Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I just don't get it.
Why do we need to muddy the water of the rules by inventing a slightly modified term and call it a new term with a new meaning?
Why do we need to create new corner cases that make you wonder how other things work if we have these strange corner cases already present in the rules.
There is something elegant about the Core rules and even the APG rules. They all seem to somewhat make sense and they seem to mostly follow a predictable path.
This whole deal about guns attacking Touch AC and that doesn't mean "make a touch attack" is very frustrating to me.
I just can't help but think there must be a better way to handle this problem.
Maybe any of the following solutions are better:
- In the first range increment, if proficient, you gain a bonus to attack equal to half your BAB on any attacks.
- In the first range increment, the gun is assumed to have the Briliant energy property.
- In the first range increment, the target is assumed to be flatfoot.
I would recommend not only creating a new term, but having that term (and by extension, firearms) act as a brilliant energy weapon does (which isn't a touch attack either).
Solves the problem of the gunman dragon/tarrasque slayers at least.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Because Deadly Aim doesn't apply to touch attacks
There is no difference between adding a line for a new rules mechanic that will often be confused with touch attacks and adding a line saying this touch attack still works with Deadly Aim.
They are both specific rules changes.
To say nothing of the fact that touch attacks ignore damage reduction outright
Well, I remember that debate from another thread. Which isn't what you imply.
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks does not mean "ignore DR". If the touch attack deals HP damage, you apply DR as normal. But if the touch attack doesn't deal HP damage, you can't use DR to ignore the touch attack succeeded.
Because Deadly Aim doesn't apply to touch attacksThere is no difference between adding a line for a new rules mechanic that will often be confused with touch attacks and adding a line saying this touch attack still works with Deadly Aim.
They are both specific rules changes.
To say nothing of the fact that touch attacks ignore damage reduction outrightWell, I remember that debate from another thread. Which isn't what you imply.
Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks does not mean "ignore DR". If the touch attack deals HP damage, you apply DR as normal. But if the touch attack doesn't deal HP damage, you can't use DR to ignore the touch attack succeeded.
DR has never stopped magical damage in any edition of the game that I'm aware of (short of said magic effect specifically stating DR applied against it).
You are correct in that touch attacks are not enough, but damage/touch attack from a magical effect, such as most spells and supernatural abilities, generally is.
IMHO, they should say `ignores armor and natural armor bonuses`.
Shield Bonuses should still work because they are away from your body and have more lateral deflection capacity than armor `against your skin`. That also creates a mechanical justification for why it isn`t a Touch Attack, since Shield Bonuses DO apply. I think it also tones down the ability JUST the little bit that is needed.
...When I originally saw this thread, it reminded me of how badly touch attacks are defined in the first place.... There`re really only defined obliquely as things that target Touch AC, not really as an attack type in their own right... Which is doubly problematic in this situation, obviously.
Well the most ridiculous thing..
If the gun is this powerful that it can penetrate any armor, why does the bullet stop when it hits a creatures body within the first range increment?
Its understandable with magic, because, well its magic. You are targeting a specific creature with a ray and that's why it stops.
But this is suppose to be modeling armor penetration.. It makes me want to wear an armor made out of goblins. Living goblins. Cause each goblin could stop a bullet so long as they are still counted as a creature.
Try Grigs or normal sized bats. The need to be able to fit in your space without squeezing. Otherwise you won't be very combat effective. Also the goblins only afford you softcover which any good gunman can shoot around :P
Well the most ridiculous thing..
If the gun is this powerful that it can penetrate any armor, why does the bullet stop when it hits a creatures body within the first range increment?
fluid dynamics.
A bullet is great at penetrating one layer -- however exactly after that layer it has been so damaged and has lost so much energy that it loses most of the characteristics that allowed it to get through the layer.
This is why we don't get "over penetration" with modern ammunition -- the current bullets are designed to stop after they get through that first layer (or when they impact a semi-solid body).
Older bullets relied on sheer brute force to muscle through materials. They were not very good at this which is why bullet shape has changed over the years.
Well the most ridiculous thing..
If the gun is this powerful that it can penetrate any armor, why does the bullet stop when it hits a creatures body within the first range increment?
fluid dynamics.
A bullet is great at penetrating one layer -- however exactly after that layer it has been so damaged and has lost so much energy that it loses most of the characteristics that allowed it to get through the layer.
This is why we don't get "over penetration" with modern ammunition -- the current bullets are designed to stop after they get through that first layer (or when they impact a semi-solid body).
Older bullets relied on sheer brute force to muscle through materials. They were not very good at this which is why bullet shape has changed over the years.
Well we've got how many layers?
Deflection, Armor, Enhancement, Shield and natural armor. Only deflection effects the bullet, while 4 other layers do nothing.
With older armors, a suit of fullplate is very similar to kevlar. You have a hard outerplate and then the soft flexible chainmail, and then the quilted armor under that. (Or some other soft flexible matte)
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.
|
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.
And dragons don't exist, also. Not speaking about rapiers, which didn't were used along longswords since these two weapons were built to counter specific kinds of armors.
Suspension of disbelief, my friend. :)I admit I was sceptikal when I first read about guns and Touch AC, but after all I saw on the subject, I'm pretty sure these weapons are balanced. (Except Advanced firearms which right now are totally broken, blabla.)
Well we've got how many layers?Deflection, Armor, Enhancement, Shield and natural armor. Only deflection effects the bullet, while 4 other layers do nothing.
With older armors, a suit of fullplate is very similar to kevlar. You have a hard outerplate and then the soft flexible chainmail, and then the quilted armor under that. (Or some other soft flexible matte)
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.
Actually those aren't layers those are modifiers -- the body is the layer. If the attack misses it *misses* -- no layers hit. If it hits the target is hit -- not his defenses, which is why he takes the damage and not his defenses.
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.And dragons don't exist, also. Not speaking about rapiers, which didn't were used along longswords since these two weapons were built to counter specific kinds of armors.
Suspension of disbelief, my friend. :)
I admit I was sceptikal when I first read about guns and Touch AC, but after all I saw on the subject, I'm pretty sure these weapons are balanced. (Except Advanced firearms which right now are totally broken, blabla.)
I'm still very skeptical on being able to attack touch ac as much as you want in short range.
If I had a DM who was running these things.. I would start making armor out of living creatures.
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.And dragons don't exist, also. Not speaking about rapiers, which didn't were used along longswords since these two weapons were built to counter specific kinds of armors.
Suspension of disbelief, my friend. :)
I admit I was sceptikal when I first read about guns and Touch AC, but after all I saw on the subject, I'm pretty sure these weapons are balanced. (Except Advanced firearms which right now are totally broken, blabla.)I'm still very skeptical on being able to attack touch ac as much as you want in short range.
If I had a DM who was running these things.. I would start making armor out of living creatures.
The reason why is because air resistance is proportional to velocity squared, beyond the first range increment that becomes noticeable enough according to the rules.
|
In the first range increment, the gun is assumed to have the Briliant energy property. This would work except:
A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects.
with some minor modifications I am okay with that. Unintelligent undead... sure why not... may not reflect shotguns being a zombie's archenemy but what the heck...
constructs I can see ignoring bullets...
objects... depends upon the object I suppose.
BUT I like the concept behind this a LOT. Just needs tweaking.
Older bullets couldn't pierce through that.And dragons don't exist, also. Not speaking about rapiers, which didn't were used along longswords since these two weapons were built to counter specific kinds of armors.
Suspension of disbelief, my friend. :)
I admit I was sceptikal when I first read about guns and Touch AC, but after all I saw on the subject, I'm pretty sure these weapons are balanced. (Except Advanced firearms which right now are totally broken, blabla.)I'm still very skeptical on being able to attack touch ac as much as you want in short range.
If I had a DM who was running these things.. I would start making armor out of living creatures.
Trying to apply realism and/or logic to D&D/PF combat rules can only end with a headache. AC, hit points, and how various items interact with those are abstractions meant to create a fast-paced, "cinematic" combat environment, but their historical accuracy makes The Deadliest Warrior look like a real time machine.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
All of these solutions add extra calculations and rolls, slowing down the game even more.
There are currently 3 armors you could be going against, easily accessible on every character sheet. If a mechanic requires another one, it isn't a good mechanic.
I'm strongly opposed to the Touch AC issue for a number of reasons, but the additional half BAB to hit solves this issue without needing any calculation at the game table.
Fixed suggestions:
- In the first range increment, treat the gun as if it had the Brilliant Energy weapon property. The gun may harm undead, constructs or objects and is not considered a magical attack.
- In the first range increment, a Gunslinger or anyone with Ameature Gunslinger or anyone with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) may add half their BAB to all attacks with guns.
The first solution, uses an existing property that people will easily understand.
The second solution, models the difference between Touch AC and Normal AC closely.
I don't like solutions that ignore Natural Armor, as the majority of higher level monsters use Natural AC as the majority of AC. It essentially becomes a "don't roll a 1" attack against every creature in the book. Will O Wisp and Banshee have Touch AC 26, nothing has a higher Touch AC. This means that a moderately equipped 10th level Gunslinger is at "miss only on a natural 1" with a Gun.
I disagree on one note Kyle Linger:
Deadly Aim should have simply worked no matter what type of ranged attack you were using.
Deadly Aim simply isn't going to offer enough damage on spells to be game breaking, and spells of are such limited nature on damage already that it could have helped made them something to use more regularly.
Even if you take the EK knight route right now and allowed deadly aim to work on spells the best you are going to get from deadly aim is -5 to hit +10 on damage. On disintegrate that's not a big deal, and it still isn't a big deal on scorching ray.
A poor bab class would get a maximum of -3 to hit +6 to damage.
Well the most ridiculous thing..
If the gun is this powerful that it can penetrate any armor, why does the bullet stop when it hits a creatures body within the first range increment?
fluid dynamics.
A bullet is great at penetrating one layer -- however exactly after that layer it has been so damaged and has lost so much energy that it loses most of the characteristics that allowed it to get through the layer.
This is why we don't get "over penetration" with modern ammunition -- the current bullets are designed to stop after they get through that first layer (or when they impact a semi-solid body).
Older bullets relied on sheer brute force to muscle through materials. They were not very good at this which is why bullet shape has changed over the years.
Depends on the gun and the bullet. A 7.62 mm round from AK47 will blow right through you assuming it doesn't hit a a big bone. Even a smaller bone might deflect it into your body or out depending on the angle.
Depends on the gun and the bullet. A 7.62 mm round from AK47 will blow right through you assuming it doesn't hit a a big bone. Even a smaller bone might deflect it into your body or out depending on the angle.
Yes over penetration -- like I mentioned -- is a problem with modern ammunition -- and even with over penetration the bullet's flight pattern and shape take a bit of a beating while passing through which tends to shorten the flight of the projectile and lessen the likelihood that it will continue to pass through more objects.