11th Level Monk + Enlarge Person + Strong Jaw + Brass Knuckles =?

[thepuregamer]

Majuba wrote:

Of course, the brokenness really isn't at the +20 level. It's at the +4 knuckles with a flaming, shocking, vicious amulet, getting +7 in abilities (normally 98k) for only 77k, when it's supposed to be *MORE* expensive for unarmed strike.

Ridiculous to let them stack.

Well monks are inherently weaker, so balance isn't actually destroyed by this power up.

[MaxBarton]

Majuba wrote:

thepuregamer wrote:

What confuses me is how this allows us to bypass the +10 rule for magical weapons?

Very very good question - they wouldn't bypass the +10 rule (as not even bows stacking bypass that rule). You can't count the Amulet of Might Fists separate from the Brass Knuckles for this, if you're going to count them together for anything else.

Of course, the brokenness really isn't at the +20 level. It's at the +4 knuckles with a flaming, shocking, vicious amulet, getting +7 in abilities (normally 98k) for only 77k, when it's supposed to be *MORE* expensive for unarmed strike.

Ridiculous to let them stack.

All the rules state is that a weapon cannot have a bonus higher than +10, it does not however state that an attack cannot have a bonus above +10 which is the case. The Brass Knuckles are the only thing being limited by the +10.

The limitation on bows and ammunition doesn't reflect the situation because they're talking about bonuses that don't stack period. They don't stack because enhancement bonuses don't stack with each other.

I think the current proposal is simply a corner case that isn't covered.

[Galnörag]

Isn't the perfect analog between Weapon / Amulet the same as Magic Armour and Bracers of Armour?

Quote:

racers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

The same seems to rationally apply if your augmenting your unarmed attack weapon via brass knuckles or an amulet the greater of the two bonuses should supersede the lesser.

[thepuregamer]

Galnörag wrote:

Isn't the perfect analog between Weapon / Amulet the same as Magic Armour and Bracers of Armour?

Quote:

racers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

The same seems to rationally apply if your augmenting your unarmed attack weapon via brass knuckles or an amulet the greater of the two bonuses should supersede the lesser.

That is great and all, and would make for a good errata if they made that change, but there are quite a few reasons bracers of armor and magical armor do not work together.

1. Armor bonuses do not stack with each other(you mention this).

2. And the bracers specifically state that the lower source of armor bonus ceases to function. (you mention this)

The situation with the amulet and a magical weapon is that 1,
he is not trying to stack together 2 +5 enhancement bonuses. He is getting a +5 enhancement bonus and then +15 worth of different weapon abilities.

And there is no text for the amulet that says they deactivate.

I do not think he was talking about how to solve the problem. But whether it was raw.

maxbarton wrote:

Strong Jaw should work because it's modifying your unarmed damage size, much like enlarge person would. In fact the two abilities stack.

once again the reason strong jaw would not stack here is because strong jaw only applies when you make an attack with a natural weapon(or an unarmed strike if you are a monk).

Because of the wording of the spell, the monk unarmed strike damage is not always boosted, just when you are making an unarmed strike.

Thus you cannot get the strong jaw boost to increase your brass knuckle damage. This is what I was told when I had the same idea for a zen archer in regards to getting the damage with my bow(using ki).

[Belafon]

I just realized the one thing that keeps this from working. It's the same thing that applies to the temple sword. From the item description, monks are proficient with Brass Knuckles. However from the Flurry of Blows description:

PRD wrote:

When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)...

Monks are proficient with Brass Knuckles but it's not listed as a "special" monk weapon, so you can't flurry with it. Note that monks are proficient with dagger, handaxe, and shortsword among other things but can't flurry with them.

So yes, your cheese Mighty Fists and Brass Knuckles cheese might stack, but you couldn't flurry. It's cheesy but inefficient.

[HaraldKlak]

Belafon wrote:

I just realized the one thing that keeps this from working. It's the same thing that applies to the temple sword. From the item description, monks are proficient with Brass Knuckles. However from the Flurry of Blows description:

PRD wrote:

When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)...

Monks are proficient with Brass Knuckles but it's not listed as a "special" monk weapon, so you can't flurry with it. Note that monks are proficient with dagger, handaxe, and shortsword among other things but can't flurry with them.

So yes, your cheese Mighty Fists and Brass Knuckles cheese might stack, but you couldn't flurry. It's cheesy but inefficient.

This is incorrect.

Brass knuckles (as well as a temple sword) has the monk special quality, and as such is a monk weapon.

They are not listed explicitly, due to the very understandable reason that they didn't exist, when the core rules were written.

To provide some hard evidence, the special qualities under weapons rules, states:

Weapon rules wrote:

Special

...
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows.