Every AP or just Kingmaker? While I enjoyed Kingmaker the down time made things rather easy compared to other AP's.
But yes, there is a HUGE discrepancy between the games my players are used to, and published adventure paths. I find myself forced to "fix" every encounter, which basically means I could just as well take the extra hour to write my own fluff and it will be my own creation after all.
Kingmaker is the main offender, partially for reasons you describe, but mostly due to milking the system of every bonus available and optimizing on the verge of power-gaming. I was not joking when I said the lv14 party could likely take on the tarrasque.
Other APs we have played (Crimson Throne, Serpent Skull are the only ones played over half-way due to change of players and other circumstances)... well, let's just say that everyone quickly notice which encounters are scripted, and which are homemade to pad it out or add "creative input".
@David Godfrey: First time I hear of it at least. And don't worry, the level of professionalism and reliance on search functions is not exactly what the forum is famed for :P
Welcome. And thanks for the input.
Oh No Effective Characters!I have nothing against well-designed characters.
In fact, that's pretty much the most fun part of the game for me.
There comes a point, though, when the GM says, "Well, that was fun (dripping with sarcasm)" as his latest NPC/Monster/Etc gets destroyed by 1 PC's first round salvo.
GMs having no fun means no games happen.
No disagreement there -- however the solution is not simply nerfing the heck out of a few classes or abilities -- it's building effective encounters.
Every AP or just Kingmaker? While I enjoyed Kingmaker the down time made things rather easy compared to other AP's.
But yes, there is a HUGE discrepancy between the games my players are used to, and published adventure paths. I find myself forced to "fix" every encounter, which basically means I could just as well take the extra hour to write my own fluff and it will be my own creation after all.
Kingmaker is the main offender, partially for reasons you describe, but mostly due to milking the system of every bonus available and optimizing on the verge of power-gaming. I was not joking when I said the lv14 party could likely take on the tarrasque.
** spoiler omitted **
Other APs we have played (Crimson Throne, Serpent Skull are the only ones played over half-way due to change of players and other circumstances)... well, let's just say that everyone quickly notice which encounters are scripted, and which are homemade to pad it out or add "creative input".
@David Godfrey: First time I hear of it at least. And don't worry, the level of professionalism and reliance on search functions is not exactly what the forum is famed for :P
Welcome. And thanks for the input.
I don't think I will run an open time limit game ever again, not from beginning to end anyway. My group did the same thing. Hopefully I can replace my 2 of my players that are moving away so I can run Carrion Crown.
|
No disagreement there -- however the solution is not simply nerfing the heck out of a few classes or abilities -- it's building effective encounters.Oh No Effective Characters!I have nothing against well-designed characters.
In fact, that's pretty much the most fun part of the game for me.
There comes a point, though, when the GM says, "Well, that was fun (dripping with sarcasm)" as his latest NPC/Monster/Etc gets destroyed by 1 PC's first round salvo.
GMs having no fun means no games happen.
Fair point, I guess.
The issue comes in when said GM is running an AP (and a generally well-written one at that - I love KM as written) with the intention of saving preparation time.
When you have to deconstruct the encounters as written, only to spend time to rebuild them to your party's level of ability, that defeats the entire purpose of running the AP as time-saver.
@Kamelguru: I would definitely check out Turin the Mad's Campaign Journal (as well as mine, there are some stat blocks in there) for some "high-threat" NPCs. Shoot me an email as well
edit: links added in.
|
Honestly, 4th Edition's handling of this was one of the few things I liked about the system. Action economy imbalances between a single BBEG facing off against 3-8 players is why the BBEG gets his butt kicked.
How did 4th edition handle this, just out of curiosity? I've never played, so I'm interested in seeing what their solution was :)
No disagreement there -- however the solution is not simply nerfing the heck out of a few classes or abilities -- it's building effective encounters.Oh No Effective Characters!I have nothing against well-designed characters.
In fact, that's pretty much the most fun part of the game for me.
There comes a point, though, when the GM says, "Well, that was fun (dripping with sarcasm)" as his latest NPC/Monster/Etc gets destroyed by 1 PC's first round salvo.
GMs having no fun means no games happen.
Had I the time to do so, no problem. When I craft stuff, things are effective and dangerous. But I have a family, a job and serious disabilities, so I have neither the time nor the energy to spare, which is the main reason I use APs. And the time saving is gone if I need to rework 80% of the encounters in an AP to step up to the challenge.
Which is why I am looking for a few simplified solutions, be it "must have" gear, tweak-templates, etc. I guess I could just start fudging more and whatnot though.
Fair enough.
You are doing kingmaker right? Want some monsters that should put the fear of fey into your characters? I'm more than willing to help you with nasty little things to make the PCs sweat.
Some relatively quick fixes:
Stat up a "counter-wizard". This stat block is someone who has heard of the PC Wizard and hires him/her self out to counteract the PC wizard. Make two or three variations, so that when one dies, another (slightly different) can step in. The heroes are famous, right? Their tactics could be well known and analyzed by other intelligent, interested parties. Just keep this in your back pocket for when needed. Use sparingly, to keep the players guessing and the character fresh.
Stat up a "counter-warrior mook squad" list of tactics. basically, use any mooks who might appear, and assume that they have dealt with high level fighters/barbarians/paladins before. Again, the key is that the PCs are famous; so someone thoughtful has drilled the guards in counter strategies. If the PC does something unexpected, let them, the point is to show that their regular tactics have been studied. You'd be surprised what 3 or 4 mooks can do, using cooperative tactics designed to show that they want to live. Maybe change out a few of their feats for Teamwork feats (these feats are great for mooks, moreso than PCs). They'll still die, but they'll last longer and be a bigger impediment to Sir Cuisinart.
Nets. Nets are great! All you have to do is hit touch AC and the target is entangled, no save! Great for high AC types (except monks).
Use something I call Irori's Running Team. Build a monk with Fleet taken enough times to do the job. This monk is very fast, with Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. The purpose is to be out of reach of the melee characters, and to run in and out smacking spellcasters around using held actions to Spring Attack in and out of the fray whenever they start to cast. Alternative: speed grapplers who run in from a great distance to choke the cleric. Deflect Arrows to deal with archers. Use sparingly, can be quite hilarious. Best mixed in with standard mooks.
Caltrops. These things are hilarious when they shut a charge down. 40 AC, you say? Not so much on the feet. No shield, no armor, no deflection. +2 for footwear.
Tanglefoot bags. Touch AC, move at half speed. Just to slow them down a few rounds. Every mook should have one. Lob and watch the slowness!
It looks like you're trying to build a Doomsday to match your Superman PCs. Don't; Superman is boring, two of them moreso. Batman your PCs. I don't mean to outthink them (although you should, but you seem to be on the ball with that). I mean to use cheap stuff that they may have forgotten about to your advantage. The BBGs are usually the defenders, right? So use caltrops, nets, tanglefoot bags, etc, as tailored countermeasures against foes they have undoubtedly heard about. The goal is to slow the PCs down and give them a measure of respect for the mind of the foe that they are facing. Sure, you can beef up the BBG. But a much smaller upgrade to the mooks or minor changes to the feats or equipment can also go a long way. The mooks don't know that they are mooks; they do know that they want to live. How do you deal with a dangerous animal that is more powerful than you? Rope-a-dope and tool use. Same principle here. These work across all types of encounters and situations. Stat blocks are reusable. Oh, the party killed CounterWizard the Vexatious? Well, too bad his master, the lovely Ixnay of the Battlefield Control Denialists Guild wants revenge. You party Fighter is the greatest swordsman who has ever lived? True. That's why Sergeant Mookus Saviorus tells half his men to cast nets, caltrops, and tanglefoot bags while the other half lobs liquid ice for easier touch ACs (does damage while preserving the nets, you see). Archers, shoot that cleric that Sister Grabya of the very Touchy-Feely sect of Nuns is holding down. Fight in a running retreat! We can't stand toe to toe with these guys!
So says Sergeant Mookus Saviorus, right hand of El Mondo Malo the Cheat.
Nerfing is a fine solution. Sometimes you don't want to have to run your game using Pathfinder's logical extrapolations to create a really strange world that doesn't emulate fiction. If nerfing gets you to what you want, I say go for it.
Nerfing is an easy solution. It's isn't fine -- it has all the subtlety of a tactical nuke and none of the raw majesty or awe (yes nukes are awesome weapons especially in the original definition of the word).
Now if a GM is planning these sorts of nerfs as a player I want to know immediately.
I hate nerfing in general -- but I can live with it -- stealth nerfing however is beyond the pale for me and takes me from annoyed but willing to go with it to down right angry -- since if I don't know the nerf is happening you are wasting my time, resources and efforts without giving me a chance to know why or to choose different resources, efforts and tactics.
A stealth nerf literally is stealing from your player -- and in my (not so humble) opinion is player abuse.
(I am not accusing anyone here of stealth nerfing -- simply making my opinion on the practice known)
Honestly, 4th Edition's handling of this was one of the few things I liked about the system. Action economy imbalances between a single BBEG facing off against 3-8 players is why the BBEG gets his butt kicked.How did 4th edition handle this, just out of curiosity? I've never played, so I'm interested in seeing what their solution was :)
Been a couple of years at least since I've even opened a 4E book/pdf, but I believe that they had monsters more strictly codified into types, with things like 'elite' and 'solo' monsters. These creatures gained a lot more HP and I think were given some extra action abilities. I vaguely recall that some creatures gained special immediate actions upon hitting certain HP thresholds (a dragon could use its breath weapon when hitting 1/2 HP or something without eating up one of the monster's normally allocated actions and outside of the breath weapon refresh mechanism I THINK).
Again, it's been a long time since I looked at the rules. I just recall being far more satisfied, both in fighting against a single monster and in creating encounters to pit against players.
Someone mentioned Trailblazer, so I went and downloaded that, and it appears to have some of the same features for encounter building. Its rules for solo monsters boil down to:
-extra HP: multiply HP by number of players facing it
-gain action points: looked like (on a quick scanning) 1 AP/PC
-can use AP to gain additional actions...looked like an AP for a single action that can be taken at any time, but doesn't interrupt another character's actions: your solo monster could take another attack when it isn't its turn, but can't do so to interrupt someone else in the middle of theirs.
There are other uses for action points (similar to those in the APG) that can also be used.
If you are using undead traps that burst out negative energy are great. Hurts the PCs and heals the undead at the same time. Especially if the traps reset. Now the players have to figure out how to either disarm the trap during the fight or how to drop the undead before everyone gets hit again with negative energy.
Don't forget nice feats like ouflank and gang up. Wonderful synergy there for mooks.
And having a bard around is never a bad idea -- monks with outflank and gang up with a bard to give them good hope and inspire courage will scare PCs. Watching your enemies get +8 to hit you and +4 damage from all sides really is scary. Especially if they are harder to hit because they are all using shield wall and bodyguard too.