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Taah-daah. We have found your missing 10 gp.Except that there's nothing to suggest that the guy 'practicing his Craft' doesn't have to pay living expenses, whilst the guy making stuff does. Everyone has to pay living expenses... if that optional rule is used at all... no-one gets them 'free'.
It is all about the definition of "practice your trade", for me it mean a guy spending his day at is work and using that money to keep his shop in good repair, purchasing or making new tools when needed, paying for food and bed and so on.
It is aimed at NPC, not at PC. A simply rule to know what they could stash away if they were working regularly.
Remove the "Need to have same feat" thing and it becomes much better IMO. One is a dedicated crafter, one is an assistant when you have downtime. Every caster likely wants to get Scribe Scroll at least at some point, so the "know an item creation feat" requirement is not so bad.
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It is aimed at NPC, not at PC. A simply rule to know what they could stash away if they were working regularly.
I'd think that the 'ca$h per week' Skills / rules are actually aimed at PCs, rather than NPCs - as a simple way to judge how much ca$h they generate if they happen to try to generate ca$h over a period of downtime. I.e. the DM say, 'six months later...' and you know how much more gold you've earnt... and can seperately choose your lifestyle level for those six months by paying the appropriate cost of living.
NPCs would tend to have ca$h reserves and lifestyle based on story / role requirements... how many NPC nobles do you see stated-up with 'Profession: noble' for example? NPCs get to have whatever money and lifestyle the DM and story need them to have. The GP per week Skills can be a good guideline for the lifestyle certain types of NPCs may lead, but for them it's only a guideline, for PCs trying to generate income its more of a rule (although, at the end of the day, all the rules are 'guidelines' in each person's game).
The limiting factor here is opportunity...
Sure... but again, it's the level of difference which is the issue. If Crafters make 10x or 70x the gold which other Professionals make, then you have a very different game world than the baseline... for a start, the Crafting guilds are in charge... ;)
It was my impression that this feat was made for magic item crafting (since it has an item creation feat as a prerequisite) and that the only benefit you get for mundane crafting is the +2 skill bonus.
Not so - the doubled GP value of items Crafted per day applies equally to mundane items.
The Item Creation Feat prerequisite is, I guess, there for two reasons - one: so that this is one Feat and not two (Mundane Cooperative Crafting + Magical Cooperative Crafting); and two: to limit access to the Feat to only the very best 'muggle' Crafters (since the earliest you could take the Feat is: Master Craftsman at level 5, an Item Creation Feat at level 7, and Cooperative Crafting at level 9).
Rather than a 'stinky Feat', I'd suggest that Cooperative Crafting is a 'plugging the holes Feat' - that is to say, with the doubling GP value it makes a combined effort for Crafting worthwhile, whilst the mere +2 Aid Another bonus normally available is somewhat pointless if you can already hit the target DC with ease (only nudging up your total Skill bonus, and the GP amount you Craft, by a small amount).
There are several possible good uses for the Cooperative Crafting Feat:
A PC caster can take it even at level 1 (with the right prerequisites), which means they can be a great assistance to the local swordsmith or whatever when it comes to quickly Crafting mundane stuff.
A level 9+ NPC 'master craftsman' with this Feat, and the associated Item Creation Feat, can be a go-to guy for PCs wanting to make magic items. Want to make some magical weapons or armour? Visit the master craftsman, pay for his time and assistance, and halve the time it takes you!
PC groups who end up with more than one 'item crafter' character can wring the best out of those characters, instead of forcing them to work on seperate projects all the time.
Top-level NPCs Crafter guilds have a good excuse to be able to churn out items faster than the rules would otherwise allow them to do.
Quote:
It was my impression that this feat was made for magic item crafting (since it has an item creation feat as a prerequisite) and that the only benefit you get for mundane crafting is the +2 skill bonus.
Not so - the doubled GP value of items Crafted per day applies equally to mundane items.
The Item Creation Feat prerequisite is, I guess, there for two reasons - one: so that this is one Feat and not two (Mundane Cooperative Crafting + Magical Cooperative Crafting); and two: to limit access to the Feat to only the very best 'muggle' Crafters (since the earliest you could take the Feat is: Master Craftsman at level 5, an Item Creation Feat at level 7, and Cooperative Crafting at level 9).
Rather than a 'stinky Feat', I'd suggest that Cooperative Crafting is a 'plugging the holes Feat' - that is to say, with the doubling GP value it makes a combined effort for Crafting worthwhile, whilst the mere +2 Aid Another bonus normally available is somewhat pointless if you can already hit the target DC with ease (only nudging up your total Skill bonus, and the GP amount you Craft, by a small amount).
There are several possible good uses for the Cooperative Crafting Feat:
A PC caster can take it even at level 1 (with the right prerequisites), which means they can be a great assistance to the local swordsmith or whatever when it comes to quickly Crafting mundane stuff.
A level 9+ NPC 'master craftsman' with this Feat, and the associated Item Creation Feat, can be a go-to guy for PCs wanting to make magic items. Want to make some magical weapons or armour? Visit the master craftsman, pay for his time and assistance, and halve the time it takes you!
PC groups who end up with more than one 'item crafter' character can wring the best out of those characters, instead of forcing them to work on seperate projects all the time.
Top-level NPCs Crafter guilds have a good excuse to be able to churn out items faster than the rules would otherwise allow them to do.
Ok I am new to the 3.x system so the crafting skills/feats are still confusing to me. Could you break down the math so I could follow what you mean?
My problem with believing that the doubling factor applies to mundane crafting is that it says "your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day" when mundane crafting is generally done by the week, not by the day (whereas magical crafting is always done by the day). There's a small disconnect there.
My problem with believing that the doubling factor applies to mundane crafting is that it says "your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day" when mundane crafting is generally done by the week, not by the day (whereas magical crafting is always done by the day). There's a small disconnect there.
Its a very tiny problem, and i believe you can do daily checks if you want.
My problem with believing that the doubling factor applies to mundane crafting is that it says "your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day" when mundane crafting is generally done by the week, not by the day (whereas magical crafting is always done by the day). There's a small disconnect there.Its a very tiny problem, and i believe you can do daily checks if you want.
Yeah, it is a bit nitpicky. I also knew you could craft by the day (hence why I said "generally done"), but that's not typically the default.
So let me see if I'm understanding this correctly:
I want to make a belt of giant strength +6 for 16,000gp. Since the market price is 32,000gp, it would normally take me 32 days to craft (or one month).
If I'm willing to add +5 to the DC, I can work twice as fast and get it done in 16 days.
With Cooperative Crafting and an assistant with the same skill/magic item crafting feat, I can also get it done in 16 days (without increasing the DC).
If I work with Coorperative Crafting, an assistant, AND rush the process (adding +5 to the DC) I can get it done in only 8 days.
Does that sound right to everyone?
Hm... or you can rush and craft one, and your assistant can rush and craft one and you can create 2 in 16 days...
Which nets the same amount as your "2 people working on 1 belt" trick.
It's smoke and mirrors -- you don't really gain any benefit because it will still take the same amount of people the same amount of time to make the same number of belts for any number of belts equal to the number of people (or higher).
It's only useful if you only want fewer magical items than you have people capable of crafting items -- which for players never happens.
I don't think the assertion that "it is useless" is entirely true Abraham.
Without the feat, there is no way you can enchant a magic item in 1/4 the time.
2 guys working in half the time not only take longer, they can't even get their first item out into the field as fast.
If you need the item sooner than later, or don't have a lot of crafting downtime, this feat can be a godsend.
Two intelligent people with ranks in Craft (alchemy), the Master Alchemist feat, and the Cooperative Crafting feat can churn out hundreds of doses of poison in short order.
I don't think the assertion that "it is useless" is entirely true Abraham.
Without the feat, there is no way you can enchant a magic item in 1/4 the time.
2 guys working in half the time not only take longer, they don't get an item out as fast.
If you need the item sooner than later, or don't have a lot of crafting downtime, this feat can be a godsend.
Two intelligent people with ranks in Craft (alchemy), the Master Alchemist feat, and the Cooperative Crafting feat can churn out hundreds of doses of poison in short order.
Meh again only if everyone agrees you all want this one item for one person to use.
Otherwise having 2 people rush and get done 2 items in half the normal time would give you two items in half the time of 1 item each.
So I have 2 people working at 1/2 time giving me 2 items or(italics this time!) I could have 2 people work rush in the normal time to give me 4 items.
While your 2 people work together at rush speeds getting 1 item done in 1/4 the time -- which means to get the same 4 items down as the two people above they would need... just as long.
All I'm saying is the feat simply allows you to, as my family puts it, "Have six of one and a half dozen of the other."
I don't think the assertion that "it is useless" is entirely true Abraham.
Without the feat, there is no way you can enchant a magic item in 1/4 the time.
2 guys working in half the time not only take longer, they don't get an item out as fast.
If you need the item sooner than later, or don't have a lot of crafting downtime, this feat can be a godsend.
Two intelligent people with ranks in Craft (alchemy), the Master Alchemist feat, and the Cooperative Crafting feat can churn out hundreds of doses of poison in short order.
Meh again only if everyone agrees you all want this one item for one person to use.
Otherwise having 2 people rush and get done 2 items in half the normal time would give you two items in half the time of 1 item each.
So I have 2 people working at 1/2 time giving me 2 items or(italics this time!) I could have 2 people work rush in the normal time to give me 4 items.
While your 2 people work together at rush speeds getting 1 item done in 1/4 the time -- which means to get the same 4 items down as the two people above they would need... just as long.
All I'm saying is the feat simply allows you to, as my family puts it, "Have six of one and a half dozen of the other."
I guess that's all true provided you are (1) mass producing magical items and (2) have the time available to make all of them.
As I said, when time is limited, this feat goes from useless to invaluable (i.e. - when a dragon is marauding across the county side, and you need a dragonlance ASAP to kill him).
Also, everyone in the party doesn't have to agree on the same item. There are numerous ways for a single player to utilize this feat: temporary spellcaster/artificer hirelings, self simulacrums, cohorts/followers from Leadership, etc.
Thanks for using italics more.
EDIT: Your two guys working independently may be able to craft just as many 4,000gp and 8,000gp items as my guys can in the 4-day period given to them, but neither one (or both) of your gentlemen can make a single 16,000gp item in the time given.
So 1/4th the time...
You'll just sit in your backroom with your helper crafting that 16,000 gp item for a month while the dragon marauds across the country time instead of four months?
Great! You'll have plenty of country left in a month... if someone else has killed your dragon by then I mean.
So 1/4th the time...
You'll just sit in your backroom with your helper crafting that 16,000 gp item for a month while the dragon marauds across the country time instead of four months?
Great! You'll have plenty of country left in a month... if someone else has killed your dragon by then I mean.
Huh? Try 4 days.
Are you referring to mundane crafting? It should only take 16 days to make a 16,000gp magic item (8 if you speed it up, or 4 if you speed it up and use Cooperative Crafting).
So 1/4th the time...
You'll just sit in your backroom with your helper crafting that 16,000 gp item for a month while the dragon marauds across the country time instead of four months?
Great! You'll have plenty of country left in a month... if someone else has killed your dragon by then I mean.
Huh? Try 4 days.
Are you referring to mundane crafting? It should only take 16 days to make a 16,000gp magic item (8 if you speed it up, or 4 if you speed it up and use Cooperative Crafting).
No, no just doing some really odd math -- I thought 2,000 gp per day and doubled the price instead of ---
you know in retrospect I'm not sure what I was doing to get a month for a 16k item. All the same 4 days is a lot of dragon attacks... if you are lucky and the dragon is slow and lacking an army (the spontaneous sort that just follow dragons around) then you might only lose about 2/3 of your kingdom.
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Ok I am new to the 3.x system so the crafting skills/feats are still confusing to me. Could you break down the math so I could follow what you mean?
I'm not exactly sure which maths you mean, but here goes...
For mundane stuff made with the Craft Skill you make (your Craft Skill check result) x (Craft Skill target DC) silver pieces worth of the item each week. Once you hit the item's base value (in silver pieces, with ten silver pieces being equal in value to one gold piece) the item is finished.
So, for example, if I want to make a longsword the Craft DC is 15 (from table 4-4 on page 93 of the Core Rulebook). If I have a Craft (weapons) Skill bonus of +10, and use the take 10 option on my weekly check (for a total check result of 20), I make (20 x 15 =)300sp worth of progress each week. A longsword's base cost is 15gp, or 150sp, which means that, working alone, I can make my longsword in three and a half days.
The Aid Another rules state that an assistant can make the same type of Skill check, Vs a DC of 10, and if successful can grant me a +2 bonus to my own check result. So my friend, with no ranks in Craft (weapons), but with no Intelligence penalty, helps me out (lifting and carrying, pumping the bellows for my forge, etc.), also takes 10 (and therefore hits the set DC 10 which all Aid Another attempts have), and grants me that +2 bonus. Instead of a total check result of 20 (which I got when working alone), I now have a total check result of 22 (thanks to the +2 bonus from my friend's help). That means I now make (22 x 15 =)330sp worth of progress a week, which means I make the longsword in 3.18 days, instead of 3.5 days (i.e. I shave about two and a half hours off the construction time, assuming an 8 hour working day).
If my friend happened to have ranks in Craft (weapons) and also had the Cooperative Crafting Feat, then I automatically get a +2 circumstance bonus to my check (no need for him to roll), and double the value of the progress I make. So that 330sp worth of progress per week becomes 660sp worth of progress, and I make the longsword in 1.59 days (about 1 day plus four and three quarters hours of work).
In essence, the existance of the Cooperative Crafting Feat allows things, both mundane and magical, to be made twice as fast as they normally would be.
As Mr Spalding points out, it's not a huge help if what I really want is two longswords, since my equally skilled friend (the one who qualified for the Cooperative Crafting feat) can probably knock out a longsword by himself as quickly as I can, so working independantly we can each make a longsword in 3.5 days, for a total of two swords, or can use the feat and help each other for pretty much the same result (two swords in half a week).
The advantage of the Cooperative Crafting feat is that often you want one item, but want it quickly. If, for example, you're dealing with large city-based guilds of craftsmen and custom-ordering things then the DM can safely assume that someone in the guild has the feat and, by paying enough coin, you can get your custom order finished twice as quickly as it'd otherwise take.
Magic items are even easier to work out than mundane crafting - it's a set 8 hours (one working day) required per 1,000gp value, or 4 hours per 1,000gp value if you work as fast as possible and take a +5 to the target DC.
So, assume you have a week of downtime in a large city with extensive guilds of craftsmen. You can normally get a magic item worth a maximum of 14,000gp custom made in that time (you can, of course, pay for different craftsmen to work on a lot of different items, but that's the normal maximum value of progress which can be made on any single item over a seven day period). With the existence of the Cooperative Crafting feat that maximum value of progress doubles, so you can now get a magic item worth up to 28,000gp made during your downtime - a significant difference.
a concise explanation
Ok I get it now.
And Masterwork would add time/cost to item. Correct?now it makes more sense to me.