Tomahawk
The tomahawk is a small hand axe favored by rangers, woodsmen, and settlers in wilderness areas. The tomahawk is balanced for throwing, has a razor-sharp blade, and the back of the blade doubles as a hammer. The hammer head is primarily designed for tool use -- if used as a weapon, it only does d4 damage, is not treated as a double weapon, and cannot be used when the tomahawk is thrown.
(Data after slash mark is for the hammer head)
Cost 10 gp
Dmg(S) 1d4/1d3
Dmg(M) 1d6/1d4
Critical x3/x2
Range 20 ft./--
Weight 3lbs.
Type S/B
Instead of merely bumping this, I thought I'd anticipate a couple of things that might come up:
1. Yes, the hammer head is nerfed and essentially useless in combat unless you're suddently facing a skeleton or something else vulnerable to blugeoning damage. It's fluff, mostly.
2. Yes, this is essentially paying extra gold for a throwing axe with the critical damage of a handaxe. That was the point. given that one minor bump in ability, I didn't see it meriting Exotic Weapon status, especially when comparedto a kukri, which is also considered martial. Now had I made it a battleaxe that can be thrown, that would definitely fall in the Exotic Weapon category IMO. Hmmm....
My only question is... why would anyone buy 'just' a throwing axe when it's only advantages are two GP less and one pound lighter? (and has a lower crit multiplier?)
Good point. On the other hand why would anyone buy a handaxe when its only advantages over a throwing axe are it's two GP less and has a higher crit range (but it's one pound heavier and can't be thrown)?
To expound further on that though: Setting aside for a moment my proposed weapon, I don't see the point in the throwing axe having a lower crit multiplier than the handaxe. Is it because of the added weight behind the head of the handaxe? At only 2/3 Lbs., that doesn't make sense to me, especially for slashing weapons (I could see it for piercing or bludgeoning weapons). Here's what I would recommend, and if done, my Tomahawk becomes just fluff description of an axe
Option 1:
Make the handaxe and throwing axe the same weapon, with the throwing axe's thrown range and cost, and the handaxe's crit muliplier and weight.
Option 2 (Better in my mind):
Give the throwing axe a x3 critical multiplier and slightly better range, and make the handaxe a Simple Weapon. This makes sense: The original handaxes used were just peasant's tools pressed into the fight, and didn't really evolve THAT much, while a throwing axe is carefully crafted to have the right balance for throwing. It also means the handaxe would still have a place in the game for non-martial characters, and I'd stat my Tomahawk up as a slightly pricier throwing axe with the funky hammerhead on it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My only question is... why would anyone buy 'just' a throwing axe when it's only advantages are two GP less and one pound lighter? (and has a lower crit multiplier?)Good point. On the other hand why would anyone buy a handaxe when its only advantages over a throwing axe are it's two GP less and has a higher crit range (but it's one pound heavier and can't be thrown)?
Well I look at the throwing axe vs your Tomahawk (always wondered, if it was invented in England, would it be a Thomashawk?)
I see, for two GP more you get:
In mechanical terms, it would seem to be an exotic weapon* using the Battle Axe/Dwarven War axe Long Sword/Bastard Sword Long Sword/Falcata history.
*
My only question is... why would anyone buy 'just' a throwing axe when it's only advantages are two GP less and one pound lighter? (and has a lower crit multiplier?)Good point. On the other hand why would anyone buy a handaxe when its only advantages over a throwing axe are it's two GP less and has a higher crit range (but it's one pound heavier and can't be thrown)?Well I look at the throwing axe vs your Tomahawk (always wondered, if it was invented in England, would it be a Thomashawk?)
I see, for two GP more you get:
over twice the range
the improved critical
the ability to switch to bludgeoning damage in melee In mechanical terms, it would seem to be an exotic weapon* using the Battle Axe/Dwarven War axe Long Sword/Bastard Sword Long Sword/Falcata history.
*** spoiler omitted **
Understood. On the other hand, all of the weapons you give as examples are at least one-handed weapons, mostly two-handed. The only light weapons listed as exotic are Monk's weapons, and have special abilities beyond just being exotic for the purpose of Monk Fluff (all but the Sai have trip, and the Sai gives you a +2 to Sunder). If the ability to switch damage on the Tomahawk is, in your mind, comparable to trip/buffing Sunder, I'd happily nerf it by adjusting the description to say that the hammer head is ONLY designed as a tool, and that using it as a bludgeoning weapon constitutes an improvised weapon.
Regarding the range, it's EXACTLY twice the range. And the improved crit ability -- look at a couple of other weapons that are light martial -- the starknife and the kukri. The starknife does less damage than the handaxe or throwing axe, but has a 20 ft. range and the x3 critical. The Kukri has an absolutely frightening critical range, and does as much damage - albeit without beigh throwable. Exotic?
At most, looking at other weapons available, if you ignore my later afterthought suggestions about the handaxe and throwing axe, the most I can see happening to address your concerns is making the Tomahawk One-Handed instead of light. That has an effect on its use by TWF's and Finesse fighters.
I would make it a martial weapon. I've only ever heard of trained warriors using such a weapon.
Also, why can't I throw it and hit someone with the hammer head end? Sounds like a perfectly plausible thing to do.
I would make it a martial weapon. I've only ever heard of trained warriors using such a weapon.
It *IS* a Martial weapon. I'm arguing against it being an EXOTIC weapon. The handaxe as it is written (no throwing), on the other hand, should be simple -- an axe was something almost every peasant had as a tool and was quite proficient in its use. A battle axe, slightly bigger and more specialized, I can see being martial. A throwning Axe, specially balanced for throwing, I can see as martial. My proposed tomahawk, definitely martial. but a handaxe? Simple.
Also, why can't I throw it and hit someone with the hammer head end? Sounds like a perfectly plausible thing to do.
Mechanically, the reason is to placate those who want it to be Exotic. From a fluff POV, the reasoning is that the weapon is balanced to be thrown blade-forward, and throwing it the other way makes it unbalanced an inaccurate.
Personally, I don't see the point in making it exotic by merit of being throwable. Any melee weapon that is exotic only to be throwable should ONLY be exotci when thrown, and noone with an ounce of sense will buy the feat for it -- they'll take Throw Anything instead.
As for making it exotic, I already presented my arguments against that. But you're right, it is martial, not simple.
Personally, I don't see the point in making it exotic by merit of being throwable. Any melee weapon that is exotic only to be throwable should ONLY be exotci when thrown, and noone with an ounce of sense will buy the feat for it -- they'll take Throw Anything instead.
and yet people still take exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, or dwarven waraxe... ;D
Wow. What a brain fart. I totally read the thread title as "New Light Simple Weapon." Strange.
and yet people still take exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, or dwarven waraxe... ;D
Don't ask me to defend those choices either.But look at the Core Rulebook list of exotic weapons -- the only ones with any range are in the ranged weapon category. Throwability does not make sense as a reason to make a weapon exotic.
Wow. What a brain fart. I totally read the thread title as "New Light Simple Weapon." Strange.
Jedi mind trick, most likely.
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One point. I have a tomahawk that I've taken on some government paid vacations. I would think a trained warrior could make a pretty nasty trip attack by hooking somebody's leg with the inner edge of the bottom blade. Just an idea, although I get annoyed with all the sea lawyer BS about game balance (like every weapon ever created was equal). Anyway, just an idea about how a tomahawk could actually get used.
BTW the "hammer" part is awesome for busting padlocks ;)
and yet people still take exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword, or dwarven waraxe... ;DDon't ask me to defend those choices either.But look at the Core Rulebook list of exotic weapons -- the only ones with any range are in the ranged weapon category. Throwability does not make sense as a reason to make a weapon exotic.
Meh -- depends on the weapon for me -- a weapon being able to be used as a ranged weapon without the usual penalties for doing so is within my tolerance for what I would accept out of an exotic weapon.
AND this particular weapon does more than that -- it has an alternate damage type and has better range than the throwing axe as well a better critical range.
The throwing axe is what we should be comparing this weapon too -- and it is better in at least three ways: Range, damage types, and critical multiplier. As such it falls squarely in the realm of an exotic weapon -- mechanically speaking.
Consider that there are several weapons in the various materials paizo has released that are exotic precisely for any one of these reasons (improved damage types, improved range, or improved critical). Now you did beef up the price which helps to some extent too... but I still wouldn't expect to see this as a martial weapon.
Finally I offer this from the PFSRD.ORG site as found in Dwarves of Galoria:
Which shares all of your weapons characteristics except range -- where the maul-axe is 10 feet instead of 20.
And there is one weapon that is exotic simply because you can throw it:
One point. I have a tomahawk that I've taken on some government paid vacations. I would think a trained warrior could make a pretty nasty trip attack by hooking somebody's leg with the inner edge of the bottom blade. Just an idea, although I get annoyed with all the sea lawyer BS about game balance (like every weapon ever created was equal). Anyway, just an idea about how a tomahawk could actually get used.
BTW the "hammer" part is awesome for busting padlocks ;)
First, let me preface my response by saying, thank you.
The point about tripping is a good one, though that would definitely bring it into the exotic weapon category.
As for the game balance issue, I don't think anyone's saying every weapon should be equal, we're saying that the more capable a weapon is, the better trained a warrior should have to be to wield it. The balance is between characters, not weapons.
Meh -- depends on the weapon for me -- a weapon being able to be used as a ranged weapon without the usual penalties for doing so is within my tolerance for what I would accept out of an exotic weapon.
So you'd advocate making the trident, starknife, light hammer, throwing axe, spear, shortspear, and even the dagger and club all exotic weapons? Those are all melee weapons that are "able to be used as a ranged weapon without the usual penalties for doing so".
AND this particular weapon does more than that -- it has an alternate damage type and has better range than the throwing axe as well a better critical range.The throwing axe is what we should be comparing this weapon too -- and it is better in at least three ways: Range, damage types, and critical multiplier. As such it falls squarely in the realm of an exotic weapon -- mechanically speaking.
Consider that there are several weapons in the various materials paizo has released that are exotic precisely for any one of these reasons (improved damage types, improved range, or improved critical). Now you did beef up the price which helps to some extent too... but I still wouldn't expect to see this as a martial weapon.
Finally I offer this from the PFSRD.ORG site as found in Dwarves of Galoria:
Which shares all of your weapons characteristics except range -- where the maul-axe is 10 feet instead of 20.
I believe I've addressed all of these concerns in previouscomments -- regarding both range and crit multiplier, I think that's more a problem with the throwing axe -- look at the range of other light martial throwable melee weapons, they all have a range of 20 ft., and the handaxe, which is more comparable to the throwing axe than anything, save for the throwability, has a crit multiplier of x3 -- why doesn't the throwing axe? As for the blunt head, go back and read, I've already conceded that point.
And there is one weapon that is exotic simply because you can throw it:
No, that's a SHIELD that is exotic because you can use it as a ranged weapon. give the throwing axe a bonus to your AC while yielding it and yeah, it's exotic worthy.
Part of what makes each of the weapons you listed what they are is the throwing characteristic -- and they are core. You've thrown me a "slippery slope" fallacy by the way -- just because some weapons should be exotic if the ability to use them as a thrown weapon is added on in no way means I think all weapons that have the ability to be used as a thrown weapon should be exotic.
I'm actually confused as to what you are arguing with me about.
We agree that this stuff can make weapons exotic then why can't adding in the ability to use a weapon as a thrown weapon be an exotic thing too?
After all the shield in question is normally a martial weapon -- add the throwing to it and now it's an exotic. Please note that once the shield is thrown then you don't gain the AC bonus (indeed without a feat using the shield as a weapon loses your bonus too). I agree that giving an AC bonus from an axe would make it an exotic weapon (there are several like this already actually) -- I'm just saying that depending on the weapon in question making it a thrown weapon can turn it into an exotic weapon.
Heck some exotic weapons are such for even less than that.
When i went and combined all the weapons from all the books in 2nd edition... I noticed how many weapons are really just the exact same thing as something else.
Different weapons all evolved for the same purpose, just in different cultures they look different.
tomahawk would be an excellent example of this.
Tomahawk IS a Throwing axe. In 2nd edition hand/throwing axes were the same thing... I actually hadn't even noticed yet that they split them in this system. But looking at them... there was no REASON to. They do the same damge, they do the same thing... one just has range. As you point out, the hammer end is mostly fluff and used as a tool, so that's irrelevant.
Something else to notice, Throwing Axe in Pathfinder is considered a one-handed melee weapon. NOT a ranged weapon. So like Daggers you can slash away with it and when your opponent starts to flee, whip it at his back.
I don't see anything here that requires 'tomahawk' to be a completely new weapon. Personally, I'd cut out the Hand ax again, and any kind of light one handed handaxe/tomahawk/hatchet would use the same stats.
As for trip... yes, you can trip with a tomahawk... but it's not really DESIGNED to do that. That's what the Combat manuever would be for. Unlike chains and whips and flails, I wouldn't give a hand axe a bonus to trips and kick it up to exotic.
No, I'm not throwing you a slippery slope argument. I'm pointing out specific examples to refute your earlier comment that "a weapon being able to be used as a ranged weapon without the usual penalties for doing so is within my tolerance for what I would accept out of an exotic weapon." If that's an acceptable criterion, on its own merit alone then all the weapons I mentioned would have to be exotic. Furthermore, While it's true that some exotic weapons aren't that much more powerful than their martial counterparts, there are plenty of examples of martial weapons that have ability enhancements that ARE that great, without being exotic. A dagger can do two different damage types, has an extended crit threat, and can be thrown -- not exotic. A longspear has brace and reach -- it's not exotic. A quarterstaff is a double weapon, usable by monks -- not exotic. Flails -- disarm, trip. heavy flails, guisarms, halberds, scythes (x4 critical modifier. FOUR.). All of them exotic, none of them Exotic.
And regarding the throwing shield, despite your splitting of hairs about it being lost when thrown (the same is true of ANY trhown weapon, is it not?), and it merely being a martial weapon that now can be thrown, I stand by my assertion -- the defensife quality of the shield PLUS throwability, yes, does bump it into exotic territory. The only exotic weapon you could find that is usable in both melee and thrown can also be used as a shield. You don't find that significant?
What I'm arguing with you about is whether the weapon I came up with is worthy of being designated as exotic by merit of its throwability. The increased crit multiplier and throwing range? That goes back to my argument that those should be applied to the throwing axe to begin with. But even if you don't go that route, if your concern is game mechanics and the comparison between the throwing axe and the tomahawk, I already proposed what I think is a pretty balanced solution -- keep the tomahawk's damake at 1d6, but make it a one-handed weapon instead of light. That gives the throwing axe an advantage over it by merit of being usable with Weapon Finesse and reduced penalties for TWF.
Look, my main purpose for arguing against making it exotic has to do with the list of exotic light weapons currently listed. All of the ones that are core, as well as the Dwarven Maul-Axe, have one thing in common -- fluff reasons for being exotic as well as mechanical (one is racial, the other are Monk weapons). when we're talking about light weapons, with their lesser damage (1d4 and 1d6, as opposed to the more common 1d8 at the one-handed level), it seems to take a LOT more mechanically to make them exotic. In fact, there are several weapons with only 1d6 damage but increased abilities that are balanced by being one-handed but remaining martial, not exotic -- specifically Rapiers, Scimitars, and heavy shields.
When i went and combined all the weapons from all the books in 2nd edition... I noticed how many weapons are really just the exact same thing as something else.
Different weapons all evolved for the same purpose, just in different cultures they look different.
tomahawk would be an excellent example of this.
Tomahawk IS a Throwing axe. In 2nd edition hand/throwing axes were the same thing... I actually hadn't even noticed yet that they split them in this system. But looking at them... there was no REASON to. They do the same damge, they do the same thing... one just has range. As you point out, the hammer end is mostly fluff and used as a tool, so that's irrelevant.
Something else to notice, Throwing Axe in Pathfinder is considered a one-handed melee weapon. NOT a ranged weapon. So like Daggers you can slash away with it and when your opponent starts to flee, whip it at his back.
I don't see anything here that requires 'tomahawk' to be a completely new weapon. Personally, I'd cut out the Hand ax again, and any kind of light one handed handaxe/tomahawk/hatchet would use the same stats.
As for trip... yes, you can trip with a tomahawk... but it's not really DESIGNED to do that. That's what the Combat manuever would be for. Unlike chains and whips and flails, I wouldn't give a hand axe a bonus to trips and kick it up to exotic.
+1... Almost.
Point of clarification, the throwing axe is light, not one-handed.
What I would do is almost what you just suggested, with a couple minor modifications (a lot of this I've already said): keep the unthrowable handaxe, but drop it to simple. Give the throwing axe the same crit range as the handaxe, and leave it where it is. I'm willing to drop the tomahawk back to a range of `10, though I question that range for the throwing axe to begin with, and either make the hammer back a tool-only fluff, or if it is a weapon face, move the tomahawk up to one-handed instead of light. And I agree, the trip technique that JoeCav describes sounds more like a fighter with improved trip, NOT a weapon specifically designed to have the trip feature.
+1... Almost.
Point of clarification, the throwing axe is light, not one-handed.
You are correct! my bad :)
My point was simply, I don't think you need to have hand ax, Throwing axe, AND Tomahawk.
There's nothing that you would want a tomahawk to do, that a Throwing axe doesn't already do.
It's the same weapon designed by two seperate cultures.
My point was simply, I don't think you need to have hand ax, Throwing axe, AND Tomahawk.There's nothing that you would want a tomahawk to do, that a Throwing axe doesn't already do.
It's the same weapon designed by two seperate cultures.
Umm... yes and no. I'm going to actually back off a bit from my defense of my own weapon design, and at least concede that it might be slightly different from thethrowing axe. As for handaxe vs. throwing axe, here's how I see it:
The handaxe is a peasant's hatchet, designed for chopping wood and pressed into service as a weapon. As such, I'm FOR keeping it in the game separate from the throwing axe, but I'd make it a simple weapon, not martial, so it can be wielded by non-martial characters.
The throwing axe is specially crafted by a weapons smith, and is carefully balanced to make it easier to wield ans well as to throw. I'd make this the light martial axe, and give it the x3 crit modifier currently assigned to the handaxe.
The Tomahawk historically was not originally designed by the Native American culture, ut wastheir adaptation of the axe introduced by Europeans (or at least, that's what I've read). It has had a hammer head added to the back of it. Now if you give that hammer head weapons stats, sure, I'd accept the argument to make it a one-handed weapon instead of light (one step less drastic than making it exotic, but still limiting it regardign finesse and TWF, just for mechanical balance). If you rule the hammer head isn't a weapon, well, then it's just fluff, and the Tomahawk IS the same weapon as the throwing axe.
As for the range I gave the tomahawk: I'm still debating whether I would scale it back to 10 ft. or scale the throwing axe up to 20 ft.