, Detect Undead, True Strike, Magic Aura, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Persion, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Magic Weapon, Reduce Person
Level 2: Obscure Object, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, See Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy, Gust of Wind, SHatter, Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, False Life, Ghoul Touch, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cast's Grace, Darkvision, Eagles Spelndor, Fox's Cunning, Levitate, Make whole, Owl's Wisdom, Spider Climb, Whispering Wind
3. Dispel Magic, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Arcane Sight, Tongues, Heroism, Daylight, Wind Wall, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Gentle Repose, Ray of Exaustion, Vampiric Touch, Blink, Haste, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Shrink Item, Water Breathing
4. Dimensional Anchor, Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser; Remove Curse, Stoneskin, Dimension Door, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Fire Shield, Interposinbg Hand, Teledinesis, Invisibility Greater, Enervation.
With the arcana to boost AC, haste yourself, enhance your weapon, boost your attack bonus, and still have spell casting I'm not sure how the Magus doesn't do it honestly.
Alucard wasn't 'just' a mix up of arcane and martial might -- he's the star of an anime, a master vampire, and more. As such he's not going to 'fit' into a standard class -- I'm not sure of the other but I imagine they too could have this applied to them.
I guess my question is: What's wrong with the magus that he doesn't fill what you want other than the fact he's "not full bab" and why is full bab such a thing to you?
What anime is Alucard in? I'm talking about Castlevania Alucard, not Helsing.
You could say the same things about every classic fantasy character. Conan the Barbarian doesn't 100% fit into Barbarian class. Nonetheless he, along with one or two other characters, are the basis of that class. Why not a class based on Richard Rahl, Elric, Rand al'Thor, etc?
What I don't like about Magus is the thing I don't like about Monk. Give him a medium base attack, then let him boost that (flurry/arcana) situationally and say "well he might as WELL have full BAB, stop whining". Just suck it up and give it full BAB.
Personally I think the spell list is wonky. There's too much utility and general wizard stuff and not enough stabbination. Also, I'd prefer a spontaneous caster with more slots and fewer spells.
I just want to say I DO like the Magus class, I'm just saying that, considering the breadth of fantasy fiction and versions of this archetype the class is drawing from, it will NEVER please everyone 100%. I am merely one of the people it doesn't please 100%. I am nonetheless anxious to play one :)
I just want to say I DO like the Magus class, I'm just saying that, considering the breadth of fantasy fiction and versions of this archetype the class is drawing from, it will NEVER please everyone 100%. I am merely one of the people it doesn't please 100%. I am nonetheless anxious to play one :)
Well I guess there is that.
I appreciate your feedback Ashiel.
I disagree on a few points -- I think having a second level spell as a spell like at 5th level isn't a bad deal, same with a 3rd at 9th, 4th at 13th and 5th at 17th. Especially with multiple uses in a day. This could be something as simple as shield for a two weapon or two handed fighter, or grease, or see invisibility. For the third level it could be haste, and the fourth level could be stoneskin. I wouldn't mind it being a number of spell like abilities with total level equal to something instead though. That way you could get several first level spells, or a couple of higher level spells. Perhaps a number of spell levels of spell like abilities equal to your fighter level, each of which can be used 1 time per day +1 per 4 fighter levels you have?
I think the biggest problem is, I was reading your post incorrectly, and thought it was always 1/day (such as you have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell 1/day, instead of 5/day, 4/day, 3/day, 2/day, and 1/day. However, I still think weapon training is better because it's difficult to emulate. Assuming you're playing on a team, then you're probably going to be hasted at 9th level almost every fight anyway, so trading +3 hit/dmg/CMB for haste 1/day, especially since it can be dispelled. I could see an argument for long duration buffs, or things like blur and mirror image though.
There's also the fact that spells can be easily replicated with magic items. Whether consumable items like potions, recharging items, continuous items, things like boots of speed, or event intelligent magic items, there are fair methods for gaining access to magic effects without expending class features. A 20th level Fighter with 5 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 3 3rd level spells, 2 4th level spells, and 1 5th level spell per day is just a 20th level warrior with some cheap magic trinkets. Doubly so when you factor action economy, since using these (at this level fairly weak) spells means you're not actively filling the warrior role.
A 20th level warrior could have a few cheap magic items that used some spells x/day. For the whole shebang (5, 4, 3, 2, 1) it would cost 18,000 + 22,400 + 18,750 + 9,600 + 2000 or 70,750 gp, which is about 1/12th your Wealth by Level, and would allow you to select a few key spells that you'd like to use from any class.
However, I will say if you got to choose new spells each time (so you had 5 1st level at 5/day at 20th) then it would potentially be worth it, as you'd end up as some sort of pseudo-sorcerer, since you'd actually have a pretty solid selection of spells, strong caster level, and an amount of versatility (spell-like abilities are harder to shut down, which would actually be pretty amazing).
So I guess it comes down to how you do it. If it's set up so that it's just mimicing common low level spells (most likely the case if they have a very small selection of choose-able spells), then I'd definitely take the Weapon Training of the standard Fighter, since in a group you could get all those spells cast for you, or get some cheap magic items to do it for you. However, if it's it's a 5x5, 4x4, 3x3, 2x2, 1x1, progression, and you have a fairly good variety of spell options, then it would be much, much more appealing.
The familiar might seem weak at first, but once you have one it uses your BAB and you can do things to increase its size. I would amend this with having the hexes be one per time you give up armor mastery and probably have the familiar be more like an animal companion in scope -- perhaps have it be an improved familiar from the get go and uses the animal companion chart instead of the familiar chart. Kind of like the diabloist prestige class.
That would be fairly cool, but the ranger kind of already does this with an animal companion. The problem is that the familiar's BAB only matters as far as their delivering spells go, but you don't cast spells, you use spell-like abilities. Increasing the size of standard familiars is generally a laughable prospect, as even with liberal amounts of size increases, they're usually not very strong. The best you can usually do with "war-familiars" is goofing around with liberal applications of spells like polymorph. However, that option is less appealing in Pathfinder due to the Polymorph revisions.
Even the improved familiars would require a significant investment of resources to try and make useful. For most animal companions, some armor and an amulet can get most of your power for you, but familiars tend to require a lot more work to make combat worthy (including things like imps and pseudodragons). Plus, it requires resources to revive them when they die, meaning that having them front-line with you can quickly become hazardous where it hurts (your +3 wallet of holding).
However, let me say that I like the ideas you're bringing up. I think with a bit of refinement and tinkering, you could indeed make a very appealing class.
First off I love what has been done thus far with Pathfdiner, with a few exceptions, however am I the only one here who really wishes pathfinder would finally sit down and create an arcane caster with full base attack bonus? Even Jason Bulmahn has said in an interview it could be done, they just wouldn't get much else, but you know what, I am okay with that. More than anything else, I am just getting the feeling that we are getting swamped with these intermediate combat arcane casters. We have the Arcane Dualist, Magus, and soon the Battle Bard.
Am I alone here?
P.S. The idea was full caster levels, but only 4th or 5th level spells.
According to this request ...
D10 HD/ full BAB, good Fort and Will
arcane armor mastery [5% reduction in ASF at 1st and every 3rd level to a maximum of a 35% reduction at 18th level]
ranger spell progression - caster level equal to class level but NO casting ability before 5th, including no ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items [prepared spells, INT-based], sorcerer/wizard spells 1st - 4th [choose conjuration or evocation school when spell casting ability is acquired - you gain a free spellbook at this level with 3+ unenhanced INT modifier 1st level spells from your chosen school - advancement grants you 1 free spell from this school of a level that you can cast in the same manner that a wizard learns 2 free spells per level of advancement]
18th level acquires Eldritch Knight's capstone ability.
Class proficiencies with light & medium armor, shields, simple weapons and all martial weapons.
Skills: 6+ INT modifier per level. Class skills: Climb, Craft, Knowledge (arcana, religion, planes), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Bonus feats every 4th level: feats that have a caster level requirement, metamagic or item creation.
No idea if something like this has already been done and I've missed it.
fair points
Fair points, however that's the beauty of choice -- by allowing the player to choose the familiar then he gets to do just that -- I'm not forcing it on him, and he is free to peruse other options that I listed as well (including hexes, school specialties, or a bloodline). I might just give the familiar as a free option with losing armor training 1.
And I know not everyone would be for these trades -- that's ok since it isn't for everyone. Some will look at this and go "Alright now I can have those abilities I want without relying on the caster to do them for me," while others will say, "Meh, I'll wait for the wizard to cast fly or haste on me instead of burning these other abilities."
I'm good with both choices.
For the spell like abilities I would probably go like this:
Weapon training 1 = 2 spell levels of spells usable as spell like abilities 1+1 time per day per 4 fighter levels. If you choose 2 first level spells then they have individual uses per day.
Weapon training 2 = 3 more spell levels of spells usable as spell like abilities 1+1 time per day per 4 fighter levels pass level 9. Otherwise same as weapon training 1 replacement.
Weapon training 3 = 4 more spell levels of spells usable
Weapon training 4 = 5 more spell levels.
Allowing retraining of these spell likes every 4 levels like a sorcerer is a great idea.
On the spell turning I think once a round is a bit much but then probably not too much worse than what you are giving up so I would test it in play and see how it goes before sticking to my '1 time per caster per day' theory.
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As to magical item replacement -- yes you are right -- the same could be said of most the arcane archer's abilities, several sorcerer abilities, some wizard abilites, monk abilities (like deflect arrows or evasion) and so on.
In fact *most* abilities and spells can be replicated by items -- I'm alright with that. It gives those that need those abilities to have them even if they normally couldn't. Of course by spending gold on it you can't spend that gold on something else.
It's just a matter of where you put your opportunity costs at.
Fair points, however that's the beauty of choice -- by allowing the player to choose the familiar then he gets to do just that -- I'm not forcing it on him, and he is free to peruse other options that I listed as well (including hexes, school specialties, or a bloodline). I might just give the familiar as a free option with losing armor training 1.
And I know not everyone would be for these trades -- that's ok since it isn't for everyone. Some will look at this and go "Alright now I can have those abilities I want without relying on the caster to do them for me," while others will say, "Meh, I'll wait for the wizard to cast fly or haste on me instead of burning these other abilities."
I'm good with both choices.
Options are good. Agreed. ^-^
For the spell like abilities I would probably go like this:
Weapon training 1 = 2 spell levels of spells usable as spell like abilities 1+1 time per day per 4 fighter levels. If you choose 2 first level spells then they have individual uses per day.
Weapon training 2 = 3 more spell levels of spells usable as spell like abilities 1+1 time per day per 4 fighter levels pass level 9. Otherwise same as weapon training 1 replacement.
Weapon training 3 = 4 more spell levels of spells usable
Weapon training 4 = 5 more spell levels.
Allowing retraining of these spell likes every 4 levels like a sorcerer is a great idea.
On the spell turning I think once a round is a bit much but then probably not too much worse than what you are giving up so I would test it in play and see how it goes before sticking to my '1 time per caster per day' theory.
I'm not entirely certain that "spell levels" is a good idea for determining what kinds of spells you get, but I like the idea of making it scale similarly to weapon training. How about something kind of like this?
At 1st level you drop heavy armor proficiency, and get a 1st level spell 2/day as a spell like ability. At 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th you gain a new spell of the next level, increase the number of times per day you could use your old spells by +1, and gain a new spell for each level below (I'd word it a bit differently in the actual description :P).
Thus the progression might look like this:
Level 1
Level 5
Level 9
Level 13
Level 17
You could then take feats such as Empower Spell-like Ability and Quicken Spell-like Ability, granting additional modified uses of your spells. You lack in versatility to some degree, but you have a lot of low-level casting power, and as spell-like abilities it's near impossible to stop you from using your "spells".
Something to consider, perhaps?
In late on this one, but the current best, I think as far as BAB and casting combined is actually slightly higher than represented earlier, has more actual class abilities, but is also far more limited in what "kind" of fighter you are.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 10/Arcane Archer 4 actually gets you to 17 BAB and 17 CL on the full wizard spell list. The problem with armor that EK runs into is mitigated by being a Dex based ranged character, and Imbue Arrow is a decently cool class ability. Though you miss on Weapon Training, you do get access to fighter only feats through Diverse Training, as well as gaining bonus feats, some possible forthcoming Arcane Discoveries (oh Ultimate Magic how I eagerly await you), a free energy enhancement on your arrows, and minor specialist goodies.
I figure if pretty much full Wizard casting and really close to full BAB can work on an archer and still have a few class abilities, there's no reason, theoretically, that something can't be worked out for melee.
Really, if you want to make EK work better, just research custom, advanced versions of Mage Armor and Shield. It allows spell critical to work (though it still can't be combined with Arcane Strike, which is annoying) which is a really cool arcane warrior ability.
Edit: Also, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10 also gets 8th level spells (CL 17) off the sorcerer spell list, 17 BAB, and a fair amount of class features, including +4 to Strength and an awesome bonus to saves. Also works better with the custom Mage Armor and Shield spells, but still pretty good without.
RIP Abjurant Champion...
Why not a spontanous version of the Hexblade that doesn't lose a curse if foe saves vs Curse ability and casting at 1st.
It would have full BAB, bard progression up to 4th level (increase spells known list), raise Curse to 1+ Cha mod (instead of once) no lose a curse if foe saves, and everything else like a normal Hexblade.
You can low Will save to poor if too much, but this work well.
Expand the spell list as it lack many Core and non-core curse spells.
more options
I'm just not fond of giving them a whole lot of spells per day as spell likes.
I don't mind some but they are still getting everything else they get too.
By spell levels here's what I mean.
At level 5 you have 2 levels worth of spell likes to choose -- you can either take 2 first level spells for your spell like abilities or 1 second spell level ability.
So you could have enlarge person and shield or see invisibility.
At 9th level you get 3 more spell levels. You could take fly or darkvision and chill touch, or grease, jump and protection from evil.
At 13th level you get 4 more spell levels. This could be dimension door, or haste and expeditious retreat, or ghoul touch and glitterdust.
At 17th level you get 5 more spell levels, which could be any combination of the spells up to 5 levels.
I don't mind some mixing of these abilities honestly but I wouldn't want this guy to ever have access to something at the same level a wizard has access to. I want him to always stay at least a level behind the wizard's spell level, preferably more.
This is due to the fact that this allows the fighter to negate many of his weaknesses, boost his own abilities significantly, and avoid most of the pitfalls of being a caster too (can still wear armor, can use the abilities regardless of casting stat, doesn't need costly materials, doesn't require somatic or vocal components, etc), in addition to still being a fighter with full BAB d10 hit dice, and access to fighter only feats.
First off I love what has been done thus far with Pathfdiner, with a few exceptions, however am I the only one here who really wishes pathfinder would finally sit down and create an arcane caster with full base attack bonus? Even Jason Bulmahn has said in an interview it could be done, they just wouldn't get much else, but you know what, I am okay with that. More than anything else, I am just getting the feeling that we are getting swamped with these intermediate combat arcane casters. We have the Arcane Dualist, Magus, and soon the Battle Bard.
Am I alone here?
P.S. The idea was full caster levels, but only 4th or 5th level spells.
According to this request ...
D10 HD/ full BAB, good Fort and Will
arcane armor mastery [5% reduction in ASF at 1st and every 3rd level to a maximum of a 35% reduction at 18th level]
ranger spell progression - caster level equal to class level but NO casting ability before 5th, including no ability to use spell trigger and spell completion items [prepared spells, INT-based], sorcerer/wizard spells 1st - 4th [choose conjuration or evocation school when spell casting ability is acquired - you gain a free spellbook at this level with 3+ unenhanced INT modifier 1st level spells from your chosen school - advancement grants you 1 free spell from this school of a level that you can cast in the same manner that a wizard learns 2 free spells per level of advancement]
18th level acquires Eldritch Knight's capstone ability.
Class proficiencies with light & medium armor, shields, simple weapons and all martial weapons.
Skills: 6+ INT modifier per level. Class skills: Climb, Craft, Knowledge (arcana, religion, planes), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Bonus feats every 4th level: feats that have a caster level requirement, metamagic or item creation.
No idea if something like this has already been done and I've missed it.
Its a cool idea. I don't think this has been done, but I wouldn't be surprised if we did see something like this in the upcoming book.
However I do believe 5th level spells spread from level 1-20 could be pulled off with the right restricted spell list and class abilities.
Eh, the armor thing isn't really much of a pitfall. Honestly, a lot of the optimizer folks have found that being able to wear heavy armor is nice, but generally it doesn't make any huge impact on a spellcaster's power or even their durability. A Pathfinder Wizard can sport a 34 AC without dipping into Insight, Luck, Dodge, or Dexterity modifiers (just armor + shield + deflection + natural) without a casting failure.
Another good example is psions. Technically a psion can wear heavy armor (I've actually done this before, and built a psion that pretended to be a warrior) but it's not really very impressive. The armor only helps the squishy factor against enemies that rely on "Death By a Thousand Cuts", and even then that's only if their BAB is pretty bad (most creatures tend to have good attack bonuses, and their BAB applies to all of their attacks, generally).
But back on topic...
I understood what you meant by spell levels, but I'm not sure that's good for game balance. By no means are 9 level 1 spells worth 1 9th level spell, for example (to quote an example I gave to a friend of mine). I see a few concerns that you may wish to address if you wanna make this class.
1) If this is going to be their feature, they need to be able to use it pretty regularly. The example I gave the last time basically allowed them to start with fairly useful spells, and then gave them a lot of casting power as their spells advanced slowly.
I'd likely never play a melee class that gave up its main ability for what amounted to a couple spells per day. At 17th level, getting a single 5th level spell is pretty bad. It's horrible even. Especially since spells generally have a limited duration, and/or can be dispelled. Would you honestly give up Weapon Training +5/+4/+3/+2/+1 for a 5th level spell at 17th level, as a melee class? I wouldn't. Heck, if I was playing a wizard, and I found a prestige class that let me trade a 5th level spell for that, I'd probably have to consider it as a non-melee class (a wizard could definitely make it work, and has the spells to burn for it).
So, you need to give them something that getting otherwise would be difficult. A 5th level spell at 17th isn't that. Even if you can choose your spell levels with a cap of 5th, I'd probably still go with the pseudo-sorcerer theory (more is more). Think Warlock for a moment. The warlock is severely weaker than an actual caster (barring certain dragon magazine content) but just keeps going round to round, so there's little need to conserve.
Because, let's face it, a fighter gets a ton of milage out of Weapon Training. It's the equivalent to 5 more levels in terms of to-hit modifiers, applies +5 damage to each hit (+25 damage per round if all 5 attacks hit), and is multiplied on critical hits, improves your CMB with Disarm and Sunder attempts, and passively multiplies your damage by allowing you to get more hits in (the +5 means your 3rd and 4th iteratives are 25% more likely to land, inflicting tons more damage than you normally would, and squeezing more out of Power Attack).
I wouldn't trade it for Polymorph 1/day.
2) If it's going to be their feature, you don't want it to be something that you can just pickup with a cheap magic item. Polymorph 1/day is nice, but at 17th level, you could easily afford polymorph 5/day if you wanted it. Heck, by that level, you should be sporting armor that has near-continuous death ward and freedom of movement x/day for emergencies.
Now one might say "Well under that thinking, wizards are bad". The thing is, wizards and other casters have lots of spells, and they have them all at full caster level. Ever count up the value of a full-caster's spells per day when converted into magic item values? It's pretty sick. They are magic item generators.
If a character grabs 600,000 out of 880,000 gp worth of spell-replication items, they still haven't come close stepping on the wizard's toes, and won't.
So you want the Fighter to have something that isn't conveniently replicated. A lot of spell-like abilities aren't easily replicated. A few, or even singular powerful ones, are pretty easily replicated.
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In short, you don't want them to be NPC Warrior + Magic Trinkets. If you're going to make it a valid PC-Class, then you'll want it to be good at what it does, and being sub-par and then buffing itself to par is vastly inferior to being par and buffing yourself (or getting buffed) into the superior realm.
This is doubly true since similar buffs don't stack. It doesn't matter if you have Heroism if you have a Bard in the party, nor does it matter if you have Polymorph 1/day if your party's wizard can make you a 1/day item of Giant Form.
Meanwhile, the Fighter gets to soak up all of that, while still enjoying his class features. So, if you really want him to be considerable by giving him a host of low-level spells, then you need to give them in large quantities, and give them some solid options. Get an idea as to how you'd want them to play out.
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An example of how I would play the progression I showed before (from a gameplay estimation).
Low-Levels
1st Level) At this level, I'm pretty much a fighter + enlarge person. Since it's a spell-like ability, I can cast it as a standard action, and I'm saving the wizard a full-round action to cast it on me. What I lose in my action economy, I'm giving to our wizard. I'm cool with this.
5th level) At this level, I continue to use my Enlarge Person but it lasts longer. I pickup Shocking Grasp, which can be used 3/day for 5d6 (average 17.5) in melee, to use against heavily armored foes or enemies with DR. I also pickup Mirror Image 2/day, which I use Defensively.
Med-Levels
9th Level) As 5th but I now have access to Greater Magic Weapon, which gives me a +3 for 9 hours but doesn't stack with magic weapons, but it's nice. I also grab Resist Energy for Defensive buffs, which gives me a nice resistance to multiple energy types as needed.
I pickup Empower Spell-like Ability to get a few higher-powered kicks out of Shocking Grasp, Acid Arrow, or Ray of Enfeeblement.
13th Level) As 9th, except now I have True Strike (to key to Quicken Spell-like Ability) and Acid Arrow (just a conjuration attack which scales decently), Vampiric Touch (offense + defense, great as a coup de grace), Stoneskin for defense (DR 10/adamantine is nice).
I pickup Quicken Enlarge Person, and Quicken True Strike, so I can burst those as swift actions, allowing for smite-like attacks (combos well with Power Attack or Combat Manuever and economy-friendly enlargement in the case enlarge person gets wiped out via Dispel or Disjunction.
High-Level/Endgame
17th level) As 9th, except now I have Dimension Door which allows me to get out of bad terrain or pull a tactical retreat or surgical strike (as a spell-like ability, I can use it even if I can't move), and Polymorph which is mostly a utility power at this level, allowing me to exist in elemental environments, turn into moderately powerful animals (spell-like abilities still function, go me), which can combo well with my solid HP and perfect BAB.
That's how I saw it as playing.
How do you imagine it?
Okay, I have not read all of the thread so I apologize if I repeat something already said.
Perhaps because I love Shadowrun point buy access to magic and I love 2ed kits and Skills & Powers and the new Archtypes, I think I would be satisfied on the "Mage Knight" front by using the following Fighter Archtype: (A similar one could easily be drawn up for a Wizard-influenced Archtype)
Arcane Warrior: At 1st level the Oathsworn gain Arcane Strike as a bonus feat.
Unfocused training: Oathsworn levels do not count as Fighter levels when determining eligibility for feats.
Oathbound: The oathsworn at some point made a pact with otherwordly forces and were granted access to special arcane talents. Oathsworn select a Sorceror Bloodline and advance in that bloodline using their Oathsworn levels. This ability replaces Bonus feats and Weapon Training.
Spells: Oathsworn advance as Sorcerors however they do not gain any spells known. They may only cast bloodline spells.
Arcane Armor Training: At 3rd level an Oathsworn ignores the first 10% of Arcane Armor spell failure. This value increases by another 10% every four levels beyond 3rd level to a max of 50% at level 19. Note: this does not replace normal Armor Training.
It gives more flavor, and definitely has a limited magical scope.
However I do believe 5th level spells spread from level 1-20 could be pulled off with the right restricted spell list and class abilities.
That would be a completely new spellcasting progression in addition to the 4 we have already.
** spoiler omitted **
Why not just go with the (already exiting) 6 level Bard type progression?
That probably could be done, but it would be another stretch to what we already have. However other spells added in would have to be labeled properly.
Except you don't just have D.Door.
At 17th level you could have all of the following:
Overland flight 1/day
Stoneskin 2/day
Haste 3/day
See Invisibility 4/day
That's not a bad list of abilities for the fighter. My blade trust feature saves me a metric ton of wealth since I can simply buy a +5 weapon and then throw on whatever enhancements I need at the moment. In fact it would probably be worth my while to pick up a rod of lordly might since I can take the basic weapons it provides and move them to what I need with blade trust. Having a back up weapon such as a bow that doesn't need as much enhancement since I can increase it as well is very nice too. *Note blade trust should be a free action to maintain once established much like bardic performance.
Because of my spell resistance and ability to reflect spells back at casters even at 15% means that when I'm the target of a spell about 2 times in twenty I can expect it to fail and whenever I make my save I can throw the spell right back in the casters face.
On top of this I don't need D.door -- after all I took the teleportation specialty school powers which means I can swift action teleport 35 feet at a time 3+ my Int mod times per day, and I can still teleport 450 feet a day as a (or many) standard actions.
Or instead I could take Foresight have a free d20 roll to fall back on most rounds, never be surprised, have a massive bonus to my initiative and use blade trust to put my secondary weapon on Dancing while then using my primary weapon to get twice the attacks without needing two weapon fighting... or perhaps I use two weapon fighting too and have that in addition to the dancing weapon, which isn't costing me a thing.
All this on top of still having full BAB (so I'm highly likely to hit still) greater weapon focus two critical abilities that go off when I hit.
My spell like abilities honestly last me more than I need and if they get dispelled can be put right back in place rather easily.
Instead I could have grabbed resist energy and the admixture school to help be sure that whatever I'm facing isn't going to harm me with specific elemental effects. Perhaps instead I want to have dispel magic to ensure that I have a chance to cancel out an incoming spell.
Or instead of a school specialty I took the hexes. I grabbed evil eye, flight, healing, and retribution saving myself my last five spell levels for other things, and granting me a small amount of healing to share with my friends (and self) as well as making sure that anyone that does hit me really doesn't like the consequences of doing so.
Maybe instead of that I grabbed the elemental bloodline -- now I got something of a surprise for people when I use my ray attack or my burst attack and I have all day flight thanks to the air bloodline. With one more level and robes of arcane heritage I will count as an elemental and be immune to sneak attack, critical hits and electricity damage.
Abyssal bloodline gives me +4 to my strength and if I use the robes I mentioned above it is instead a +6 inherent bonus to my strength -- this alone is well worth over 256k, and I also get flaming claws and resistances.
Infernal bloodline means that with a mere touch I can shaken my enemies, and again I get wonderful resistances, an ability to call down hellfire and wings.
Draconic bloodline again grants flight, and resistances, and a +4 bonus to natural armor, as well as a breath weapon.
Other nice bloodlines include Verdant, Deep Earth, or orc which has a ton of bonuses most fighters would kill for.
These abilities are in addition to the spell likes I have, and my regular fighter feats (which I haven't given up) and full BAB, heavy armor, and such. Granted I lost armor training -- which slows me down some -- but I don't have to invest as heavily in dex in order to gain the benefits of that class feature. Losing weapon training hurt more, but honestly I can still 1~2 round an enemy without it, and I've much more useful to my party since I don't have to rely on them to provide me with the abilities I need in order to close with my target and kill it.
I'm talking 1 ability. What are you talking about? I think I missed something.
I'm talking 1 ability. What are you talking about? I think I missed something.
Total package -- one ability doesn't exist by itself and has to be measured in conjunction with everything else that is gained.
I do agree -- the weapon training trade out in and of itself isn't superior to weapon training -- it shouldn't be either in my estimation since it grants powers that fighters simply don't get.
AND when held in conjunction with everything else the archetype gives it is enough. You're getting blade trust, spell like abilities, and either a specialization, hexes, a familiar or a bloodline.
Adding in all that together with full bab, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency (without failure chances) and d10 hit dice puts the archetype in a very strong position.
Yes it is a departure from the "I hit things hard in a different way" design of fighter archetypes that currently exists but I don't see that as a bad thing.
I'm talking 1 ability. What are you talking about? I think I missed something.Total package -- one ability doesn't exist by itself and has to be measured in conjunction with everything else that is gained.
I do agree -- the weapon training trade out in and of itself isn't superior to weapon training -- it shouldn't be either in my estimation since it grants powers that fighters simply don't get.
AND when held in conjunction with everything else the archetype gives it is enough. You're getting blade trust, spell like abilities, and either a specialization, hexes, a familiar or a bloodline.
Adding in all that together with full bab, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency (without failure chances) and d10 hit dice puts the archetype in a very strong position.
Yes it is a departure from the "I hit things hard in a different way" design of fighter archetypes that currently exists but I don't see that as a bad thing.
Well, going back through them, the most attractive abilities that you listed where the spell resistance and spell reflection, and both of those are quite limited. The spell resistance is kinda nice because good spell resistance can be difficult to get (it's overpriced as a magic item), but isn't that incredible. The spell reflection is limited by what kinds of spells are thrown at you (many spells you save against will be un-reflectable) and you specifically.
Blade Trust isn't very good, honestly. However, it's replacing Bravery which is also not very good. The main reason it's not very good is it's basically a more limited version of greater magic weapon, and as defined it doesn't stack with a weapon's normal enhancement bonus, which by 20th level a +5 weapon is pocket change (seriously you can have several without a problem), and the same effect can be replicated with a 1/day casting of Greater Magic Weapon which lasts all day, whereas Blade Trust lasts a maximum of about 30 rounds (probably less).
If you spun it so it stacked with a weapon's actual enhancement, it would arguably be overpowered (+10 weapon wha?), but since it'd be limited to 20-30 rounds per day, maybe not (it'd be more like a watered down smite of some sort).
However, a normal Fighter gets something about like this and it's quite amazing. It's called Weapon Training, and basically gives a stacking +5 to attack, damage, and CMB, and turns the Fighter into an engine of destruction. :P
So let's look at Weapon Training's replacement.
A handful of pitiful spells. Lame. I do mean a handful, and pitiful. I'm sorry, but a couple castings of see invisibility and such is weak-sauce compared to Weapon Training; especially since those abilities are already accessible to anyone of the appropriate level.
That's functionally equivalent to ripping out a wizard's spell progression and giving them bonus fighter feats. You're taking an ability that's actually strong and/or useful and replacing it with something that is meaningless for that level.
As mentioned before, Familiar and/or Spell School benefits are fairly lame without the spellcasting to back it up, so your only real option is either the Divination school ('cause it's ability is arguably insane), and sorcerer bloodlines (which are also somewhat wonky because you don't cast spells so bloodline spells are moot).
Using the example abyssal bloodline you mentioned, let's have a look at it.
Bloodline spells? Nope.
Bloodline Arcana? Nope.
Claws? Well spiked gauntlets are better most of the time, and bladed gauntlets would get you the slashing option. Becoming flaming later on is nice, but at that point it's kinda moot 'cause you'll want to be using a real weapon that isn't limited to 3 + dump stat times per day.
Resistances are nice, but come a bit late. You begin with 5 electrical resistance, and only electrical resistance, and a +2 bonus vs Poison; and you would apparently gain this at 5th level instead of 3rd as a sorcerer would. Not terrible, but not good either. Especially since resist energy gives energy resistance 10 to a chosen element (not just electricity) at this level.
Strength of the Abyss? This ability would be pretty good. Seems to be in error, since inherent bonuses are capped at +5, and this isn't called out as some sort of exception. Even still, it's basically a Tome of Strength, but the same can be achieved for you by the party's wizard around level 13 or so. Even if you allow it to be a +6 inherent (inherent modifiers, again are called out as being capped at +5), you're basically receiving a net +1 strength modifier by 20th level over current end-game expectations.
Added Summonings? Nope.
Demonic Might? Nope. This ability is nice but replicable with cheapish magic items, and you don't even get it.
So you gave up Armor Mastery for some fairly useless claws, a free Tome of Strength, and +5 Electrical resistance, gave up weapon training for a pitiful spell selection, gave up bravery for poor-man's greater magic weapon, lost a huge amount in damage output, defensive capabilities, and gained a fair spell resistance and spell turning; while losing mobility in armor, lowering your AC, and lowering your damage output considerably.
Yeah...this class might be good in a no-magic game; but classes are balanced on the assumption that you don't have access to equipment; and if you don't have access to equipment, the wizard is god.
EDIT: In short, there's no reason to play it. Fighters are better martially and also have all these options in a standard game. Hybrid casters would be more versatile and nearly as good at fighting. Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight would be better at virtually everything, and even Fighter/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight would likely be pretty good comparatively (I prefer Fighter/Wizard though, since Int synergizes better).
Heck, I'd take a Bard. >.>
hey whoever was talkin about a low bab non caster they already have one of those...
hey whoever was talkin about a low bab non caster they already have one of those...
** spoiler omitted **
I think people where thinking of something that actually gets abilities to compensate for the lack of fighting ability. I had two players who devised a torchbearer base class that had low BAB and lots of funny pack-mule related abilities.
IMO spell slots should be viewed as changeable 1/day class features at the level they are gained. Totally changes how one looks class "abilities".
Also....
:3
blade trust
My bad I didn't explain it well -- it is supposed to work like divine bond and have other abilities that can be grabbed with it -- not just daily greater magic weapon -- I didn't put all the text down because I thought I had conveyed the idea well -- my bad.
weapon training is useless if you can't find or reach the target.
Also all those bloodline abilities are stuff you won't have.
You are a fighter -- you have no regular use of energy resistance. No regular use of delay poison. No means of seeing the invisible, of flight -- of anything without a mage doing it for you, or spending a lot of money on a regular basis.
The abyssal might also makes later items cheaper -- and isn't an enhancement bonus -- it is an inherent bonus -- which is much more expensive -- and it isn't capped as normal inherent modifiers are since it's a specific exclusion.
Armor mastery in and of itself is fairly useless as well. Basically duplicated in two items -- mithral armor and boots of striding and springing. It requires extra investment that the bloodline -- or school specialty or hexes don't necessarily need (some points you glossed over).
Simply put I am not impressed with armor training. It's useless in and of itself beyond increasing movement speed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Abraham,
I'm interested in what you're designing, but for some reason (likely the vicodin) I can't follow the design completely. Any change you can work it up in one spoilered post all together?
To the thread in general... anyone look at Monte's book of Iron Might? They have some 'stabacadabara' type feats for a warrior that might be worth modifying/stealing.
it was a joke >.>
Contributor
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Total stab in the dark, but has anyone looked at something like:
All Simple and Martial weapons
Full BAB
Sorcerer spells known
Wizard Spells per day
And nothing else? No ignoring armor. No bonus feats. No Bloodlines, familiars, school specialization, weapon/armor training? Just the barebones class, probably d10 hit die and 2+INT skill points per level?
It's not interesting, but I don't think it's broken...
Why not a class based on Richard Rahl, Elric, Rand al'Thor, etc?
Magus is based on Elric. Well, with normal, Pathfinder-type magic instead of the weird stuff that went on in Elric.
Sure, the magus might not have the best possible AP. But he's still a quite capable warrior.
What I don't like about Magus is the thing I don't like about Monk. Give him a medium base attack, then let him boost that (flurry/arcana) situationally and say "well he might as WELL have full BAB, stop whining". Just suck it up and give it full BAB.
Sure. At the cost of his magic. And then it's no longer the magus class. It's the fighter.
Magic in Pathfinder is limited and situational. It doesn't work all day.
So the magus gets magical abilities, limited and situational ones, to let him become a better warrior. Which not only fits the game system but also concept itself (a mage/warrior mix that is greater than the sum of its parts)
Personally I think the spell list is wonky. There's too much utility and general wizard stuff and not enough stabbination.
Lots of the utility and general wizard stuff is really helpful for someone who uses magic while also hacking at enemies right in front of him.
Also, I'd prefer a spontaneous caster with more slots and fewer spells.
We had so many of those recently. The mix between fighter and wizard makes most sense.
Plus, they can use their arcane pool to get more magic.
I'm just saying that, considering the breadth of fantasy fiction and versions of this archetype the class is drawing from, it will NEVER please everyone 100%. I am merely one of the people it doesn't please 100%.
Goes without saying.
Abraham,
I'm interested in what you're designing, but for some reason (likely the vicodin) I can't follow the design completely. Any change you can work it up in one spoilered post all together?
To the thread in general... anyone look at Monte's book of Iron Might? They have some 'stabacadabara' type feats for a warrior that might be worth modifying/stealing.
Glad to -- I'm currently working on two things -- a 'stabracadabara' fighter archetype (spoiler) and the low BAB community hero base class (no spoiler yet as I don't like tipping my cards until I have a full feel for what I'm presenting).
So -- Stabracadabara fighter archetype:
Blade Trust -- At 2nd level as a swift action the fighter may enhance his weapon. This takes the form of a +1 enhancement bonus +1 for every four levels past level 2. This bonus stacks with any bonus already on the weapon up to +5. Instead this bonus may be used to by other enhancements from the following list: defending, allying, dancing, keen, flaming, frost, corrosive, shocking, flame burst, frost burst, shocking burst, speed, bane, merciful, throwing, vicious, returning, wounding or vorpal. The fighter may use this a number of rounds per day equal to his fighter level + his Intelligence modifier. Once activated he may choose to keep it going as a free action each round. The bonuses may be decide each time the ability is used however the weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus before any other abilities may be added. This ability replaces bravery.
Magical Training -- At 3rd level the fighter may choose a branch of magic to learn extra abilities from. He may either choose a wizard school of specialty, a sorcerer bloodline, or a witch hex to learn. For the purposes of these abilities his effective level is equal to his fighter level -2. If he chooses the witch hex he may choose another hex every four levels after 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Magical Ability -- starting at 5th level the fighter gains a number of spell like abilities. He gains a number of spell levels to use to gain these abilities equal to his fighter level. He may use these spell levels to gain any number of abilities he wants so long as the total combined spell level of the abilities doesn't exceed his fighter level. The highest spell level he can access is equal to 1/3 his fighter level +1 (so when he first gains this ability he can use it to gain 2nd level spells). Every level he may decide to either replace old abilities or to simply gain new ones. Each spell like ability can be used a number of times per day equal to his fighter level / the spell level of the ability. This ability replaces weapon training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Magical Resistance -- At level 19 the fighter gains spell resistance equal to his fighter level +5 +his Con modifier. He may choose as a free action each round if he wants his spell resistance active or not for that round. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Magical Parry -- At level 20 if a spell fails to penetrate the fighter's spell resistance or he successfully saves against the spell he may as an immediate action choose to reflect the spell back at the caster as if he was using spell turning. If the spell is one that normally can not be turned then this ability is wasted to no effect on that spell. This ability replaces weapon mastery.
blade trustMy bad I didn't explain it well -- it is supposed to work like divine bond and have other abilities that can be grabbed with it -- not just daily greater magic weapon -- I didn't put all the text down because I thought I had conveyed the idea well -- my bad.
Cool, that would be better.
weapon training is useless if you can't find or reach the target.
If you can't find or reach the target, then you've already got problems. However, generally there are counters (many of them cheap, relatively) to most obstacles like this. Believe me, if you can't find or reach your target, but 1/day Dimension Door will fix your problem, your problem is not a lack of Dimension Door.
Also all those bloodline abilities are stuff you won't have.
You are a fighter -- you have no regular use of energy resistance. No regular use of delay poison. No means of seeing the invisible, of flight -- of anything without a mage doing it for you, or spending a lot of money on a regular basis.
The abyssal might also makes later items cheaper -- and isn't an enhancement bonus -- it is an inherent bonus -- which is much more expensive -- and it isn't capped as normal inherent modifiers are since it's a specific exclusion.
It seems like the crux of the argument is a basis of money. The problem is, with the exception of "have a free tome of strength", it's not very impressive. It really isn't. 5 points of electrical resistance? That's not even as good as resist energy base caster level. Hell, resist energy scales up to resist 30, and you can choose your resistance.
Meanwhile, you can add resistance 10 to any element you want with a flat modifier to your armor, or with a shield. Or with an x/day item of resist energy(CL 3). Meanwhile, unless you're actively getting hit with electricity, then it means nothing to you. That means that all the orcs, ogres, manticors, chimeras (except maybe blue headed chimeras), gray renders, gricks, vampires, fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, antipaladins, warriors, experts, clerics, most demons, virtually all undead, most magical beasts, most incorporeal creatures, most this and most that, and so forth are going to pretty much ignore your minor resistance.
Armor mastery in and of itself is fairly useless as well. Basically duplicated in two items -- mithral armor and boots of striding and springing. It requires extra investment that the bloodline -- or school specialty or hexes don't necessarily need (some points you glossed over).
Simply put I am not impressed with armor training. It's useless in and of itself beyond increasing movement speed.
Far from it. The thing that makes armor training ideal is the fact it stacks with all that junk. Fighters can get some of the highest ACs in the game, and that comes from being able to stack fairly large Dexterity modifiers (after magic items) while in heavy mithral armor. This is pretty huge. At 4th level, a Fighter with a +2 Dexterity modifier wearing full plate has +1 AC over someone who isn't a fighter. You can expect to get at least +3 to +5 more Dexterity modifier over the course of your career without ever investing ability increases from levels into your Dexterity modifier.
A Fighter with mithral full-plate and armor training has a maximum Dexterity allotment of +8. Beginning with a 15 in Dexterity, +6 magic item, and a +5 inherent, and you end up with a +8 Dexterity modifier. So if you're wearing basic protective items (+5 armor w/kilt, +5 deflection, +5 natural) you have (base 10 + armor 15 + 5 deflection + 5 natural + 8 Dex) 43 AC before factoring a shield (up to 52), or special modifiers such as dodge, luck, or insight bonuses, or effects like Combat Expertise (you can hit AC 60+).
In short, it provides up to a +20% increase in avoidance potential.
Meanwhile, you will be doing this with no check penalty and no movement penalty, which means you benefit more from your skills, can tumble while in full-plate*, and you are more mobile with magic, as having something like fly, overland flight, or similar effects are still slowed by armor movement penalties.
And yes, Fighters can Tumble. If you doubt me, then turn your gaze to the rules for cross-classing skills, and the rules for tumbling, and you'll find that Fighters and only Fighters can tumble around in full-plate without suffering any penalties, reach a +28 tumble modifier without class skills, an could easily sport a +38 if they have a +10 Tumble item, or even +44 with the investment of 1 feat (skill focus).
Now since you'll want to be wearing armor anyway (for protection and also as a source of buffs and wards), this ability is actually pretty snazzy. Since you're going to be wearing armor anyway, we call this synergy. With armor mastery, you gain 5/- points of physical damage resistance, which is pretty minor but saves you a fair amount of HP over the coarse of a fight/day.
You seem to be approaching this from the idea that the character is naked, but that's now how the game is expected to be played. You are expected to have access to a certain amount and quality of equipment, and that's what classes are based upon. You are effectively making Fighter Mc3.5-Ninja.
I think you're under-estimating the value of these abilities, and over-estimating the value of a few x/day spells, which are easily replicable with cheap magic items.
I disagree of course -- however take a look over that last post -- it's a bit different and probably a bit more to your tastes -- I'm pretty sure that is where I would leave it too. It requires a bit more math ability than some other archetypes but you know, archetypes are for advanced players -- if they can't hack the math they probably shouldn't use the Archetype.
Over all I think you under estimate the power of a few spell like abilities on a fighter chasis -- especially well chosen spell like abilities. Yes the fighter *can* have one of the highest AC totals in the game (certainly the easiest one to get those totals) but then I would point out that with the dragon bloodline you lose 4 points of Dex to AC and moving easier in heavy armor, and gain 4 points of natural armor, resistances, flight, back up weapons (which you can freely empower with blade trust), a "meh" breath weapon too. Depending on purchases (robes again) possibly even blindsense and immunities.
I would point out you are sticking to only 1 possible bloodline choice too -- The abyssal offers the cheapest and easiest means of getting those inherent bonuses and other bonuses too -- yes at something of a lack for other abilities -- but not completely at a lack.
If those don't tickle your pickle you can go for a specialty school, or hexes.
Total stab in the dark, but has anyone looked at something like:
All Simple and Martial weapons
Full BAB
Sorcerer spells known
Wizard Spells per dayAnd nothing else? No ignoring armor. No bonus feats. No Bloodlines, familiars, school specialization, weapon/armor training? Just the barebones class, probably d10 hit die and 2+INT skill points per level?
It's not interesting, but I don't think it's broken...
No armor at all?
So d10 HD (since bull bab) and 2 + int/level.
Int or Cha casting with Sorc known but spells/day as wizard (non specialized)from wizard/sor spell list. All simple/martial weapons.
I think it need a thematic feature to be a class (that fits name). Name Bargus: class feature, Barrier, add 1/3 class level to AC as shield bonus, active at all times (when not helpless).
While it will start lower than Shield spell, once you have 12 levels, you only need Shield spell from magic missile protection.
Give you a reason not to multi-class/Prc.
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A fighting class with arcane powers that DIDN'T cast spells would be a pretty cool concept.My god, do I wish Paizo had less of a massive boner for spellcasting classes. Sometimes, I just want to play an interesting class but NOT have to keep track of an ever-growing spell list.
Holy 6 year thread Batman, Hate9 is a necromancer!
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Myesssss... This unnecessary thread revival fuels my power!
Rash of necromancy this week. I think it's subtly the universe saying I got older, what with my birthday earlier. Now, all these old threads are rising and need put down again!
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I try to look on the bright side. A bunch of necromancy means a bunch of new players/posters. It's good to see the community grow.
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Rash of necromancy this week. I think it's subtly the universe saying I got older, what with my birthday earlier. Now, all these old threads are rising and need put down again!
I noticed! I think there must be a rash of newcomers to the board.
Perhaps due to Starfinder enthusiasm?
This particular act of necromancy was the poster's first post.
Anyway: Hello, and welcome to the Paizo boards, Hate9!
It might be a good idea to check the date of the last post before you make a comment in a thread. The state of the game is quite different now than it was in 2011.
Have fun!
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Different boards have different culture too. Some boards are actually the opposite and get upset if you start a thread for something that's already been asked in another thread.
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Well, since this thread has been awakened ...
Folks looking for a full BAB class that casts arcane spells might check out the Battle Scion class!
Which happens to be in the revised and expanded New Paths Compendium: Expanded and Revised Hardcover Edition, the Kickstarter for which ends tomorrow :)
