Creative Director
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Hey all,
Why is the Hamatulatsu disallowed for Organized play?
I might be able to understand for some of the fluff reasons since you might have to be evil to be trained in it but maybe not... since I guess the Devil Nuns promote equality... Anyhow, it is a mostly a harmless feat that certainly doesn't over power the Monk (as feats go it is actually pretty lame) but it does give the monk access to some interesting combinations which themselves are not too overpowered but cool, and it gives the character some interesting role-playing options by allowing it to incorporate a martial arts style feat into the monk = perhaps one monk calls it snake style or tiger style rather than Hamatulatusu.
I hope the developers of PFS change their mind and chose to allow this feat.
The version of the feat from the previous edition of the Campaign Setting hardcover was really over the top in a lot of ways. The new version is a LOT less crazed out, though, so we'll see what we can do about making it available. No promises, though! I can only advise and pester and cajole—Hyrum and Mark get to make the final decisions on what is and isn't legal for the org play campaign, after all!
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Yeah, the original version had a lot to it, and was easily taken by a 2nd level monk. The whole stacking crit was more than I would want to keep track of as a GM in a time-sensitive setting.
However, I suspect that it had more to do with the fluff background requirement that you had to be part of an evil sisterhood.
The new version is much more balanced and doesn't have that pesky pre-req, so it is definitely worth asking.
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Creative Director
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However, I suspect that it had more to do with the fluff background requirement that you had to be part of an evil sisterhood.
The new version is much more balanced and doesn't have that pesky pre-req, so it is definitely worth asking.
Perhaps... it was also a bit much for a feat even so.
In any event, the feat's much more balanced now, and while the Sisterhood doesn't approve of it being taught to non-members, it happens.
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However, I suspect that it had more to do with the fluff background requirement that you had to be part of an evil sisterhood.
The new version is much more balanced and doesn't have that pesky pre-req, so it is definitely worth asking.
Perhaps... it was also a bit much for a feat even so.
In any event, the feat's much more balanced now, and while the Sisterhood doesn't approve of it being taught to non-members, it happens.
Both very true.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For people playing along at home:
Original version
The Goblinblood wars left swathes of Isgeri orphans. The ensuing years of unchecked bandit raids only further swelled the number of unwanted homeless. Tragically, the only institution to respond to the growing crisis was the church of Asmodeus. Cheliax’s House of Thrune installed a number of monasteries across the Isgeri countryside which collect, feed, and clothe orphaned children, all the while co-opting them into their dark fold.
The most prominent of these monasteries is the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes, colloquially referred to as the Devil Nuns. The sisterhood baptizes the rescued youths with unholy water and drills them from an early age in the basics of Hamatulatsu, an exotic martial art pattered on the study of barbed devils. Upon reaching adulthood, young female orphans often aspire to join the ranks of the sisterhood themselves, while males often seek admission to an order of Hellknights or find their calling in the priesthood of Asmodeus.
You have mastered a deadly fighting form inspired by the varying attacks of the barbed devil. You seek not just to defeat or kill your opponent but to first cripple him with memorable, scarring pain.
Prerequisites: Intimidate 5 ranks, Improved Unarmed Attack, female, raised by the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes.
Benefit: Each round, your unarmed attacks may be treated as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. You decide which type of damage you deal, but you may only choose one type at a time. In addition, for each consecutive round that you change the type of damage selected from the previous round, the threat range of your unarmed attack increases by 1, to a maximum of 16–20/x2 after 5 rounds. If you succeed in confirming a critical hit, the threat range of your attacks resets to normal and you may further make an opposed Intimidate check as an immediate action to attempt to demoralize your opponent and render him shaken.
Special: Hamatulatsu may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at 2nd level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites. Hamatulatsu does not stack with Improved Critical.
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Current Version
The most prominent of these monasteries is the Sisters of the Golden Erinyes. The sisterhood baptizes rescued youths with unholy water and drills them from an early age in the basics of infernal politics and philosophies, eventually extending their training to exotic, difficult-to-master martial arts. Upon reaching adulthood, female orphans often aspire to join the ranks of the sisterhood itself, while males tend to either seek admission to an order of Hellknights or find their calling in the priesthood of Asmodeus.
You have mastered a deadly fighting form inspired by the hideous attacks of the barbed devil.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike).
Benefit: Your unarmed attacks can deal either bludgeoning or piercing damage. You decide which type of damage you deal whenever you attack a foe, but you may only choose one type at a time. If you critically hit a foe with your unarmed strike while doing piercing damage, the additional pain caused by the strike causes the foe to become sickened for 1 round (or staggered for 1 round if the target is already sickened). Multiple critical hits in a round against a single foe do not increase the duration of the sickened or staggered condition.
Special: Hamatulatsu may be selected as a substitute bonus feat at 6th level by a monk even if the monk does not otherwise meet the prerequisites. This fighting style is normally only taught to women of the Sisterhood of the Golden Erinyes.
Could someone walk me through the reasons that the first version is "a bit much"? The improved critical builds slowly over several rounds of combat --the fight is likely to be over for the rest of the party, after your monk has slapped someone upside the head with unarmed strike for four or five rounds-- and the Intimidate check to render a foe shaken is less powerful than sickening or staggering the foe.
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IMO, the part that most makes it "a bit much" is that a 2nd-level monk can bypass the pre-reqs. And even those pre-reqs were easily met at 2nd-level.
It is a pretty hefty feat regardless.
Compared to the new version:
Slashing as well as B/P
Stacking Improved Critical instead of Crit for Sickened for 1 round
Free Intimidate check on a crit for Shaken (duration?)
2nd level monk gets it vs 6th level
5 ranks in Intimidate (then had by 2nd level) vs Weapon Focus
So either the old feat was a bit much, or the new one is pretty wimpy. It looks to me like the new one is comparable with other feats, so....
Could someone walk me through the reasons that the first version is "a bit much"? The improved critical builds slowly over several rounds of combat --the fight is likely to be over for the rest of the party, after your monk has slapped someone upside the head with unarmed strike for four or five rounds-- and the Intimidate check to render a foe shaken is less powerful than sickening or staggering the foe.
My two cents: If you assume that a battle lasts three rounds, it's worthless on round 1, as good as Improved Critical on round 2 and better than Improved Critical on round 3; on average, it's about as good as Improved Critical. And Improved Critical isn't available until level 8 at the earliest (instead of level 2). Plus you get some other goodies on top of it.
Now, you could argue that Improved Critical shouldn't be restricted to level 8+, of course.
A bonus two cents' worth: The old version was fiddly and annoying and I'm glad it's gone.
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You're missing that improved crit: unarmed strike isn't really the most common use of the feat, rather its for weapons with a critical much better than 20/x2.
The free intimidate check on a crit is meh at best, you have feats out there that let you make one with each attack while power attacking. Not to mention that there are feats out there for fighters to stack much better extras on crits (either save against or CMD against). Finish with CHA not exactly being in a monk's top 5 stat scores...
Honestly I think that the new version of the feat is the stronger version.
-James
I can't completely agree with that.
The old feat allowed for fists of fury to become keen scimitars for one attack. Yes you can get the feat at low levels but at high levels the thing really pays off. The more attacks you have the more chance you are going to roll a crit and if every round you are attacking four or five times... then all of a sudden you are using this feat a lot. But I don't disagree that by that time a lot of combats don't really see much more than three rounds of combat. The above versus the new feat which allows a character to throwing piercing unarmed attacks which only crit on a natural 20. It is not as often that the piercing attack is the thing that is making the difference.
But I don't really disagree with James either. If you take the new feat and buddy it up (as I think it was meant to do) with the Hamatu Impaling feats from the Cheliax book - then this feat is a gateway to a kind of "grab." It is an expensive gateway as in it requires a high BAB and a bunch of feats to do well, and there is still a negative to the CMB attempt), and by that level chances are the CMD's are too high to just willy-nilly grab opponents... but the visuals of having a monk who can impale baddies with her fist are worth the suboptimal spending of feats. And when that combo works it works well b/c it allows a monk (or I guess anyone really) to suddenly make a grapple attack on an AoO which is very useful... or you could just have a cestus and not spend a feat on Hamatulatsu. And thus my argument as to why the new feat should be allowed for organized play. In the end it is mostly frivolous (given the limited feats monks get) and mostly attractive to those who prioritize role-playing over power-gaming.
But what is really interesting about the older feat is that it was designed for 3.5. In 3.5 this is an outlandishly powerful feat, but that's b/c there were so many way to get unarmed combat damage to outlandish levels. The most powerful character I ever made in 3.5 was an unarmed fighter - and that was mostly a RAW character (Monk 2, Barbarian 2, Fighter 1, Fist of the Forest 3, Bear Warrior 1, Warshaper 4) with all the TWF, ImTWF, & GreaterTWF and ImpNA. The damage went from d6 -> d10 b/c of Fist of the Forest. From d10 -> 2d8 b/c of ImNA -> 3d8 from Warshaper during rages/bear form attacks. I readily admit that First of the Forest is a bit much but that was part of the point of the character - to demonstrate why the class was way too much.
Be well.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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...The most powerful character I ever made in 3.5 was an unarmed fighter - and that was mostly a RAW character (Monk 2, Barbarian 2, Fighter 1, Fist of the Forest 3, Bear Warrior 1, Warshaper 4) with all the TWF, ImTWF, & GreaterTWF and ImpNA....
What alignment is a character with levels in both Monk and Barbarian?
...The most powerful character I ever made in 3.5 was an unarmed fighter - and that was mostly a RAW character (Monk 2, Barbarian 2, Fighter 1, Fist of the Forest 3, Bear Warrior 1, Warshaper 4) with all the TWF, ImTWF, & GreaterTWF and ImpNA....What alignment is a character with levels in both Monk and Barbarian?
Whichever one they took second? Either Lawful or not, depending on whether it was Monk then Barbarian or Barbarian then Monk.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I suppose my implied question is: if you're trying to create a character who's seriously over-tweaking the unarmed combat rules, why shift your barbarian PC to lawful and lose the ability to rage?
Although you might take levels in monk, then become non-lawful. Even under the 3.5 rules, the character retains all monk abilities.
Although you might take levels in monk, then become non-lawful. Even under the 3.5 rules, the character retains all monk abilities.This is how all monk/barbarians I've seen do it.
You know That gives me a great idea for a character.. Starts off drunken ki monk, but gets a little bit wild switching into raging drunkard barbarian.
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Sorry to take so long to reply.
I initially designed this character to be a wild-man and unfortunately if you want a character that can fight without armor and weapons you HAVE to take monk. There is no easier way - and it's not too hard to design a character with a nice wisdom. So I started him out as Lawful and then when to Neutral.