Am I missing something, or is dragon form utterly superior to giant form?
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Sometimes you want hands.
Am I missing something, or is dragon form utterly superior to giant form?
Generelly I'd say form of the dragon is preferable.
One difference that can be an advantage to giant form, is that your equipment does not meld into your body, so you can use them eventhough you are polymorphed. Haven't really experience with that high levels, but it might be interesting if you have a powerful staff.
Other than that taking a form that grants you regeneration might be very useful.
Sometimes you want hands.
For what, precisely? Dragons can already cast spells. I could understand if the spell wasn't personal, and you were casting it on the fighter, but given that the dragon gains more Str, more Con, no Dex penalty, higher natural armor, better senses, damage reduction, natural attacks, a breath weapon and definite immunity to an energy type, I don't see any advantage whatsoever to taking the giant form. They are even the same size.
As for taking a form with regen, that's a troll form, and I am unaware atm of any Huge size trolls.
Sometimes you want hands.For what, precisely? Dragons can already cast spells. I could understand if the spell wasn't personal, and you were casting it on the fighter, but given that the dragon gains more Str, more Con, no Dex penalty, higher natural armor, better senses, damage reduction, natural attacks, a breath weapon and definite immunity to an energy type, I don't see any advantage whatsoever to taking the giant form. They are even the same size.
As for taking a form with regen, that's a troll form, and I am unaware atm of any Huge size trolls.
Well being Huge isn't necessarily an advantage.
You still need the hands (the form) for using any magic items you have, apart from constant bonusses. That might outweight some of the advantages of form of the dragon.
About the advantages of the dragon:
- Higher AC due to NA and no dex penalty, is definately useful.
- More Con, thus more hp, is always useful.
- Immunity is often useful, though some of the giants get that as well.
- The breath weapon can be useful in the right circumstances. But when you got 8 level spells, there might be better option.
- At level 17 having DR/magic is going to be irrelevant more often than not.
- Higher str bonus and more natural attacks is not the least useful for most wizards, as they are not going to do anything useful in melee anyway.
- The frightful presence is a good bonus, as any free action abilities is.
- Better senses can be nice under the right circumstances, but not a deal breaker for me.
- The flying speed is good, but flying shouldn't be a problem at these levels.
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Sometimes you want hands.For what, precisely? Dragons can already cast spells. I could understand if the spell wasn't personal, and you were casting it on the fighter, but given that the dragon gains more Str, more Con, no Dex penalty, higher natural armor, better senses, damage reduction, natural attacks, a breath weapon and definite immunity to an energy type, I don't see any advantage whatsoever to taking the giant form. They are even the same size.
As for taking a form with regen, that's a troll form, and I am unaware atm of any Huge size trolls.
Dragons can cast spells as a sorcerer, you are likely to have issues with material components. Likewise all your equipment melds into your body. You won't have access to wands, scrolls, whatever is in your pack.
For a wizard Dragon Form I is probably better because you really don't want/ need to be a huge dragon with a target painted on his chest.
Now an eldritch knight with FoD might be pretty awesome.
I guess my real question is if the two spells (giant II and dragon III) are the same level, why doesn't giant II have anything going for it over the other?
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Don't dis awesome rock throwing and hands instead of claws to manipulate things.
Giant form also opens up the opportunity for a rend attack, +10 ft to speed, ect..
The point of many spells is to have versatility. For example, sometimes you might want the natural attacks of the dragon, and the flight. Other times, flight might not be an option, so bonuses to land speed and rock throwing/rend/ win out.
If you don't have a way to ignore spell components, then the dragon form might be more of a drawback than the giant form.
Giant form has plenty going for it over dragon form, in the right situation.
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I guess my real question is if the two spells (giant II and dragon III) are the same level, why doesn't giant II have anything going for it over the other?
Access to your equipment is a BIG deal. Especially if you don't have eschew material. And even then, like I said, shield bashing foes into hungry pits is fun and effective...can't shield bash without a shield.
I guess my real question is if the two spells (giant II and dragon III) are the same level, why doesn't giant II have anything going for it over the other?
Access to your equipment like mentioned is important, you can still get to use armor shield and weapons, also (metamagic rods), staves and wands, an Eldritch Knight would likely prefer the giant form, personally I do not have a problem with a Giant Troll, even though it is a template creature which brings back the fast healing back to the table.
Giant form is not Humanoid, it's Giant. By the polymorph rules, your equipment still melds into your body.
Giants are Humanoids in Pathfinder. Giant is a subtype of Humanoid, not a type of its own.
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Am I missing something, or is dragon form utterly superior to giant form?Generelly I'd say form of the dragon is preferable.
One difference that can be an advantage to giant form, is that your equipment does not meld into your body, so you can use them eventhough you are polymorphed. Haven't really experience with that high levels, but it might be interesting if you have a powerful staff.
Other than that taking a form that grants you regeneration might be very useful.Unless the new form is humanoid, all gear merges into the form. Constant bonuses (except AC) remain. Activation items can't be activated. Material components are not accessible while merged into the form.
Giant form is not Humanoid, it's Giant. By the polymorph rules, your equipment still melds into your body.
Giants are Hmanoid (Giant) in Pathfinder. So equipment doesn't merge.
It doesn't magically change size either, since this is not the Enlarge spell. If it doesn't fit onto the changed form, it's melded within.
I would say you are making that up, it doesn't seem to say that at all.
Does your gear merge when you change into a gnome from a human?
Thank you for the answers, guys. I appreciate it.
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The Enlarge/Shrink Person spell specifically states that your gear changes to match your size.
There is no such text for Polymorph effects.
You need to read the rules on Polymorph spells LazarX.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
I consider a form that's 20 feet tall to be significantly "unlike" an original form of 4 to 6.
Then you'd be wrong.
It specifically says (if you read the quoted part) what types merge into you. Also, by your interpretation, the section I bolded on resizing is meaningless, as by your definition anytime your equipment requires resizing it melds since the form is different.
Humanoid -> Humanoid is same type. Humanoid -> animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type is different type.
If you wish to houserule it, that's fine, but RAW is same type = same type, and you resize equipment when you polymorph.
Note this works both ways. A dragon that took polymorph to change into a humanoid would merge any equipment he was wearing, as that equipment would have been a dragon type. If he'd polymorph into a dragon type, the equipment would resize.
It specifically says (if you read the quoted part) what types merge into you. Also, by your interpretation, the section I bolded on resizing is meaningless, as by your definition anytime your equipment requires resizing it melds since the form is different.
Humanoid -> Humanoid is same type. Humanoid -> animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type is different type.
If you wish to houserule it, that's fine, but RAW is same type = same type, and you resize equipment when you polymorph.
Note this works both ways. A dragon that took polymorph to change into a humanoid would merge any equipment he was wearing, as that equipment would have been a dragon type. If he'd polymorph into a dragon type, the equipment would resize.
+1
If you stay in any Humanoid form at all and you are a humanoid you have full access to all of your gear. It sizes to fit you and for all intents and purposes you are exactly the same as your old character with full access to class abilities and gear... plus whatever abilities you gain from the spell on top of that.
It specifically says (if you read the quoted part) what types merge into you. Also, by your interpretation, the section I bolded on resizing is meaningless, as by your definition anytime your equipment requires resizing it melds since the form is different.
Humanoid -> Humanoid is same type. Humanoid -> animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type is different type.
If you wish to houserule it, that's fine, but RAW is same type = same type, and you resize equipment when you polymorph.
Note this works both ways. A dragon that took polymorph to change into a humanoid would merge any equipment he was wearing, as that equipment would have been a dragon type. If he'd polymorph into a dragon type, the equipment would resize.
+1
If you stay in any Humanoid form at all and you are a humanoid you have full access to all of your gear. It sizes to fit you and for all intents and purposes you are exactly the same as your old character with full access to class abilities and gear... plus whatever abilities you gain from the spell on top of that.
Note that you lose any racial abilities you had while polymorphed. So, if you have the elf ability that lets you stabilize someone with a touch, you lose that. You also lose low-light vision, keen senses, etc.
Now an eldritch knight with FoD might be pretty awesome.
Oh it is *grin* - especially when you first set down a potion of bull's strength to cast transformation with...
That said, keeping my arcane bond'd falchion in hand in Giant Form is pretty sweet too.
The Enlarge/Shrink Person spell specifically states that your gear changes to match your size.
There is no such text for Polymorph effects.
Enlarge person has specific text in it about gear resizing b/c EP is not a polymorph spell, just a transmutation one. It requires language to clarify what happens to your gear b/c since it's not a plymorph spell it doesn't automatically use the polymorph rules.
The Enlarge/Shrink Person spell specifically states that your gear changes to match your size.
There is no such text for Polymorph effects.
I'm assuming you aren't actually answering my question, which is when you change from a gnome to a human via alter self. It does say your gear resizes.
Naturally, we agree about enlarge person, but I don't see that particularly relevant.