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I'm playing a Druid with a Tiger animal companion, and I'm hoping to make him into a grappling machine. With Aspect of the Bear and Bull's Strength, you can easily get +4 to CMB rolls at level 3, and you can toss feats into Weapon Focus (Grapple) in there. With the feat and a Tiger's BAB/STR bonus, he's at a +8 at level 2. At 7th level, he gets +8 STR, grab, and pounce, and if I can buff his grappling well enough it should be pretty awesome.
I'm thinking of what my Druid will be doing while my Tiger is tumbling around, rending. She can poke at the enemy with a spear, taking advantage of the -4 DEX grappled creatures get, or she can join in the tumble herself.
I have some questions about grapples with more than two characters involved.
RAW:
"Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check."
Questions:
1. Does using Aid Another to help a character grapple someone provoke an attack of opportunity?
I am inclined to say yes, based on this: "If you aid someone performing an action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity, then the act of aiding another provokes an attack of opportunity as well." Without Improved Grapple, you provoke, so I would imagine this provokes.
However, grappled creatures do not threaten / cannot take AoOs. So I guess it only provokes an AoO if you Aid Another on the initial grapple attempt. Helping once the grapple is established would provoke none.
2. Does using Aid Another give a character the grappled condition?
I cannot see anything, RAW, that states this, but it makes logical sense. To help someone grapple, you should be in the grapple, right?
But aiding Another in combat, you don't actually attack. You "distract or interfere with an opponent". What this means is up to GMs. Could aiding another in a grapple be as simple as trying to kick out the opposing grappler's leg, leaving the helper out of the grapple?
Does my Druid have to expose herself (-4 DEX) and lose her AoOs if she helps the tiger grapple?
3. Can you trip someone in a grapple?
This is pretty devious. A person with the grappled condition has a -4 DEX, and a -2 to "combat maneuver checks". Does that -2 apply to CMD as well? Debatable. If it does, the character has a total of -4 to his CMD (if not, then it's only a -2), and does not threaten. This means you are free to disarm, trip, steal, whatever, without an AoO, and are more likely to succeed than normal.
What happens when you trip someone in a grapple? They are knocked prone, but they're "attached" to the other grappler. Does the other grappler fall prone as well? Are they still grappling on the floor? Or would this work more like a pin, where the tripped character gains the pinned condition, and the other grappler gains control?
These wickets are awfully sticky, but let's see if I can't clean them up a bit for you.
1:
Yes. You cited the rules response.
Raw Wrote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature,
trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4
penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty
on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except
those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition,
grappled creatures
can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast
a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s
CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled
creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from
the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as
hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If
a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or
other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD
to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe,
hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved
Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple
a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target
of your maneuver.
Relevent text in bold.
The grappled opponent cannot make the attack of opportunity, because he is grappled.
2.
While I would and have ruled "Yes" due to common sense, RAW is no. Assisters are not 'grappled'.
3.
Yes. Nothing prevents you from knocking down the guy who is grappled, and remember that New Grapple is not like Old Grapple. In Pathfinder, the Grappled condition is just "I have him by the sleeve, scruff, neck, etc." It's a single handed hold. 'Pinned' is the greco-roman/full-nelson style grappling we're familiar with.
In modern martial arts, knocking down an opponent with a one-handed hold is often accomplished in the same maneuver. In my own style of Shuri-Ryu, it's actually a primary method of opponent control. An ally accomplishing the same objective is just as effective and just as valid. Prone and Grappled are by no means exclusive conditions.
Suggestion: We house-rule that you can knock an opponent prone as a successful grapple check after the initial grapple. It might be a valid and useful addition to the maneuver. 'Bulling' someone to the ground before pinning them is as common a tactic as attempting a more complex hold without mat-fighting.
I wasn't entirely clear on #3. I guess the rules don't state that you can trip someone you're grappling with, and I like the solution that was proposed. However, I was thinking more like...
4. Can someone not in the grapple trip someone in a grapple?
If I'm adjacent to my barbarian buddy who is grappling a wizard, can I try to trip the Wizard? The Wizard wouldn't get an AoO, and would take a -2 (or -4) to his CMD.
If I succeeded, he would fall prone. What about my barbarian buddy? Assuming he's the "controller", he can release the grapple as a Free Action, but not an Immediate one (on my turn). Does he also fall prone? Or is he hunched over, grappling with someone who fell on their butt?
I wasn't entirely clear on #3. I guess the rules don't state that you can trip someone you're grappling with, and I like the solution that was proposed. However, I was thinking more like...
4. Can someone not in the grapple trip someone in a grapple?
If I'm adjacent to my barbarian buddy who is grappling a wizard, can I try to trip the Wizard? The Wizard wouldn't get an AoO, and would take a -2 (or -4) to his CMD.
If I succeeded, he would fall prone. What about my barbarian buddy? Assuming he's the "controller", he can release the grapple as a Free Action, but not an Immediate one (on my turn). Does he also fall prone? Or is he hunched over, grappling with someone who fell on their butt?
You can trip from outside the grapple.
The barbarian would remain standing, while his grappled foe would be grappled and prone. This is not an uncommon situation in a fight, and is not only perfectly legal RAW but perfectly believable. You are not hugging them and diving to the ground because they do; you are gripping them. Maybe you have them in an arm hold while standing, and they're lying on their back/face while you're applying pressure as they attempt to wiggle or force themselves free.
Likewise, tripping someone grappled should not trip everyone else grappling, as that's just some very, very strange domino effect that makes 0% sense. :O
Such techniques are similar to this hapkido grab to ground throw except you basically wouldn't release the arm when you throw, and would instead continue to limit their movement while on the ground; restricting their range of motion while also making them vulnerable to kicks, sword strikes, or further grappling attacks.
In other words, they would have the grappled and prone conditions.
Also, someone can have the pinned and prone condition, as the guy pinning them can still react more fluidly to outside influence, while the guy on the ground is both immobilized and down.
That's pretty neat. If the guy is grappled, he'll take the penalty to his CMD, and won't get an AoO on my Trip Attempt.
Then, if I succeed, he's prone, and takes a -4 to AC, on top of the -2 (from the -4 DEX from grappled).
Then next round, when the barbarian grapples to maintain, he has a +5 (by virtue of being the controlling grappler), and his opponent has a -6. From there, Pinning should be a joke.
Once Pinned, the character loses his DEX entirely, and takes a -4 AC.
Does Pinned assume the character is Prone? The penalty is the same (-4 to AC), so maybe? I assume you can pin a person against a wall, or whatever.
If you break a pin, do you have to stand up? If not, do Pinned and Prone conditions stack? Pinned explicitly says it does not stack with Grappled, but what about Prone?
Someone who was Pinned and Prone would lose their DEX, and have a -8 to AC/CMD. Nasty.