Hey All!(Well look at that! Muh 2nd post! Still...this is a bit intimidating!)
Anywho, I've read the various sections of the Core RuleBook, Designing Encounters (pp 397 – 399), Beyond 20th Level (pp 406-407), the GameMastery Guide, Creating Adventures (pp 36-39), Encounter Archetypes (176-177), The Inner Sea World Guide (Chapter 4, pg 253, 2nd Col., last paragraph:Power Levels) and various post especially a few from Mr. James Jacobs and Mr. Joshua J. Frost...
Mr. Jacobs posted (somewhere here on said messageboards) that they would like to support 20+ level gaming material or "it'll turn into a ghetto" and that they are not ready to "take the plunge into the deep end of the high-level pool yet."
Mr. Frost posted in the Pathfinder Society:Open Call scenario submission section: "Encounter = puzzle, RP, investigation, trap, AND combat.”
So, once you've refreshed your memory with said references...and if it pleases the court...I'd like to posit these questions to the community:
a) What does "epic" (16+ level) gameplay really mean???
b) What should be added/omitted in these high level scenarios/campaigns??? (This may be the question of questions here! ;p)
c) If I recall correctly even Mr. Jacobs mentions if "epic" gameplay [could/should] be a different campaign setting..sooo..Should high level adventures be a different setting/situation/circumstance???
REFERENCE: The Inner Sea Guide mentions (pg 253) that "legendary" refers to 16+ level characters
If using Mr. Frost's criteria:
Puzzles, investigation and traps: These are solved depending on the group's Real World(RW) problem solving skills. If stumped the DM/GM can give them a "hint" via their character's INT/WIS attributes;
Combat: Usually the "boss fight" of a scenario/campaign is suppose to be "epic" at least based on the Average Party Level(APL) game mechanics;
Role Playing VS Roll Playing (SIGH) Unfortuantely too many folks don't like the "pretending bits" and just let their dice rolls do all the talking;
d) If we use this "Encounter Criteria" as the standard for creating scenarios/campaigns then is the term "epic" moot? By this I'm asking...because of CR are not all the encounters (boss fights) of our beloved PF characters "epic"? Ergo see question a)
e) Should this equation: Encounter = puzzle, RP, investigation, trap, and combat be changed/evolved for "epic" gameplay???
FRAME OF REFERENCE
We have a plethora of literature and shows on the tele that invoke images of "epicness". For those of you who don't watch Naruto (mods please forgive me if trespass here) he starts as a snot-nosed, pain in the tukus (DOH! Is this word legal???), takes several "test" to show his worth, goes into a competition with competitors from other villages (as well as his own), goes on missions that are "higher level" for his and his team's "rating", he leaves his village with a mentor to learn new skills, saves the village from the BBEGs and still there's more.
What I'm trying to convey about the show is that the character, Naruto, goes through "encounters" that seem epic at the time but his next encounter tops that of the last one! I'm always guessing how the creators can "one up" the next situation/tangent!
So, in paraphrasing question a) is "epic" a perception? The difficulty, success and/or failure of level advancement or is it really just elements of story telling? The journey (a day in the life) of our Pathfinder characters and not the destination (the outcome of the journey)????
THE TRUE PURPOSE
Thusly, I'm asking "the community" to come together, debate the questions then arrive to constructive suggestions (as opposed to constructive criticism) in order to inspire Mr. Jacobs and friends so that they can create and develop "epic level" material (Adventure Paths, Modules, Player Companion etc) for our gaming pleasure.
(Time and current work load permitting, of course, Mr. Jacobs & friends ;p)
At the very least we can inspire each other with this thread in regards to creating "epic" gameplay scenarios/campaigns!
REMINDER
After hours and hours of reading the community's numerous and informative post I know how...shall I say..."passionate" or "enthusiastic" posters can be! So I'm reminding the community of Paizo's messageboard policies in other words(IOW) standard caveat applies!
Hmmm...I thought i saw a spell check button here somewhere...
Have at it folks,
Rom
One major problem is that the word "epic" is a common English word used in a number of connotations, and which Wizards of the Coast further confused by adding "character levels 21+" as a definition. They also added the concept of "epic" as a type of magic item (look up DR under the universal monster rules, for example), and that confuses it even further.
Thus on the boards, you'll find that many people consider any high level gameplay "epic", while other folks specifically restrict "epic" gameplay to mean levels 21 or higher.
Greatly amusing when the two try to talk to each other.
I've never been a fan of too-high level play myself, so I'm the type to qualify level 20+ as "Godly" rather than "Epic".
For me, epicness in game terms can be defined by daring actions, vanquish challenges not of your league, offer your life to protect someone else, or simply being a rememberable character in the game world.(Be it because he is the founder of an important faction, a deity's or powerful patron's chosen one, the liberator of a country or settlement, whatever titles you can think of).
Epic play includes tougher than normal combats, but in my mind, epicness comes from courage, wits and charisma, not from simple brawl.
Having a bard to sing your successes help. Really. Especially if they boost it a little.
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I've always been a fan of high level play ,but like many found the 3e Epic handbook to be quite boring...powerful stuff ,yes ,but boring. A good friend and I have always been looking for a way to make high level play exciting. I have run high level games and usually have ended up giving character special " epic" boons granted each level. I never defined them ,but worked on them with the players. This has worked well for me ,but obviously is not a solution to a Pathfinder Epic Book/Adventure Path or what have you.
I would like for Epic play to allow for character advancement beyond the standard 1-15 ( in most adventure paths) and would like for it to use some ( but not necessarily) all of the rules. I have always thought a re-boot of characters would be a neat way to show their "epicness". By this, I think the rules of the game would change a bit and while they could do all the things they could do before, I believe that epic characters would be wratched up a notch. How this would work I am still not sure ,but perhaps something akin to the characters gear being "absorbed" into them causing the abilities gained by items to be a permanent part of their character.
Yes, I do realize this would be a serious power up as their ACs, saves, and other stats would now be at a new very high base level and this would allow them to 'adventure' to gain even more power ( and stuff).
However this begs the question : " if epic play is just "adventuring" as normal ,but with more powerful foes and toys to find, then why not just use the old 3e Epic book?"
This I do not want....I want Epic play to feel different, play different, be different. I will need to stew on this some more.
Great post ROM001 and good food for thought....
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Epic play generally refers to a specific level, usually higher levels (between 17-20 if those are the highest in the system, or 21+ for others). Yes, all games SHOULD, theoretically, be "epic" in that they evoke some grand sense of awesomeness for the players, but usually the developers are referring to using higher levels monsters, traps, etc. While this may seem like a relatively simple task, at least as easy as lower levels, you have to consider the idea of characters consistently having the ability to teleport, fly, and otherwise find a myriad of ways around a single problem. This can become a tedious and tiresome endeavor simply due to the abilities of the players.
Additionally, while lower levels challenges may seem "epic" by comparison, remember that, no matter how epic they may FEEL, you still aren't slaying shoggoths and finding the most powerful artifacts in existence.
In my games the avatars of the gods are CR 25. There are maybe no more Solars, Balors and Pit fiends in existence than you can count on your fingers.
Epic is definitely a matter of perception. You can make players feel like they are dealing with world-shaking powers at level 5 if you're really determined.
I think if you ask a dozen people what they want from "epic play" you'll get a dozen different answers. Hell, the answer I'd have given would have been different before I started running a game that went well beyond 21st level.
For that reason, I suspect that when we do see rules for above 20th level, they'll be very focused on "above level 20 play in as seen in Golarion," which will be a lot easier to quantify than "above level 20 play that pleases as many people as possible."
Just think about what the answers to these questions might be in a game that runs above level 20, and you'll see what I mean:
- What is the maximum level player characters should reach?
- What should the CR be for demon lords/demigods/gods?
- Can PCs become gods? Can they kill gods? Should the gods be statted?
- How should absolute effects be dealt with (e.g. freedom of movement, mind blank, various kinds of immunity (poison/disease/etc.) in the face of effects with a level greater than 20?
- What kind of plots should the system support?
- What is the interaction between artifacts and effects with a level greater than 21?
- How should the disparity between good/bad saves and wizard/cleric/fighter BAB advancement be dealt with at levels significantly above 20?
- How does level advancement work above level 20? Can you be a 30th level fighter? Can you be a 20th-level mystic theurge?
- What are reasonable high-CR encounters? How do you build them? How about treasure?
This is just the tip of the iceberg, and yet varying the answers of just a few of those questions results in completely different gameplay and rule requirements - in once case someone might desire a system that allows the players to become gods and fight (and kill) the gods, while someone else might desire a system where the gods are always beyond mortal ken.
A final note: that more than any other, a high-level game requires cooperation between the players and GM. If the GM wants to run one kind of high-level game and the players want to play another, it will be a Macro-Colossal failure, as the GM will have virtually no way of railroading the players into the game the GM forsees.
I think a strong defined plot is a requirement for successful high-level play. The characters are too powerful for it to be the kind of open-ended player-driven campaign that succeeds quite well at lower levels.
In my preferred campaign, the gods are always above and beyond mortals, with rare instances of advancement to godhood, typically by divine action, but I do support the concept of a godtrap as portrayed in Greyhawk.
However, I have no intended upper bounds on character level - I have a specific story arc in mind, and whatever level they get to is where they'll end up. Right now the party ranges in level from 48 to 63.
For this reason, I never intend to stat out any of the gods - but I do stat out avatars/aspects of greater powers, which do have divine rank (as per the 3.5 SRD) and can be killed, though it's difficult. They've only run into those types of things twice in 5 years.
I run a very very low magic campaign; I've found that this helps keep things sane. I don't like changing the rules, thus certain abilities and effects I view as a failure at high level: freedom of movement, class or hero's feast-based immunity to poison or disease, etc. If I were to do it again I'd rule from day one that such things simply give a +20 on saves vs. effective levels above 21 (or something along those lines - perhaps tied to level of the protection as well).
I like the ELH rules for above 20 BAB and saves; I think it keeps the variation between classes without creating the crazy situation where half the party needs a 1 to fail while the other half needs a 20 to succeed. I don't like the existing ELH epic magic system (with the exception of Forgotten Realms mythals) and simply use standard spells with a lot of metamagic.
Finally, as for encounters ... they are work, primarily because I create encounters based on plot, not as foils for the party. Thus, virtually no encounter is prepared for a high-level party - but that's okay, as I prefer a story-driven campaign anyways. And when they do run into someone who is prepared for them or is challenging, it's memorable rather than "just another CR55 encounter."
Anyways, that's my two cents. I try to run a high-level game just like a low-level game, just writ large.
Hey All,
This is a good start!
Thanks all for the comments. I've noted them down which helped for the CONCLUSION section.
@gbonehead - great stuff. You've mentioned specific circumstances that others in "the community" have and/or most likely will have asked. So let's take a look and call them:
(as per Inner Sea World Guide RE: Power Levels pg 253)
What is the maximum level player characters should reach?
AAAHA! A simple question with a very complex answer, however let's simpilfy this answer: Currently Paizo have set their tables to max @ 20th level, but does mention in their Core RuleBook a few changes beyond 20th.
GIVEN #1: Maximum character level for PCs AND NPCs = 20th; PrC = as per Rules as Written (RAW)
Superman acutually saved a cat stranded up in a tree! So don't assume that a Level 20 character "won't deal with the small stuff"!
What should the CR be for demon lords/demigods/gods?
Can PCs become gods?
Can they kill gods?
Should the gods be statted?
I think these questions are related thus I put them together.
CR for DLords, demigods and gods: Well there are "templates" that can increase a CR up to +7(CR27). Thus:
GIVEN#2: Creatures beyond CR20 will be adjusted via Paizo's "advance templates" which are also available through 3rd Party Products. Hey, they are already out there...why not use them!
One more thing...if you go decide to kill a god...do you really think it can be done with only a party of four to six? Seeee?!?!? An "epic" adventure by "legendary" characters!
Can PCs become gods? Yes. There are at least three precedents according to Paizo's background:
1) The Test of the Starstone (Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, Norgorber)
2) Self-Enlightenment (Irori)
3) Through deception (Razmir of Razmiran: Inner Sea World Guide pp. 158-161)
Can they (PCs) kill gods? Should the gods be statted? It is not known why/how Aroden died and it is unclear if someone killed him. Some have been killed by other such powerful entities and/or by their armies and/or through careful manipulation of a deity's followers causing said deity to be neglected. However the question remains...
GIVEN#3: Powerful deific beings SHOULD NOT be killed UNLESS the DM/GM is ready to deal with the consequences of such a major catastrophe. Stats for deific beings should be created IF DMs/GMs deem that they can be killed.
Do you know how many clerics (especially PC's clerics!) would lose their powers if this should happen!?!?!? Ustalav and Lastwall would be in serious trouble if Iomedae were to be "assassinated"! DMs and/or Paizo would have SOOOOOO much to write up, but then would that not be an "epic" adventure in and of itself?!?!?!?!
How should absolute effects be dealt with (e.g. freedom of movement, mind blank, various kinds of immunity (poison/disease/etc.) in the face of effects with a level greater than 20?
How should the disparity between good/bad saves and wizard/cleric/fighter BAB advancement be dealt with at levels significantly above 20?
How does level advancement work above level 20?
Can you be a 30th level fighter? Can you be a 20th-level mystic theurge?
What are reasonable high-CR encounters? How do you build them? How about treasure?
Again, I feel these questions are related.
Fisrt off, don't change a thing with current spells, unless they are broken and Paizo and others will make the necessary corrections. In the spirit of "Keep It Simple, Silly" adding more powerful spells, abilities etc. may throw off the current mechanics. Just use the exsisting Paizo OGL material.
Remember Superman's good deed?
RE: saves and BAB - Again no need to change them. Multiclassing is an option. At the same time when going up against "epic" opponents...yeah they are that hard to kill and you just have to keep throwing spells, shooting arrows, or hacking like a lumber jack hoping you'll cause damage and make a kill. Remember I've made it a given that we can kill gods, but I never said it would be easy! ;p
RE: Level cap see GIVEN#1
RE: Reasonable high-CR...well so far the machanics have worked for the majority of palyers...yes??? As for how to build them see GIVEN#2
RE: Treasure...Again DMs/GMs discreation. Which does beg some questions:
How much "treasue" does a god need?
What would a goddess spend with a billion platinum? (With DM fiat the goddess could make an island, a planet or even a floating kingdom much less by one...in thoery) ;p
Are the gods needs relevant to wealth?
What kind of plots should the system support?
Ooooooh! Good one! Because of the scarcity of "legendary" characters I actually think that the plots are major events (not necessarily killing gods). The actions of the "legendary" party can theoretically topple and/or cause drastic changes to a town, city, government, nation(s); Alter the landscape i.e. what would happen if the pary actaully closed the Worldwound?!?!?!? (OK that may be a bit much but I think you "git muh drift") ;p
GIVEN#4: The party MAY affect major background campaign setting.
So with this GIVEN Paizo has an opportunity for the players, especially through Pathfinder Society Organized play, to alter Golarion via Adventure Paths, Modules and tales as well as create more material for Pathfinder Companion, Campagin Setting!
Mr. Jacobs was asked IIRC a question regarding the Test of the Starstone. At this point in time he and the rest of the development team have not yet looked at the situation thoroughly simply because of this: what would happen if a character attained Godhood?!?!?!
What is the interaction between artifacts and effects with a level greater than 21?
I've already made it a GIVEN to set a level cap, so I'll address the interaction of artifacts.
Well, depends on the artifact. Galt's Final Blades were designed to make sure of one's "swift and painless death" AND to ensure no chance of resurrection (Inner Sea Guide pg 300).
I'm thinkning that there doesn't need to be a GIVEN regarding this for it looks like to be a case by case situation. If you're the DM what you say goes, BUT one must really think on the circumstances of the situation!
CONCLUSION
With the above suggested GIVEN rules I'm already alluding to some changes in gameplay.
LEVEL ADVANCEMENT
OR You already have the job...now go and Adventure Time!
A PC no longer has to climb the corporate ladder. A 20th level character's life is now about living a life. Be it through "harder" adventures, raising a family, livestock (horses or camels?) or crops. How about starting a business?
BUILDING IN THE WORLD
- What's that? You want to be a king where??? Do want to build an army OR do you want to ursup the current monarch?
- Huh? You want to have your own caravan? OK, camels, horses, slaves, Numerian Technolgy or go look for a magic lamp and rub it?
- Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? You want a castle? OK, new or used? There's an excellent chance that the "used" castle's occupants are still livning there (or unliving)!
Multiclassing is an option, but all that means is the PC is just adding to her character's skills, abilities etc. Not necessarily being more powerful...just more versatile, but then again isn't the composition of a party (four to six players) that determines versitility and adaptability?
OPPORTUNITIES
Solo Adventures (OR I don't need no stinkin party)
Hey! You are all that and a box of Cracker Jacks! How about a game with just you and the DM playing a Diablo style adventure!
Here Paizo and friends have the opportunity to create "Solo Legendary Adventures" via modules, solo adventure paths. Many video games are played this way anyhow, why not our Pen & Paper games as well?!?!?!
I still think that Pathfinder Society Organized play should stay the same...four to six plus a DM format. Because of the high levels I'm thinking that if Paizo should make "Legendary Adventures" it will be the PSO players who should/could change the current Campagin Setting fluff.
I.E. What if PSO's Legendary Andoran Factions actaully helped the nation of Isger break away from Cheliax?!?!?! Would the Cheliax faction attempt to foil this coupe? Will Taldor fuel the flames of war HOPING one side (or better yet BOTH sides) will lose? Rergardless, for a group of high level characters this IS an "epic" adventure.
WHEW! I didn't know that this was soooooooo long!
To the moderators 1,000 apologies...I wanted folks to see/read the train of thought especially after reading hours of post regarding "epic level". If I need to "break up" this thread I'll do so. (thank goodness for copy, paste & save!)
As for the rest of you, please remember the board's policies, constructive suggestions NOT constructive criticsm and that HOPEFULLY these insights and suggestions (which ALL of this really is)will inspire each other and Mr. Jacobs & friends to create "Legendary Adventures" and "Solo Legendary Adventures" for the community's enjoyment!
P.S. Mr. Jacobs, if you like the terms "Legendary Adventures" and "Solo Legendary Adventures" may I get a cut????
What? Why are you folks laughing? Is there something in muh teeth???
(SIGH) no spell check! <clicks the "Preview" button>
All right folks...HAVE AT IT!
Rom