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Ok, let's talk shop.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
1. Let us say that you are in combat for this, if your character gains concealment via a cloud effect (obscuring mist, smokestick, fog cloud) can you make a stealth check (in combat) while in the cloud or on the edge of it? That is to say with the 50% or 20% concealment granted from the effect?
1A. If we say yes, does a character on the edge of the cloud still have concealment to maintain stealth? Ideally, this would be shooting/attacking a target outside the could. Assume the attacker would not have any vision or obstructions from the edge of their square to the target.
2. Is bluff the only way to "create a distraction" or would a fog cloud also create one? What about reatreating out of a room? (out of sight)
3. Can you shoot from cover without having to leave cover? Please refer to the following diagram. R = Rogue, C = Cover Object, E = Enemy, X = empty sqare
R x
C x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x E
x x
Using cover rules here, you can gain stealth. IMO you do not lose stealth while attacking in this way. If the wall is a low wall you can gain cover from it and shoot over it. Correct? If the wall is a high object you can designate the corner of your square as the source of your ranged attack and from these corners your line of sight/effect is not broken by anything.
4. Finally and most grandly, if any of these hair-brained ideas work as I'm thinking, is your target blind to you? Are you "invisible" to them? What is the penalty for not being aware of a target? Are they flat footed to you?
Note: I haven't yet thought about what would happen once you strike the character and they become "aware" something is attacking them from your general direction. If you don't use the "sniping" clause n Stealth then you're automatically detected?
1. Since low-light conditions (20% misschance) are normally enough to stealth (provided the targets cannot see fine in those conditions): yes.
2. Anything that the GM rules is a distraction counts. If you can successfully throw a rock at a spot without being observed, it might distract a guard enough (while he investigates) for you to stealth for a round. How long he's distracted isn't clear. And remember he still gets to make perception checks even while distracted (albeit at a penalty).
3. You can shoot from cover by partially revealing yourself (this isn't fully codified in rules, but personally I GM that you only possess partial cover to make use of a ranged attack). The target may fail to detect the shooter; but he can try to determine (against an easier DC) where the shot was fired from. So a wizard could decide to lob a fireball at that location without knowing that you are hiding there.
4. Enemies that aren't aware of you are flat-footed to your attacks.
I like your answers adn the partial cover part is clever. However, one follow up..
4. Enemies that aren't aware of you are flat-footed to your attacks.
Is this true even after combat starts (and you manage to regain Stealth)? Entries on flat-footed only references combatants that are "unaware" at the start of combat due to initiative count or the surprise round.
Perhaps they could not cover these special cases in the descriptions.
I like your answers adn the partial cover part is clever. However, one follow up..
4. Enemies that aren't aware of you are flat-footed to your attacks.
Is this true even after combat starts (and you manage to regain Stealth)? Entries on flat-footed only references combatants that are "unaware" at the start of combat due to initiative count or the surprise round.
Perhaps they could not cover these special cases in the descriptions.
They are not flat-footed, but they are denied dex and unable to respond to what you do.
Mechanically it is very similar, but the difference does matter. Flat-footed is a condition just like being confused or stunned, and you can no more be stunned against just one opponent than you can be flat-footed against one opponent for that very reason.
Either you are flat-footed against everyone are you are not flat-footed at all, just like you are confused or either not confused.
Ok, let's talk shop.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.1. Let us say that you are in combat for this, if your character gains concealment via a cloud effect (obscuring mist, smokestick, fog cloud) can you make a stealth check (in combat) while in the cloud or on the edge of it? That is to say with the 50% or 20% concealment granted from the effect?
1A. If we say yes, does a character on the edge of the cloud still have concealment to maintain stealth? Ideally, this would be shooting/attacking a target outside the could. Assume the attacker would not have any vision or obstructions from the edge of their square to the target.
2. Is bluff the only way to "create a distraction" or would a fog cloud also create one? What about reatreating out of a room? (out of sight)
3. Can you shoot from cover without having to leave cover? Please refer to the following diagram. R = Rogue, C = Cover Object, E = Enemy, X = empty sqare
R x
C x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x x
x E
x xUsing cover rules here, you can gain stealth. IMO you do not lose stealth while attacking in this way. If the wall is a low wall you can gain cover from it and shoot over it. Correct? If the wall is a high object you can designate the corner of your square as the source of your ranged attack and from these corners your line of sight/effect is not broken by anything.
4. Finally and most grandly, if any of these hair-brained ideas work as I'm thinking, is your target blind to you? Are you "invisible" to them? What is...
1. If you have cover or concelment you can "stealth", so yes.
1a. The person on the edge of the cloud can stealth as long as the don't do anything that would remove their stealth, normal rules. For example, shooting from the edge of the cloud is covered under the sniper rules.
2. Bluff is the only way for a character to deliberately create a distration (throwing a rock is part of your bluff check, and may grant a bonus). However, they could benefit from other distractions (an unexpected explosion, a new group teleporting in, etc...)The fog cloud doesn't create a distraction it creates concelment and can be used to aid in hiding.
3. Covered by the sniping rules. Even if they can't see you, they know your there and that's all that's necessary for not being flat footed. They can be ready for someone to shoot at them from over that low wall. They may not know that it's "Bob" shooting at them, but they know that someone probably will.
4. Attacking from stealth means they are denied their dex to you.
Either you are flat-footed against everyone are you are not flat-footed at all, just like you are confused or either not confused.
I'm pretty sure I've seen abilities that make a target flat-footed against the attacker and NOT EVERYONE.
Also, the only real difference between the flat-footed condition and losing your Dexterity, is that you lose the ability to make attacks of opportunity in the former case.
Excellent discussion, thank you for your answers.
Ninja Vanish! *smokestick*
BTW how does one activate a smoke stick? Standard/Move/Swift/Free? Just drop it?
The shooting from around a corner is covered in the *cough* cover rules. Total cover is only achieved if they CAN NOT draw a line from ANY corner of their square to ANY of your square's corners. So if you are drawing a line from one of your corners to one of theirs, logically you do not have total cover - ergo they can see you. Of course, you almost certainly have partial cover.
It's still cover, it works for Stealth and for this discussion. They cannot see you because you are using Stealth.
[begin nitpick]
I did not say you have total cover, but you still have cover and since less than half of you is visible, you still have the full cover bonus (+4 AC, +2 Reflex).
Partial Cover =/= Cover
Cover =/= Total Cover
Partial Cover, Cover, Total Cover = Different kinds of Cover bonuses all good for stealth.
Total cover means they cannot attack you and they have no line of effect to you. When you peek from around the corner you still have Cover and can still attack someone while having the full bonus from cover.
However, if some GMs want to declare that you have partial cover when you take the shot that's fine. It still allows for sniping. Just be aware that the character will have Cover against retaliatory attacks.
[end nitpick]
Either you are flat-footed against everyone are you are not flat-footed at all, just like you are confused or either not confused.I'm pretty sure I've seen abilities that make a target flat-footed against the attacker and NOT EVERYONE.
Also, the only real difference between the flat-footed condition and losing your Dexterity, is that you lose the ability to make attacks of opportunity in the former case.
You're probably thinking of "denied their dexterity bonus" - a subtle difference.
How could I be confusing the two after I pointed out the difference between them? That makes no sense!
There are abilities out there that use the term "flat-footed" rather than "denied their Dex bonus."
Either you are flat-footed against everyone are you are not flat-footed at all, just like you are confused or either not confused.I'm pretty sure I've seen abilities that make a target flat-footed against the attacker and NOT EVERYONE.
Also, the only real difference between the flat-footed condition and losing your Dexterity, is that you lose the ability to make attacks of opportunity in the former case.
I forgot about shattering defenses, but that is the only exception I know of.
Normally being flat-footed means people run by you whether you know you they are there or not. This can be used to get to the squishes or set you up for a flank.
edit:I do think the wording of that was a typo. Being flat-footed against an attack does no good when you can just deny dex for the exact same benefit.
edit:I do think the wording of that was a typo. Being flat-footed against an attack does no good when you can just deny dex for the exact same benefit.
However, Uncanny Dodge counters Flat-Footedness. I think it was intentional on Shatter Defenses to leave it flat footed. I don't really like it (because I want to use Shatter Defenses) but I think it was on purpose.
Copied and Pasted from new thread-->Flat-footed is a specific condition that is either on or off meaning it should apply against everyone so what is the purpose of saying someone is flat-footed to one person's attacks when mechanically it means they are denied dex against that one person's attacks, since the wording implies the rest of the flat-footed condition is not gained.
@Stynkk:It only makes them flat-footed against attacks which sounds to me like they can still make attacks of opportunity. That is why I don't like the wording. The reason why flat-footed is better than just losing dex is because you dex is lost and no AoO's can happen. As written the feat does not make sense.
Cover and such has been tricky, I guess my brain is still stuck in the material of 3.x and DDM 1 & 2.
So some one see if I get this right, or if I have it gummed up.
The rogue stealth at the same spot and cover is a hard wall, ie hard corner.
He will not get sneak do to vanilla rogue Ra Sneak Attack 30'.
He has line of sight, and is considered invisible to the creature.
The creature does not have cover, because the rogue can line the corner of his square to all four corners of the creatures square.
The creature would have cover penalties firing at the rogue since his origin square would pass through the wall if he lined to all the rogues squares.
The Rogue could gain cover with stealth -20, against and opposed Perception.
Is there mechanics for a prone stance, shooting crossbows, or using blowgun(where is the errata for sniping with a blowgun)?
If you are in obscuring mist, you would be advised not to use the sniping rules.
Here's why.
You can only be observed (and observe others) if you are in the 5' edge of the mist. You can stealth all you want when not observed. Move to the edge using stealth. If you succeed, hold your action until next round. On the next round, full attack, then use a 5 foot movement to move deeper into the mist.
You have the target at 0 dex if he's unaware of you. Then, you move 5 foot back and he can not see you anymore. He can make the check to see where the shots came from, but you are no longer visible. You can now re-stealth, move to a new position the next round, and rinse and repeat until they run away, you kill them, they come into the mist, or the mist ends.
Yes, this prevents you from making an attack every round, but if you've got 6+ BAB, that's not as big as being able to hit your target without dex bonus every other round, and not take attacks in return. It works better if you have friends in the mist doing the same thing, or melee people keeping them busy while you shoot them.
On the next round, full attack, then use a 5 foot movement to move deeper into the mist.
You have the target at 0 dex if he's unaware of you. Then, you move 5 foot back and he can not see you anymore. He can make the check to see where the shots came from, but you are no longer visible.
Assuming that you have multiple attacks.. after the first attack you become observed. The remaining attacks are normal.
Also it's denied DEX. A '0' DEX is someone that is paralyzed.
So you can do this, but you would only have them denied DEX for the first attack. They would see you for the remaining attacks (if any).
As you are not sniping (which I grant is hard) then if they have an action readied to 'shoot when I see them' then they will have the chance to indeed shoot you... while if you are sniping there is a chance that they won't even see you.
There's a place for both here.
-James
Sorry, meant 0 DEX mod (as opposed to flat footed).
They don't automatically see you just because you attacked. Not in an obscuring mist. You do not leave the mist, therefore they still have penalties to see you (you still have 20% concealment even while attacking). It's a corner case, due to it being a spell. Unlike normal concealment, you do not need to leave it to attack. Ergo, as I said, they can make a perception check to figure it out, but until they actually see you or make the perception check to figure out where it's coming from (which is two different DCs) they don't get their dex bonus back.
Never said they couldn't try to shoot back, but again, without knowing where you are (remember, you are not only in 20% concealment with a 20% miss chance, even if they do see you), they still have to make the perception checks to see you. It's easier when you're shooting, but it's not like you're standing up from behind a wall to shoot. The mist never changes, and you don't leave it, so it's not an automatic 'You see them'.
I think everyone is thinking that you are stepping out of the mist or something. You aren't. You're still surrounded by it, it still grans concealment.