Difficulty

[wraithstrike]

Luther wrote:

They aren't illusions, they're just magic missiles disguised as such. If they don't do damage due to a shield effect being up then just describe them as passing through the character's body, leaving a cold and unsettling feeling as it does so. Ultimately it does nothing but you can always give them reason to doubt or worry. sabedoriaclark gets the idea, it's just about showmanship. So what if your players can figure it out based on that little clue? It isn't perfect. If your players are the kind to overscrutinize every scrap of info in an effort to figure out the background mechanics when other groups would be focusing on the aesthetics then this approach is probably not the best for them.

My point was that as written tactics wise the players, would know that the ghost is not a real threat or think the DM was handing the fight over. I am not saying changing the description would not be cool, but it won't change the fact that some players resent being handed a fight.

If the DM says I feel cold, but it is not followed with a status affect or a save then I know out of character that nothing is going to happen. It is not about figuring out the background mechanics. It is about not being convinced. At the end of the day you either were in danger or you were not.

[wraithstrike]

Estrosiath wrote:

Take your discussion about that homosexual term to another thread, please. I just don't understand your need to make gigantic, off-topic posts.

Now, on to the issue at hand:
Depends on your group of players. I have played with many people. Some were good at playing their characters (as well as role-playing; they are not mutually exclusive), fighting as a team and generally being efficient. If I played the opponent as a "Lulz 1 missile per person because I am soooo random and crazy" kind of opponent, they would mop the floor with him.
On the other hand, I have also played with groups of players that were simply bad at all things mechanical: they were mostly there to listen to the story, so to speak, and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. In that case, you can play the opponent as the "random" guy.

The most challenging groups are the mixed ones: veterans with newbies. The vets will mop up the encounter on their own, and the newbies might feel frustrated that they hog the spotlight (it's happened, trust me). There, I really have no good advice to give you. If the newbies are receptive to learning, they will improve with time and advice and learn to enjoy the challenges. But not all do.

This I can agree with. If you want to scare characters I can use game mechanics. If I want to scare players I have to threaten an attachment they have to the gameworld. This is normally the PC or its possession. Send a rust monster against a party and the big melee guy runs off.

I want to have the players scared through the entire prison if I can.

[Luther]

wraithstrike wrote:

If the DM says I feel cold, but it is not followed with a status affect or a save then I know out of character that nothing is going to happen.

I can understand this. Whether one means to or not it is difficult to divorce oneself from that mode of thought. Then it seems one would have to fool the meta-think as well. The cut-and-dry nature of the effects (or non-effects) of magic missle might make this spell difficult but others shouldn't be, it just requires a bit more thought. Sufficient obfuscation may be achieved by requiring a concentration check (or a save, if you think you can get away with it and the result being meaningless, of course) along with the disguised effect to cast further doubt. Rules savvy players should know that not all spells or abilties have their effects immediately apparent.

In other things I may simply fool the meta-think by always rolling an opposed check (such as when someone makes an attempt at stealth) whether there is anyone making the opposed check or not. I often have them make certain will saves before the effect that would require it would make itself apparent, anything to always keep them guessing. If you can rock them off of the OOC assumptions they've come to learn and rely too much on then the effect should be achieved.

Still, this is only what I'm doing with my own group. I'm not saying it is a must with anyone else's. Some people don't like it, equating it to a DM fudging the dice but I think that sometimes some wool over the eyes is required.

Minor spoiler:

Considering the deceptive ideas behind the ghosts and Father Charlatan in particular I'd say the writer's had the same idea.

[ruemere]

Considering that

Spoiler:

TSM's main strength is its ability to use direct damage spells, why not allow the characters to gain temporary bonus hitpoints specifically for this encounter?

For example, why not have the lady guardian magically project herself and intercept all TSM's attacks, using her own hitpoints like a sponge?
(yes, she cannot do that, but perhaps that would be a power she gained after four of five chief evils were dealt with)

That way the characters, no matter who'd be attacked, would have 41 hitpoints assigned, yielding about 2 rounds of safety. And the lady V. would simply reappear a few days later, her heroic sacrifice being all the more poignant.

Regards,
Ruemere

[Max Mahem]

Well my group finally faced the Splatter Man, and things actually turned out fairly okay. We were semi spoiled going in (I had read the encounter, but kept my knowledge to myself, and let the other players dictate the action, rest of the group only new we were likely facing the BBEG, and in for a tough fight and nothing else). Due to some research we had done above ground we knew the likely location of the splatter man (we knew where he had been incarcerated, and had cleared out the rest of the dungeon). This was extra knowledge from the GM, because though the players could certainly happen across this data in several ways, it's never spelled out that the GM should give it to them.

The party consisted of 3 persons, a Dwarf Cleric (AC Tank), a Life Oracle (Skills, Channel, and 2HW), and a Bow Wielding Paladin/Bard, all level 4. All builds are about average, My character was the Paladin. Encounter went like this:

Encounter:

We approached through the secret entrance, and first encountered the Gray Ooze, who got the drop on us, but was put down in short order by the Paladin's bow. Spent a channel and a heal to recover from this, then buffed to the high heavens before entering Nevermore. Virtually all 2nd level spell slots were spent on buffs, though only a few ended up being significant, mainly Magic Circle Against Evil, and Hide from Undead.

Enter Nevermore. GM rules that Hide from Undead prevents the haunt from affecting us, but Splatterman makes his will save to see us. He had already summoned a couple dire rats, but Circle of Protection kept them away from us. Maybe a bit fishy he had the summons (a round/level spell) ready for us, but we were setting up w/ round a level buffs so I wouldn't complain).

Surprise Round: He cackled wildly, and surprised attacked us w/ his maximized Magic Missile hitting one of us with each (I think the GM messed up here and forgot a missile, but I'm not sure). Dwarf actually had Shield up which protected him. Splatter man ran then ran out of line of sight. Not sure how he could move cast move, but he's a ghost, so it seems plausible that he could be hidden out of sight when we enter.

1st Round: Paladin readies to interrupt spellcasting with her bow, Oracle heals us with a channel, Splatterman casts another spell out of sight (Summon Monster, and Dwarf Prepares to readies a spell to hit splatterman with (something that makes magic weapons deal full damage to ghost or something).

2nd Round: Paladin again readies to interrupt spellcasting, Oracle casts another buff, Splatterman appears and tries to cast a spell, but eats the Paladin's smite in the face, disrupting his spell. Paladin is an Undead slayer shooting the Undead Bane arrows, so this hurts a lot. But in retrospect, we forgot to subtract half damage from his being incorporeal, thinking the Undead Bane was the same as Ghost Touch, probably the most significant rule mistake we made, though maybe since smite allows you to ignore DR, it should ignore the incoperal reduction as well? Just a thought. An air-elemental moves up to attack the dwarf (neutral aligned so it can get through magic circle). Dwarf swings back and misses.

At this point our offensive actions remove hide from undead, triggering the haunt, however we largely saved against its effects (will saves are strong in our group) so it had no meaningful effects on the encounter. In retrospect, we probably should have lost hide from undead when we encountered the gray ooze, another mistake in our favor, though the Oracle may have had another casting of it.

3rd Round: Paladin again readies to interrupt spellcasting, Oracle channels to hurt the haunt/splatterman (who saves). Splatterman again tries to cast and eats another smiting arrow, disrupting him, then runs away. Air elemental hits the dwarf, who kills it in return.

4th Round: Paladin starts to Inspire courage, Oracle gets out splatter man's spell book and threatens with it, and the Dwarf squishes a rat. Splatterman does not appear this round (moving incorporeally up to the party I suppose).

5th Round: Paladin again readies to interrupt spellcasting, Oracle rips out a page of the spellbook. GM had hinted to us OOC that this might be effective, I personally didn't think we had enough IC knowledge to justify this action, but was overruled. Splatterman comes up out the ground and hits the Paladin for jawdropping damage (32 something IIRC), almost enough to drop her, but she saves. Another round of that and she will go down, save or no. GM did roll really good on the damage dice though. Dwarf squishes another rat.

6th Round: Oracle rips out another page and Paladin lays on hand herself and Smites Splatterman with her gauntlet. Splatterman goes down.

Final analysis. Fight was not that challenging, mainly due to smart tactics by the party (disrupting Splatterman's spellcasting), smart buffs (Magic Circle, Shield, and Hide from Undead were important), and party makeup. A Bow wielding Paladin (Undead Scourge even) is really Splattermans worse nightmare (my character, but in my defense I had decided to play that character before the book ever came out). Two more divine casters were just icing on the cake. I think the 3 level 4 players vs 4 level 3 characters is a wash. Though pretty much all rule mistakes went in our favor.

Damage output from the paladin in this case was overwhelming, though might have been 50% to high! With proper damage, the situation might have been slightly different, worst case scenario, Splatterman lasts an additional round, and might have been able to drop the Paladin (that corrupting touch is deadly), but would likely have been taken out (if with some difficulty) by the remaining two players. Though in general I think the damage output from the Paladin was overwhelming, and the paladin did have Ghost Touch arrow remaining (GM had a nice rule about magic ammunition not necessarily mulching). Smarter play by the Dwarf would have also changed things.

So in short two primary divine casters and a paladin are to much for Splatterman, if played intelligently. In fact the Lopper was much more challenging, but in that fight all the parties ability to heal made a much bigger difference. Still in both cases I could see how a party of a different makeup (less divine focused) could have a much harder time.

[wraithstrike]

Thanks for the post Max.

[Jon Kines]

Max Mahem wrote:

Well my group finally faced the Splatter Man, and things actually turned out fairly okay. We were semi spoiled going in (I had read the encounter, but kept my knowledge to myself, and let the other players dictate the action, rest of the group only new we were likely facing the BBEG, and in for a tough fight and nothing else). Due to some research we had done above ground we knew the likely location of the splatter man (we knew where he had been incarcerated, and had cleared out the rest of the dungeon). This was extra knowledge from the GM, because though the players could certainly happen across this data in several ways, it's never spelled out that the GM should give it to them.

The party consisted of 3 persons, a Dwarf Cleric (AC Tank), a Life Oracle (Skills, Channel, and 2HW), and a Bow Wielding Paladin/Bard, all level 4. All builds are about average, My character was the Paladin. Encounter went like this:

** spoiler omitted **...

The group I'm going to GM hasn't started yet, but upon reading over the module, I'm inclined to agree with you on the Lopper for a traditional party.

[Ross Byers]

I removed some unwelcome language and the ensuing discussion of it.

If you really want to talk about it, go to Off Topic (or Website Feedback, if you're specifically concerned about what is/should be acceptable on the Paizo messageboards.)

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