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My group is in book 1 of the Kingmaker AP. They're still carrying around a "THERE'S THE ADVENTUERE!!! HEAD STRAIGHT THERE!!!" mentality.
Rather than map out hexes and deal with things as they come, perhaps with a slight distraction here or there, they're bee-lining every time a plot hook presents itself. I've thrown an obstacle at them from time to time to stop them from killing themselves.
So far, they've gotten a little lucky and, having a druid with a bear pet has made a major difference in every combat (really... its a major killing machine at 1st - 3rd levels). But they're not giving themselves the chance to run into these things on a normal course. Much of the map remains unexplored, as a result. (Don't worry about how they're getting from place to place... its all by the rules and I really don't want THAT to be the subject discussed).
Incidenatlly, that's the one plotline they didn't bee-line for. Thankfully!
As luck would have it, because they are winning and dealing with the major encounters, they are getting the xp they need to level up. I can't just toss in new encounters for them because the extra xp would mess things up as we go forward.
I'm trying to be as hands-off as I can and let the AP run like a true sandbox so, so far, I haven't done anything to put them on any sort of track. My main concern is that, by the time they stop running from plot hook to plot hook, there might not be much to entertain them as they do the exploration part of the adventure.
So... should I even care?
"Giving the SwordLords a completed map of the Stolen Lands" is a plot hook.
As for the rest: hide the hooks. Reveal them slowly. Put the PCs in a position where they don't know what to do next and are "bored" and have to chart their own course.
And once you do reveal a plot hook, don't let them know where the next step is. Make them hunt and search for it. Jack up the Survival DCs to follow people (are you rolling for weather effects? rains makes tracking hard)
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Another good method is to give them more hooks than they can feasibly do at once.
Tatzlwyrms, Radish Patches, Boar Hunts front load them with plot hooks, so that way they can constantly be on the look out for stuff to do. Also give them Hero Points for each Plot Hook completed, if they get a positive reward for slowing down and exploring and seeking adventure then that should help immensely.
Finally, just flat out tell them: There is no hurry in this AP, you don't win by rushing. Take your time and get to know the land and the people in it. You'll have a far more interesting time.
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"Giving the SwordLords a completed map of the Stolen Lands" is a plot hook.
Behind the screens, this is apparent. To the players, this is what they're doing while finding the REAL adventure.
As for the rest: hide the hooks. Reveal them slowly. Put the PCs in a position where they don't know what to do next and are "bored" and have to chart their own course.
And once you do reveal a plot hook, don't let them know where the next step is. Make them hunt and search for it. Jack up the Survival DCs to follow people (are you rolling for weather effects? rains makes tracking hard)
Slowing things down isn't an issue. I can. I wasn't asking how to do that. I was asking if I should. Should I care or just let them play it the way they seem to want to?
My gut is saying, "Hands off! Its a sandbox. Let them play in it."
My mind is wondering if they're going to get bored when they go back to exploring and the only thing they have going on is the occasional wandering encounter.
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Finally, just flat out tell them: There is no hurry in this AP, you don't win by rushing. Take your time and get to know the land and the people in it. You'll have a far more interesting time.
I can adjust the pace. I'm wondering if I should. Right now, the players are controlling the pace. That's one of the benefits of a sandbox. Should I get in the way of that?
(Don't worry about how they're getting from place to place... its all by the rules and I really don't want THAT to be the subject discussed).
But...but...awww.
I mean, this, plus one or two other things, lead me to believe that you're more in cahoots with the players than you may readily realize to make their beeline a possibility, even if you're not conscious of it. The again, that's arguably a sign of good DMing, so mind it too much.
I do think that you're aware of the risk, specifically in book 2 where things turn really pace oriented rather than plot oriented. But I think that you do have a very definitive transition between the two books, so it just becomes something you need to make sure to hammer home when the time comes.
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My players are lose in the sandbox. If they go in to a area I don't want them in yet. I get out the next AP book befor I have them roll random encounters. Not that I use it but it gives them the idea there in the wrong place. One time I even pulled out the book for the Noman Hights becous they when in to the wrong area. Thes was when they where on book one of the AP. Nothing scares PC faster then knowing they are rolling encounters for characters 4, or more levels higher then they are. My job as a GM is to keap the players guessing what im going to do next.
One way to spice things up a bit for them is a "hit and run" villain that harasses them semi-regularly, leading them off on random tangets, stealing their booze ... say, a pseudodragon rogue or something.
Play up any of the numerous "seeds" just waiting for you to germinate them for your group ... ancient cults, mysterious pre-historical [as in, more than 10 thousand years ago pre-historical] empires, man-eating sociopaths ...
This is the same for my group. I'm running two groups and through 3 sessions they've charged straight for each plot hook and haven't explored any hexes except for one:
They're doing well, killing bandits and overwhelming encounters 2-3 CR above them, though I had a troll encounter turn into a "spot from a distance and avoid" encounter since that would've definitely been a TPK. I think it's just getting used to a new way of doing things though, they've been getting a little better as we go.
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One way to spice things up a bit for them is a "hit and run" villain that harasses them semi-regularly, leading them off on random tangets, stealing their booze ... say, a pseudodragon rogue or something.
I actually planted the seeds for this.
Anya was described as a sorcerer/bandit who didn't cow to the Stag Lord and was fighting a guerrilla war against those loyal to him. That's the party line. I haven't actually decided exactly what Anya is. She may be exactly what the bandits believe. Or she might be something quite different.
Play up any of the numerous "seeds" just waiting for you to germinate them for your group ... ancient cults, mysterious pre-historical [as in, more than 10 thousand years ago pre-historical] empires, man-eating sociopaths ...
You've been reading my mind, haven't you.
One of the players is a half-elf raised by his elven parent. Always feeling somehow separated from those he lived with, he wanted, at the very least, to somehow include his name in elven history. Learning that there are pre-earthfall elven ruins in the Stolen Lands, he left home and headed there - pioneering (as per the trait) along the southern border of Brevoy until word came that the Swordlords in Restov were looking for intrepid individuals to explore the Greenbelt and beyond.
I'll be adding something for him to discover... clues first, of course. Then, eventually, enough info for him to find it (diverting from the official adventure). Of course, said ruins are busily being used by someone else. Perhaps drow.
Hmm.. Anya could be a drow sorcerer using Alter Self to appear otherwise.. maybe the first clue to the presence of those ruins...
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This is the same for my group.
Sounds like we have very similar groups.
They come away from each session talking about all the fun they're having so I DON'T want to change their approach...
But I'm concerned about the possibility they will become bored if they've exhausted all the encounters before going back to explore the hexes and nothing interesting is going on beyond the occasional random encounter so I DO want to change their approach.
So there's my dilemma.
Don't change their approach. The whole point of the sandbox is that the PCs can approach it however they want. (And honestly there's nothing in Stolen Lands that 1st level characters can't handle, except for the Stag Lord's Fort.)
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I mean, this, plus one or two other things, lead me to believe that you're more in cahoots with the players than you may readily realize to make their beeline a possibility, even if you're not conscious of it. The again, that's arguably a sign of good DMing, so mind it too much.
I definitely don't see the GM's role as adversarial. I've been GM'ing or DM'ing since 1979... and for the players in this group since 1986 (with one addition in 2001). I don't think I'm in cahoots with them more than just being a non-adversarial GM.
I do think that you're aware of the risk, specifically in book 2 where things turn really pace oriented rather than plot oriented. But I think that you do have a very definitive transition between the two books, so it just becomes something you need to make sure to hammer home when the time comes.
Then your advice is that I should do something to curb their current practice? I'd rather it not be something that "The GM told us not to run after each lead." because I'm sure they'll complain when they DON'T do that and some bad guy gets away, gets the drop on them or somehow makes things worse for them. I'd rather nudge them via events in the game to make them realize this themselves (so they blame themselves when it goes wrong rather than blame me!!! heheheh)
I think it is fine to let them determine their own pace and how they go about things. I have just two recommendations.
First, OOC let them know that this AP, because of its sandbox nature, can be very punishing on PCs who rush through things and take on tasks before they are ready to do so. In short, the training wheels are off, and they should not count on the GM not throwing something against them they could never possibly defeat.
Second, make sure they understand their Swordlord patrons expect them to fully explore the land and turn over a detailed map which would be useful for eventual colonization. This is just as important a part of their mission as defeating the bandits. You might even let them know they get XP for exploration.
But in the end, because this is pretty sandboxy, let them do it the way they want, and both reap the rewards and suffer the consequences for doing things the way they want. You may find it a self-correcting problem if they have their butts handed to them a couple of times by stuff they aren't ready to face yet.
I agree with the assertion that nothing but the Stag Lord's fort can't be handled by 1st level characters. When the party turned 2, I upped the difficulty on a lot of the encounters to keep things interesting. They still had a few cakewalks though.
Even the Stag Lord's fort can be taken at 1st level if the players don't approach it as a combat encounter. I would recommend that most of the party is 3 before going in though, since you know there will be combat. Other than that, let them wander.
If the players seem like they are getting bored, stop using random encounters. Instead, use those encounters to guide the players somewhere interesting for them to explore. Perhaps they find tracks leading to the unicorn hex, or get ambushed by a group of Mites. Tie something into what they are doing and gently lead the players somewhere ineresting. I recommend this only once they are bored though, and if they don't seem interested in the mapping quest. When you want them to progress to the Stag Lord, you can always have him instigate something, like a formal attack on Oleg's.
+1 to the suggestions to let them charge toward whatever they want to. So long as they know the world is not going to scale up and down to their whims you have nothing to worry about on your end.
If they come upon clever/lucky ways of surmounting challenges that are statted up beyond their ken...awesome. If they die screaming under the knives/claws of things they should have run from...awesome. Basically however it turns out...awesome.
Judging by their direct nature I would also heavily consider doing kingdom in the background when it comes time for that between the end of Stolen Land and Blood for Blood. You know them better than any of us, but if I had the experience you are having I would reduce that aspect of the campaign to hand waiving/GM Fiat and move forward with the adventure modules.
Remove all the speed signs on every freeway in America and people will still drive around 70-75mph...humans are kooky.
I agree with those who said you should leave it up to your PCs. They appear to be having fun, which is the important part. And while they may be making beelines for certain plots, as they go about searching hexes they'll find more plots and interesting stuff.
If you're worried they'll make a beeline for the BBEG, you can control that by not letting them know where it is. They'll have to search each hex to find it.
You can also explain that they're not on a timeline here. My players, after defeating the
Overall, I'd let things slide as they are. I doubt they'll get bored any time soon. Keep them away from the end until they're ready (be sneaky if you need to!) and they'll catch on soon enough that those hexes they've been ignoring have their own encounters and goodies to find. Toss in some of your own if necessary, or change things around a bit.
But, really, if they're having a blast, don't change much of anything. Sounds like your group is enjoying themselves, and I strongly suspect they'll get into the groove of this very different AP rather quickly.
And, of course, once they get to starting their own kingdom, they'll REALLY see the value of fully exploring hexes...:)
Yea, my guys are doing the same as ChrisO's guys. After Oleg's, they headed to
If they don't, and get TPK'd at the final quest, then the Swordlords could send another group, at appropriate level, to clean up their mess, after Oleg reports their demise.
-- david
Papa.DRB
My players, after defeating theSpoiler:, started exploring each hex individually while pursuing a quest. "We were told the XYZ is south of here, so let's go search for it!"Thorn River Bandit Camp
Same. My players didn't go straight for the Bandit Lord's fort only because I did what I could to conceal its location from them artificially. The bandit they left alive to tell them information told them some stuff about it, but I decided that he at least had been blindfolded for the trip.
And that was stripping away the "this password expires in a week" thing, too. Such a time limit would have guaranteed that they'd squeeze every piece of information out until they could find it at level two.
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I'm running two different groups through right now. First group is more cautious and focused on exploring and kingdom building. They're in RRR, about 6th level, and just had a random encounter with
4 trolls at the south end of the map.
They dealt with them, but it was a great warning for them that, if that was a random encounter, worse things lie in that direction.
At 2nd level, my other group took out the
small bandit camp and headed right for the Stag Lord's fort.
They almost got killed. They barely escaped with their lives and fled back to Oleg's. You-know-who followed them and they had most of the showdown there. They leveled and then they went back
to the fort and faced the Stag Lord pretty much by himself. Even then, he had two of them down before they finished him.
I'd say let players go where they want and make sure they feel the consequences of going too far afield too early. I DO love the crazy hard random encounters that can happen almost anywhere. Teach 'em early that "not yet" and "run" are both acceptable tactics.
The suggestions to let the PCs do what they want are great, and I know the world won't revolve around them, I'm just worried because they aren't actually doing any exploring. Their charter requires them to explore, and I'm worried that they'll be stuck exploring 8-12 hexes with nothing but random encounters after they've bee-lined to all the known points of interest, and that doing so will turn them off the adventure. I think I'm going to have the NPC guards remind them about exploring by asking how their map is coming and stuff like that, and sounding disappointed when they realize how little they've mapped out.
If you're worried that they'll feel "stuck" exploring, then nagging them to explore may be the wrong approach. Especially in-character nagging by NPCs.
(It might work wonders to discuss with them the concept of the campaign again...such as an out-of-character reminder of: "Hey guys, this adventure is supposed to be more than just follow-the-railroad. We're having fun and it's great, but I'm worried about the long-term viability of the campaign because you're supposed to be exploring hexes and mapping the area, you're missing a lot of cool stuff by not doing that, and there's later stuff that can't even happen if you don't do the exploring.")
I'd recommend coming up with hooks to pull them to explore. Perhaps choose a reasonably nasty monster from the wandering monster table, and have it "switch its hunting range" from an unexplored hex to an area closer to the fort, attacking travelers or even attacking one of the fort NPCs while they were out (perhaps Svetlana has an herb garden outside the walls?). Have them do some appropriate knowledge and tracking rolls to figure out that this thing was in that nearby hex, and (as part of your answer on the knowledge roll) that if they'd explored that area a bit earlier, they could have dealt with it before it killed/scarred/did-other-horrible-thing-to someone at the fort.
Specific suggestion:
I inadvertently stifled the bee-line in my own game last week. The PCs were attacking the Thorn River Camp, and, after the battle, I forgot to mention the Stag amulets. The party paid little attention to the one on Happs Bydon when they captured him, so I decided to let the omission stand. I figured Kressle was too psycho to give up the information, and they didn't press the rank and file bandits that hard for information.
Now, they've got six bandits who've converted (via bribery) to their cause. At some point, the most honest of these will come to one of the PCs and say "you know, by the way, there's this other bandit lord to the south, and the other guys decided not to tell you...", thus creating some conflict between the PCs and the recruits. Since they are as yet unaware, I'm going to hold off on telling them until they've got some more exploring done.
If you're worried that they'll feel "stuck" exploring, then nagging them to explore may be the wrong approach. Especially in-character nagging by NPCs.
(It might work wonders to discuss with them the concept of the campaign again...such as an out-of-character reminder of: "Hey guys, this adventure is supposed to be more than just follow-the-railroad. We're having fun and it's great, but I'm worried about the long-term viability of the campaign because you're supposed to be exploring hexes and mapping the area, you're missing a lot of cool stuff by not doing that, and there's later stuff that can't even happen if you don't do the exploring.")
I'd recommend coming up with hooks to pull them to explore. Perhaps choose a reasonably nasty monster from the wandering monster table, and have it "switch its hunting range" from an unexplored hex to an area closer to the fort, attacking travelers or even attacking one of the fort NPCs while they were out (perhaps Svetlana has an herb garden outside the walls?). Have them do some appropriate knowledge and tracking rolls to figure out that this thing was in that nearby hex, and (as part of your answer on the knowledge roll) that if they'd explored that area a bit earlier, they could have dealt with it before it killed/scarred/did-other-horrible-thing-to someone at the fort.
Specific suggestion:
** spoiler omitted **
Hmm, I dunno about that wandering monster thing. To me it's one thing to have an NPC warn the PCs that their authority granted by their charter is contingent on them mapping the region, and another to have a monster ravage an NPC and be like, "Sorry, guess y'all should've fully explored more, huh?". Now that they've taken out some bandits I plan on having more people show up at Oleg's, maybe giving the party some more rumors and hooks will help the exploring.
I think I'm going to have the NPC guards remind them about exploring by asking how their map is coming and stuff like that, and sounding disappointed when they realize how little they've mapped out.
This is an excellent idea. You could even have the Swordlords ask for a formal progress report through Kesten Garess, and express disappointment if their progress has not been enough.