Perhaps and that is the dealbreaker that makes this class a nonstarter for me, flatly unacceptable no matter what else you do to it. On the other hand it does chime with one of the classic meanings for the word warlock.... Oathbreaker.Being able to form a new pact each day is the entire foundation of the class.
That is also my biggest pause with introducing this class. But it is easy to remove that from the class, and when done I am going to be building one for my kingmaker game I run.
Perhaps and that is the dealbreaker that makes this class a nonstarter for me, flatly unacceptable no matter what else you do to it. On the other hand it does chime with one of the classic meanings for the word warlock.... Oathbreaker.Being able to form a new pact each day is the entire foundation of the class.
I don't understand the problem. Changing the pacts is functionally and fluffily no different than casting multiple planar binding spells. The pact doesn't have to be "I'll serve you for life and you can have my soul when I die;" it could be "I swear to serve your interests today if you lend me a fraction of your power." This isn't a cleric or paladin we're talking about here, after all. The sources of these pacts aren't necessarily bound by human(oid) conceptions of eternal loyalty and fealty; they may be quite happy to allow a mortal to wreak their favored type of havoc or mischief on the world for a short time. I personally like it; I had actually considered doing something similar with the 3.5 Warlock class, allowing them to change out invocations each day, but never got around to it and now we have Pathfinder :)
What is the spell list for the warlock you have created? If you have them listed I didn't see them.
What is the spell list for the warlock you have created? If you have them listed I didn't see them.
Summoner spell list is the begining point, I still have to look over it, and possibly do some tweaks....that's next on my list after getting all of the possible patrons on to charts by type.
On the other hand it does chime with one of the classic meanings for the word warlock.... Oathbreaker.
Nothing "classic" about that meaning, unless your young enough to consider late 1970's classic.
However the historic meaning of "spirit binder/spirit caller" does fit well, which is why I went that direction ;)
I'd rather focus on the Scottish folklore tradition, as I'm not interested in the modern wiccan interpretation.
Rough draft of spell list.....
Warlock Spells
0 level warlock spells: arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, read magic, resistance,
1st level warlock spells: alarm, cause fear, charm person, command, daze monster, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, identify, jump, mage armor, magic mouth, mount, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, shield, summon monster I, unseen servant, ventriloquism
2nd level warlock spells: alter self, augury, blurr, burning gaze, create pit, death knell, detect thought's, enthrall, eagles splendor, fox's cunning, glitterdust, hold person, misdirection, phantom steed, protection from arrows, resist energy, see invisibility, slow, spider climb, summon monster II, summon swarm, vomit swarm, wind wall.
3rd level warlock spells: arcane sight, black tentacles, charm monster, dimension door, dimensional anchor, dispel magic, displacement, fire shield, fly, heroism, invisibility (greater), locate creature, locate object, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, minor creation, nondetection, rage, seek thoughts, speak with dead, spiked pit, stoneskin, summon monster IV, tounges, wall of fire, vampiric touch
4th level warlock spells: baleful polymorph, contact other planes, dismissal, hold monster, insect plague, mage's faithful hound, magic jar, major creation, overland flight, planar binding, purified calling, sending, summon monster V, teleport, wall of stone.
5th level warlock spells: banishment, creeping doom, dispel magic (greater), dominate person, ethereal jaunt, heroism (greater), invisibility (mass), planar adaption, planar binding, plane shift, repulsion, sequester, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster VII, teleport (greater), true seeing, wall of iron.
6th level warlock spells: antipathy, binding, charm monster (mass), dimensional lock, discern location, dominate monster, incendiary cloud, maze, planar adaption (mass), planar binding (greater), protection from spells, summon monster IX, sympathy, teleportation circle.
I'm still horribly torn as to if the warlock should be......
A)Prepared caster.
B)Spontanious Caster.
Opinions ???
Spontaneous.
But I still to think of the 3.5 warlock, which could use any magic power it knew at will, but knowing a very limited number of magic powers.
But I don't picture them planning their day with 1 alarm and 2 charm persons, etc. I still picture them spontaneously casting, with their variety and versatility coming from the vestige they're bound to.
Spontaneous.
But I still to think of the 3.5 warlock, which could use any magic power it knew at will, but knowing a very limited number of magic powers.
But I don't picture them planning their day with 1 alarm and 2 charm persons, etc. I still picture them spontaneously casting, with their variety and versatility coming from the vestige they're bound to.
That's more or less how I feel....
One suggestion I have might be to have the Warlock select a favored patron at level 1 and then perhaps be able to select a 2nd favored patron at a later level. Or perhaps have the favored patron selection kick in at level 6 and again at level 13.
Give the warlock a special boost when performing a pact with their favored patron (perhaps access to a 2nd domain or maybe key the capstone ability off it - dunno, just some off-the-cuff ideas). You could also make it easier or quicker for a warlock to perform a pact with a favored patron.
So perhaps he starts the day with a pact that isn't favored, and finds himself in a pickle. He can Expel Patron and call up a pact with a favored patron quickly.
This could maintain the flexibility of the warlock but could at the same time encourage them to pursue one or two particular patrons over the others.
As far as the casting goes, my vote is for spontaneous.
One suggestion I have might be to have the Warlock select a favored patron at level 1 and then perhaps be able to select a 2nd favored patron at a later level. Or perhaps have the favored patron selection kick in at level 6 and again at level 13.
Give the warlock a special boost when performing a pact with their favored patron (perhaps access to a 2nd domain or maybe key the capstone ability off it - dunno, just some off-the-cuff ideas). You could also make it easier or quicker for a warlock to perform a pact with a favored patron.
So perhaps he starts the day with a pact that isn't favored, and finds himself in a pickle. He can Expel Patron and call up a pact with a favored patron quickly.
This could maintain the flexibility of the warlock but could at the same time encourage them to pursue one or two particular patrons over the others.
As far as the casting goes, my vote is for spontaneous.
Favored Patron sounds like a great idea for a feat or "warlock talent." Something optional, but probably highly recommended, like Natural Spell for a druid.
Or better yet, a built in class feature like a wizard's specialty school or sorcerer's bloodline.
One suggestion I have might be to have the Warlock select a favored patron at level 1 and then perhaps be able to select a 2nd favored patron at a later level. Or perhaps have the favored patron selection kick in at level 6 and again at level 13.
Give the warlock a special boost when performing a pact with their favored patron (perhaps access to a 2nd domain or maybe key the capstone ability off it - dunno, just some off-the-cuff ideas). You could also make it easier or quicker for a warlock to perform a pact with a favored patron.
So perhaps he starts the day with a pact that isn't favored, and finds himself in a pickle. He can Expel Patron and call up a pact with a favored patron quickly.
This could maintain the flexibility of the warlock but could at the same time encourage them to pursue one or two particular patrons over the others.
As far as the casting goes, my vote is for spontaneous.
I'm actually working on a "Favored Pact" feat....it currently reads...
Favored Pact Choose one specific category of outsiders (Archdevils, Demonlords, Eldest, etc) You establish a close, mystical affinity with those beings. Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to binding checks when forming a pact with beings of this category.
Having not gotten hands-on to Ultimate Magic, but seeing the descriptors thus far, I'd like to see the Warlock as a sort of midway-blend between Master Summoner, Synthesist, and what's been outlined so far.
Pacts for the at-will powers, expansions to the spell list, and a 'fusing' ability towards the higher end of things for when those powers need to be used directly.
Having not gotten hands-on to Ultimate Magic, but seeing the descriptors thus far, I'd like to see the Warlock as a sort of midway-blend between Master Summoner, Synthesist, and what's been outlined so far.
Pacts for the at-will powers, expansions to the spell list, and a 'fusing' ability towards the higher end of things for when those powers need to be used directly.
As I started hearing comments about the Synthesist, I was a little worried that it was going to render what I was doing redundant....but the more I hear, the more it sounds more like a fantasy version of an exo-skeleton.
It's going to be the first thing I check when they release it Wednesday.
Or better yet, a built in class feature like a wizard's specialty school or sorcerer's bloodline.
This is exactly what I had in mind as a baseline, just said better than I stated it.
Favored Pact Choose one specific category of outsiders (Archdevils, Demonlords, Eldest, etc) You establish a close, mystical affinity with those beings. Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to binding checks when forming a pact with beings of this category.
Have you considered getting bonus pact points rather than a bonus to the binding check?
Have you considered getting bonus pact points rather than a bonus to the binding check?
Actually I hadn't....but that's a worthy idea. I'll give it some thought.
Thanks mate
Or maybe you always get bonus pact points for high binding checks?
Like 1 per 10 of the check? So a 20 gives you 2, a 30 gives you 3, etc. etc.
Or maybe you always get bonus pact points for high binding checks?
Like 1 per 10 of the check? So a 20 gives you 2, a 30 gives you 3, etc. etc.
Hey, that's a slick idea. You could make it similar to a lot of the other scenarios where a progressively higher check nets an increasing bonus.
For every 5 points by which you beat the DC of the binding check, you gain an additional (+1, +2, +whatever) binding points for the duration of the binding.
I may be causing confusion with what I want in such a class, compared to the design intentions.
I picture the warlock, on a higher concept level, making for a good replacement/retread/revamp of the binder, with the idea being that the contracts and compacts made as much influencing the warlock's forms as their powers. At the same time I see them, as part of their deal-making power/focus, working with lesser beings that are still more powerful than them, but not outrageously so, said lesser beings in general being amicable or at least thematically aligned with the greater vestiges/undefined entities that are the main focus for the warlock in question. For example, a Warlock more interested in compacts with First World sorts may not gain a Jabberwock as a binded entity, but could take on Jabberwock traits while having some manner of moderately powerful fey being serving as their lesser pact-bond; a more Chaos-favoring Warlock might have a Protean lesser pact-bond, but a Protean Lord as their main bond, making for all manners of unstable serpentine qualities.
Easy comparisons might be made to certain Other Warlocks©, but I see the function more working like Summoners in FFXI, where they aren't creating their own personal buddy out of Eidolonstuff™ as much as summoning manifestations of a specific entity, even if it's one that isn't normally capable of multiple iterations of self-presence...and gaining powers from its superiors.
I may be causing confusion with what I want in such a class, compared to the design intentions.
I picture the warlock, on a higher concept level, making for a good replacement/retread/revamp of the binder, with the idea being that the contracts and compacts made as much influencing the warlock's forms as their powers. At the same time I see them, as part of their deal-making power/focus, working with lesser beings that are still more powerful than them, but not outrageously so, said lesser beings in general being amicable or at least thematically aligned with the greater vestiges/undefined entities that are the main focus for the warlock in question. For example, a Warlock more interested in compacts with First World sorts may not gain a Jabberwock as a binded entity, but could take on Jabberwock traits while having some manner of moderately powerful fey being serving as their lesser pact-bond; a more Chaos-favoring Warlock might have a Protean lesser pact-bond, but a Protean Lord as their main bond, making for all manners of unstable serpentine qualities.
Easy comparisons might be made to certain Other Warlocks©, but I see the function more working like Summoners in FFXI, where they aren't creating their own personal buddy out of Eidolonstuff™ as much as summoning manifestations of a specific entity, even if it's one that isn't normally capable of multiple iterations of self-presence...and gaining powers from its superiors.
I'm not certain our concepts are that different (from my reading).
When a Warlock forms a pact with a powerful un-god, he becomes a living conduit for that beings power.So for example, a warlock who favors "fey pacts" would form pacts with variouse Eldest....and gain a portion of their power, and a connection to "First world" that altered his form giving him abilities associated with that plane.
I'm not certain our concepts are that different (from my reading).
When a Warlock forms a pact with a powerful un-god, he becomes a living conduit for that beings power.So for example, a warlock who favors "fey pacts" would form pacts with variouse Eldest....and gain a portion of their power, and a connection to "First world" that altered his form giving him abilities associated with that plane.
The key distinction I was making, without explicitly referencing certain 'other warlocks', was that from a function perspective, they would be a 'pet class' like regular summoners, but the culminations would be less fusing with the things they contract, and more manifesting the powers of the pact bound. Fey pact sorts get their antlers on, and have their plethora of powers that are thematically appropriate; those who have gone more axiomatic might sprout cogwheels and show cabling flexing under the skin.
I want the class to scale up over time, with the option of having lesser pact-bound for pet purposes, who do not have all the same benefits of Eidolons, but due to the nature of the lesser pact-binds in question are still more powerful than your basic Summon Monster X results. At the higher end I would want the class relying less on the lesser pact-binds for physical support, and more the vast and inexplicable powers of their major pact-binds, so that they could bring the necessary destruction without having to be supported by something else.
I see that as more or less just "flavoring", which is why the pact boons work well.
You can easily define your pact at lower levels (when boon points are more limited, and domain abilities are low)as commimng from a "lesser" being.
I wanted to go the un-god approach because paizo has supplied us with such a wide range of cool beings that are not "gods"....but are still powerful enough to grant mortals eldritch abilities, which I don't see your average Nymph or demon being able to do.
I see that as more or less just "flavoring", which is why the pact boons work well.
You can easily define your pact at lower levels (when boon points are more limited, and domain abilities are low)as commimng from a "lesser" being.
I wanted to go the un-god approach because paizo has supplied us with such a wide range of cool beings that are not "gods"....but are still powerful enough to grant mortals eldritch abilities, which I don't see your average Nymph or demon being able to do.
So having lesser and greater pacts to reflect the progress in brokering deals, or all pacts being functionally equivalent with no nomenclature differentiation and merely level-equivalency requirement? To make use of your example, being able to have as pact-bonds, start with brownies as an example, move up to something more pixie or pech-ish, progress to a nymph as an option, perhaps capping out physical partner-needs with a blodeuwedd who, due to the powers of the pact-bond, could effectively advance to Queen status as part of the expenditure of points to advance.
Those beings that rule over the First World, of course, could grant truly frightening and amazing powers, but working one's self up to that point takes time and effort.
So having lesser and greater pacts to reflect the progress in brokering deals, or all pacts being functionally equivalent with no nomenclature differentiation and merely level-equivalency requirement? To make use of your example, being able to have as pact-bonds, start with brownies as an example, move up to something more pixie or pech-ish, progress to a nymph as an option, perhaps capping out physical partner-needs with a blodeuwedd who, due to the powers of the pact-bond, could effectively advance to Queen status as part of the expenditure of points to advance.Those beings that rule over the First World, of course, could grant truly frightening and amazing powers, but working one's self up to that point takes time and effort.
I wasn't looking to create a class that was making pacts with "lesser" entities. But then I'm not fond of the "pet class" idea ;)
I think what your looking for are seperate scaled "vestige" type pacts ???
I was deliberatly trying to avoid having to create a bunch of "individual pacts", which is why I have taken this approach.
Scaling of the pacts is accomplished through increase in Pact boon points available, and domain abilities available.
So having lesser and greater pacts to reflect the progress in brokering deals, or all pacts being functionally equivalent with no nomenclature differentiation and merely level-equivalency requirement? To make use of your example, being able to have as pact-bonds, start with brownies as an example, move up to something more pixie or pech-ish, progress to a nymph as an option, perhaps capping out physical partner-needs with a blodeuwedd who, due to the powers of the pact-bond, could effectively advance to Queen status as part of the expenditure of points to advance.Those beings that rule over the First World, of course, could grant truly frightening and amazing powers, but working one's self up to that point takes time and effort.
I wasn't looking to create a class that was making pacts with "lesser" entities. But then I'm not fond of the "pet class" idea ;)
I think what your looking for are seperate scaled "vestige" type pacts ???
I was deliberatly trying to avoid having to create a bunch of "individual pacts", which is why I have taken this approach.
Scaling of the pacts is accomplished through increase in Pact boon points available, and domain abilities available.
Which, in part, is where I see room for variation between different warlocks, as it were, but also where the question of such design philosophies, in my case being something of a different tack and simultaneous semi-amalgamation of other variant summoner traits building on the core pact framework, and possibly your vantage point of the pact being the complete framework without anything else, I'm ending up looking at what might be distinguished in some ways as the difference between, say, a summoner and a sorcerer from anyone else's perspective. I see in your desired direction what amounts to something more of a 'here's my base powers, expanded by whom I'm dealing with today/this hour, lets do this' that almost fits nicely into a witch variant with pact-boons being akin to the different hexes (which, I will note, is by no means a complaint!), while I'm thinking that the binding ties into both gaining powers from things too 'big' to summon, and entrenching one's self in the patron's hierarchy by gaining influence over its 'kin' and 'fellows', be they daemon, deva, or anything along the way.
As a pact-binder, I somewhat expect the whole binding of existing beings, rather than the 'build-a-buddy' approach taken by summoners, to come into play, even if it's part of the methodology rather than the outright end-goal. I could easily see it as something that some might pass over completely as being non-relevant to their goals...and something others might take as their full focus, content to work with comparative small fry while others look at a bigger picture and greater power though a single, deepening, more-expansive pact.
To date, I have 64 different "un-god" options regarding beings that pact's can be formed with (ranging from demonic, infernal, daemonic, fey, celestial, abberant).....so I'm not to concerned with variety ;)
I've also been going over new spell options from UM, and adjusting the spell list for the warlock to make it a little more "unique".....
If you have "Archytype" suggestions to further the options ? I'd be very interested in hearing them.
WOW....it's been almost a year since I worked on this idea......
I have done some revisions of both the "fluff" as well as the class abilities themselves. In part I wanted to borrow some of the possesion flavor from Council of theives #4, and also wanted to broden the kind of beings usable for forming pacts.
As usual, comments and suggestions apppreciated ;)
Trained as a conduit for otherworldly powers, a warlock becomes a living conduit for powerful beings, and in return, these beings fuel his eldritch might.
Each day, a warlock may form a pact with a patron. This patron is most often chosen from among the many “fiends” or other powerful extraplanar creatures—good or evil— who are often granting the warlock power for reasons of their own, and that the warlock may not fully understand.
Various forms of undead, inhabitants of the Firstworld, unknowable entities from the depths of space, and other even less fathomable beings, all might seek to form a pact with a mortal warlock.
Prerequisites: To qualify as a patron, a creature must have a Cha 18, any fey, extraplanar, outsider, or undead, with 9 or more Hit Dice.
Binding check: You form your pact with a patron by performing a brief ritual, and making a binding check (1d20 + ½ your warlock level + your Cha modifier). This process takes 1 minute, but you can choose to make a rushed binding check as a full round action at an additional -10 penalty.
The DC for the binding check is equal to 10+ 1/2 your patrons hit dice + their charisma modifier, and the DC for the binding check is increased by an additional +1 for each step of alignment (along both axis), that the warlocks alignment differs from his chosen patron. You must make this perilous pact alone; others cannot aid you in any way, however if the binding is performed in conjunction with a successful “magic circle” spell of the appropriate alignment, the additional alignment based increase to DC is mitigated.
Whether the binding check succeeds or fails, you gain the benefits of an Eidolon's evolution pool, as a summoner of your class level for 24 hours. The warlock must meet any requirements listed for an evolution (including base form requirements) as an eidolon of the appropriate level.
During the time your patron is bound to your soul by the pact, you cannot rid yourself of the patron.
They cannot be targeted or expelled by any means, nor can they be suppressed except by an anti-magic field or similar effect.
The warlock also bears a sign of their patrons presence, perhaps in the form of glowing eyes, an inhuman growl, a ghastly stench, or spontaneous bleeding. This manifestation is obvious to anyone looking at the host.
As long as the manifestation persists, the warlock suffers a –2 penalty on all Charisma-based checks when dealing with creatures opposed to their patrons goals, and a +2 circumstance bonus, to all charisma-based checks when dealing with creatures aligned with their patrons goals.
In addition, while pact bound, the warlock counts as both his original type and as his patrons type (Including sub-types, and alignment) for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the warlock .
Divination and abjuration effects treat the warlock as if it were the patron, providing information or barring the warlock accordingly. (Example: detect spells, to pass through a magic circle against X, or the effects of a forbiddance or similar magics ).
If your binding check is successful, your patron has no control over your actions and does not influence your personality and alignment, and you are said to have made a good pact.
If you fail the binding check, your patron influences your personality and your actions, and you are said to have made a poor pact. Specifically, the patron’s presence changes the warlocks general demeanor, and it can force him to perform or refrain from certain actions as if under the effect of a Geas effect (influence is up to the GM and the warlock to determine ).
The warlocks alignment is shifted one step, along the axis of the patrons choosing (at the GM's discretion) for every 5 points the warlock failed the binding check, for the duration of the pact. If under the influence of a poor pact with your patron, you must adhere to its alignment influence to the best of your ability.
If you are conscious and free-willed, and you encounter a situation in which you cannot or will not refrain from a prohibited action or perform a required one(at the GM's discretion), you take a –1 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks until the pact is concluded. If you fail to fulfill the requirements of your patron more than once, the penalties stack.
This ability replaces the class’s Eidolon ability.
This ability replaces the class’s Makers call ability.
This ability replaces the class’s Life bond ability.
wearing heavy armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spell-caster, a warlock using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
This ability replaces the class’s Greater aspect ability.
The warlock can end this effect as a free action. This ability replaces the class’s Twin eidolon ability.
Very nice, Nighttree. I took a different take on my version warlock but it also is a spontaneous 1-6 level caster.
Master Arminas
I would consider making Elusive Presence an immediate action so it can be used when someone casts a detect spell. With a swift action, the warlock would need to know it was coming and cast it on his turn before the detect spell was cast. You might also want to specific a duration.
Also, you might consider having the pact influence the summoning and planar binding spells. For example, if you summon a demon while you are bound to a demonic pact, the summons might last longer or the demon might get some minor boost.
I'll have to give that some thought...I currently think it makes more sense that the warlock would need to be aware of the effect, in order to cloak his patron.
I had actually intended for any summoning they do when pact bound, to match their patron....so for example if you are bound to a chaotic evil being, your summons take on those types....have to figure out the wording there and make sure to clean it up.
Many thanks for the input ;)
Very nice, Nighttree. I took a different take on my version warlock but it also is a spontaneous 1-6 level caster.
Master Arminas
That's a nice conversion, for those looking at the "blaster" warlock of 3.5.....well done ;)