RPG Superstar 2013
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When people talk about the founding fathers and thier intentions for this country I know that because of my race and the race of my ancestors that I wasnt part of that plan.
Just came back to this thread, and I have to wonder, what race was not a part of the future plans of the Founding Fathers? Many in our nation's early history came to minister to those who traveled from abroad to start a new life. Certainly a number of early influential figures opposed slavery and sought to end the practice, at least as it was practiced by many in those days.
I think we give the wrong idea when we teach people that America isn't for everyone. The words AND actions of our founders speak differently. It might be easy to misunderstand or mischaracterize letters and votes from 2-300 years ago, but the US was predicated on opportunity to create prosperity for yourself and to worship frely, and no exceptions have ever been named, that I am aware of.
the US was predicated on opportunity to create prosperity for yourself and to worship freely, and no exceptions have ever been named, that I am aware of.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.Contrast that statement with these:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.
When people talk about the founding fathers and thier intentions for this country I know that because of my race and the race of my ancestors that I wasnt part of that plan.Just came back to this thread, and I have to wonder, what race was not a part of the future plans of the Founding Fathers? Many in our nation's early history came to minister to those who traveled from abroad to start a new life. Certainly a number of early influential figures opposed slavery and sought to end the practice, at least as it was practiced by many in those days.
I think we give the wrong idea when we teach people that America isn't for everyone. The words AND actions of our founders speak differently. It might be easy to misunderstand or mischaracterize letters and votes from 2-300 years ago, but the US was predicated on opportunity to create prosperity for yourself and to worship frely, and no exceptions have ever been named, that I am aware of.
except that the exceptions were very clearly mention of in the drafting of many of the letters and official documents you readily dismiss. Shinhakkider's post is very much correct in that regard. The end of slavery was hardly an idea that was readily accepted by the masses.
This thread. Again?
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.
Wow, I used to think Bush Sr. mostly had his head on straight. Not anymore.
This thread. Again?
You hereby have my permission to ignore it. ;)
This thread. Again?You hereby have my permission to ignore it. ;)
Thank you, I think I shall.
So is it a matter of how much an individual should sacrifice for the good of the community? How large should the community be and how much responsibility does it owe the individual?
So is it a matter of how much an individual should sacrifice for the good of the community? How large should the community be and how much responsibility does it owe the individual?
I have always been of the mind that it should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50- 50.
So is it a matter of how much an individual should sacrifice for the good of the community? How large should the community be and how much responsibility does it owe the individual?
The individual is a member of and, at least generally speaking, a product of the community. I'm not sure in that light that sacrifice is exactly the right word. Are you really sacrificing if you benefit too, or is it more an investment?
Of course the returns on that investment are often invisible because they're so ubiquitous. They're so thoroughly interwoven into our society that life without them is almost impossible to imagine. They're taken for granted. Then people ask why they're asked to sacrifice for something they "never" benefit from.
I suppose you could call it an investment. I think you bring up a good point, especially in the current political climate. It seems to me that a lot of people are saying that since they feel secure that they will never need certain services, they should not have to 'invest' in them. Screw the other guys. I got mine.
I suppose you could call it an investment. I think you bring up a good point, especially in the current political climate. It seems to me that a lot of people are saying that since they feel secure that they will never need certain services, they should not have to 'invest' in them. Screw the other guys. I got mine.
It works the other way too. Who says it's really yours? (Using the generic yours here, not the personal one.) We do not appear out of nowhere, but are the products of inheritances both strictly biological and broadly environmental. It's not a simple matter of everything anybody has being theirs without any possible claims or challenges by others. What one has might very well be compensation for what one has done, but nobody gets where they are on their own. We don't live our lives in a vacuum, we don't grow in a vacuum, and we certainly don't make our choices or pick our values in a vacuum. How we respond to challenges, setbacks, achievement, and all of that stuff has to do with us. But us is a product of others all the way back to the sperm and egg.
Uh oh, Sam. You are treading dangerously close to Eastern philosophy of interconnectedness. Soon you will start quoting Buddha or Laozi. ;)
Uh oh, Sam. You are treading dangerously close to Eastern philosophy of interconnectedness. Soon you will start quoting Buddha or Laozi. ;)
There's always a clergyman in the bushes, waiting to leap out and say "ah ha!"
:)
Suprise attack from the Cleric/Rogue for the win!
So, I just watched Milk, and I've got a question for the always-ready-with-appropriate-quotes-from-the-Founding-Fathers crowd. Did any of them ever have anything to say, one way or the other, about homosexuals?
Anything from Ben Franklin or John Adams's private correspondence from Paris? Any snark-filled comments denouncing Aaron Burr or Gouvrenour (sp?) Morris as a catamite-lover?
Just curious.
Some quick Google-fu...
A man in the Continental Army was tried for sodomy and discharged. "His Excellency the Commander in Chief approves the sentence and with Abhorrence and Detestation of such Infamous Crimes orders Lieutt. Enslin to be drummed out of Camp tomorrow morning by all the Drummers and Fifers in the Army never to return."
“George Washington, March 14, 1778, General Orders” (1778), The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799, from ed. John C. Fitzpatrick, The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources, 1745-1799, [On-line], URL: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit (gw110081)).
Thomas Jefferson advocated “dismemberment” as the penalty for homosexuality in his home state of Virginia, and even authored a bill to that effect.
(Jefferson, Thomas (1781), Notes on the State of Virginia, The Avalon Project at Yale Law School, [On-line], URL: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/jevifram.htm.)
So George Washington viewed it with "abhorrence and detestation," while Thomas Jefferson advocated dismemberment as a punishment.
Thomas Jefferson advocated “dismemberment” as the penalty for homosexuality in his home state of Virginia, and even authored a bill to that effect.
That was actually liberal for the time. (I know...) Jefferson wanted to reform the law and punish being gay with castration for men and boring a hole through the nose for women. The penalty on the books at the time, which remained in force because his attempt failed, was death.
Just a reminder that tomorrow is Samnell's First Annual Sodomathon!
For wickedness, for perversion, for science!
You know I am always game on hump day.
You know I am always game on hump day.
Down, you polymorphously perverse poodle, get down!
On the other hand...
Happy Sodomathon!
Down, you polymorphously perverse poodle, get down!
All you need is love...or a close, lusty approximation.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Wow, I used to think Bush Sr. mostly had his head on straight. Not anymore."I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.
I find myself unlikely to accept this quotation on face value. Maybe a joke? Maybe in need of some kind of context? The Bible says there is no God, and if you want to ellipse the phrase "just because x" I have told my wife I don't love her several times. You can find a quote where Reagan says he's outlawed Russia forever and palns to begin bombing, but that never happened.
I wonder where that quote is from, and I wonder whether I'll remember it enough to go looking for it tomorrow.
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Wow, I used to think Bush Sr. mostly had his head on straight. Not anymore."I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.I find myself unlikely to accept this quotation on face value. Maybe a joke? Maybe in need of some kind of context? The Bible says there is no God, and if you want to ellipse the phrase "just because x" I have told my wife I don't love her several times. You can find a quote where Reagan says he's outlawed Russia forever and palns to begin bombing, but that never happened.
I wonder where that quote is from, and I wonder whether I'll remember it enough to go looking for it tomorrow.
It never happened???Just listen.
On August 11, 1984, United States President Ronald Reagan, while running for re-election, was preparing to make his weekly Saturday address on National Public Radio. As a sound check prior to the address, Reagan made the following joke to the radio technicians:
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.
The joke was a parody of the opening line of that day's speech:
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you that today I signed legislation that will allow student religious groups to begin enjoying a right they've too long been denied — the freedom to meet in public high schools during nonschool hours, just as other student groups are allowed to do.
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Wow, I used to think Bush Sr. mostly had his head on straight. Not anymore."I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.I find myself unlikely to accept this quotation on face value. Maybe a joke? Maybe in need of some kind of context? The Bible says there is no God, and if you want to ellipse the phrase "just because x" I have told my wife I don't love her several times. You can find a quote where Reagan says he's outlawed Russia forever and palns to begin bombing, but that never happened.
I wonder where that quote is from, and I wonder whether I'll remember it enough to go looking for it tomorrow.
Robert Sherman was the only reporter to have "heard" Bush supposedly say this and the only person to have "reported" on it. Some groups and individuals report it as fact but it has never been substantiated even by other reporters there at the time doing interviews with the President at the same time. Yet it is taken as "proof" by many of discrimination. seems Dawkins even "reported" on it, in one of his books.
Patriotism is interesting in relation to religion. I haven't yet heard of a religion in which pride is not a sin, and yet pride in the state in America has practically become a religion of it's own. We have holidays, days of worship, religious iconography and monuments, church heads and theological debate.
Anyways the founding fathers were literally a bunch of super wealthy rich upper class white dudes that lived centuries ago who systematically caused and pushed for the complete genocide of the native populace. We really should not be relying on them for our morality. The constitution was written so it could be amended.
I'm sorry for any confusion. I didn't mean Reagan never told the joke - it was awesome. I mean he can be quoted as saying we are about to bomb the USSR, but we never did. A silly comment on the uncertainty of quotes out of context. Perhpas a better example would be when Joey Porter quoted Rush Limbaugh as having said "slavery had its advantages", which was never said and took days for NBC and MS-NBC to retract, even though they repeated it.
My point is that was an awfully egregious quotation by a fairly moderate personality. I struggle to take it at face value given the man's life and desire to get along with everyone.
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I'm sorry for any confusion. I didn't mean Reagan never told the joke - it was awesome. I mean he can be quoted as saying we are about to bomb the USSR, but we never did. A silly comment on the uncertainty of quotes out of context. Perhpas a better example would be when Joey Porter quoted Rush Limbaugh as having said "slavery had its advantages", which was never said and took days for NBC and MS-NBC to retract, even though they repeated it.
My point is that was an awfully egregious quotation by a fairly moderate personality. I struggle to take it at face value given the man's life and desire to get along with everyone.
Assuming he said it, which I do not, many stupid things came out of that mans mouth. Makes it easier to believe, true or not.
Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. He might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.
I'm sorry for any confusion. I didn't mean Reagan never told the joke - it was awesome. I mean he can be quoted as saying we are about to bomb the USSR, but we never did. A silly comment on the uncertainty of quotes out of context. Perhpas a better example would be when Joey Porter quoted Rush Limbaugh as having said "slavery had its advantages", which was never said and took days for NBC and MS-NBC to retract, even though they repeated it.
My point is that was an awfully egregious quotation by a fairly moderate personality. I struggle to take it at face value given the man's life and desire to get along with everyone.
Assuming he said it, which I do not, many stupid things came out of that mans mouth. Makes it easier to believe, true or not.
Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. He might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.
I thought he was mostly known for puking on a japanese official and claiming (erroneously) that there would be no new taxes. And for having Dana Carvey being able to imitate him exactly.
Oh Canada... meh.
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"Times have changed
Our kids are getting worse
They won't obey their parents
They just want to fart and curse!
Should we blame the government?
Or blame society?
Or should we blame the images on TV?
No, blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
We need to form a full assault
It's Canada's fault!
Don't blame me
For my son Stan
He saw the darn cartoon
And now he's off to join the Klan!
And my boy Eric once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to f%*+ myself!
Well, blame Canada
Blame Canada
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
They're not even a real country anyway
My son could've been a doctor or a lawyer rich and true,
Instead he burned up like a piggy on the barbecue
Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
heck no!
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their hockey hullabaloo
And that b*%*& Anne Murray too
Shame on Canada
For...
The smut we must stop
The trash we must bash
The Laughter and fun
Must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!!!!"
:)
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I thought he was mostly known for puking on a japanese official and claiming (erroneously) that there would be no new taxes. And for having Dana Carvey being able to imitate him exactly.I'm sorry for any confusion. I didn't mean Reagan never told the joke - it was awesome. I mean he can be quoted as saying we are about to bomb the USSR, but we never did. A silly comment on the uncertainty of quotes out of context. Perhpas a better example would be when Joey Porter quoted Rush Limbaugh as having said "slavery had its advantages", which was never said and took days for NBC and MS-NBC to retract, even though they repeated it.
My point is that was an awfully egregious quotation by a fairly moderate personality. I struggle to take it at face value given the man's life and desire to get along with everyone.
Assuming he said it, which I do not, many stupid things came out of that mans mouth. Makes it easier to believe, true or not.
Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. He might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.
You have your es mixed up. :)
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.
I thought H.W. was the elder Bush. Tell me Im not going crazy.
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Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. [George H.W. Bush] might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.
+1, actually.
Ok maybe I have my Bushes mixed up. Boy will my wife be pissed.I thought H.W. was the elder Bush. Tell me I'm not going crazy."I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
--George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987.
Hahahah it works on so many levels;)
Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. [George H.W. Bush] might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.+1, actually.
It's pretty hard to scrape any lower than presidents like Harding, or Buchanan maybe. Dubya wasn't even close. Anyone who thinks Dubya is the worst hasn't read their history.
What the future thinks of Dubya may depend on whether or not the future gives a whit for history. It may also be influenced by declassification of Bush admin secrets and memoirs of people who worked with him--and I mean later years memoirs that spill juicy secrets.
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Sometimes the perception is as bad, or worse than the reality. [George H.W. Bush] might have been one of our best presidents behind the scenes, which I doubt, but it wouldn't matter, the perception is that he was one of the worst, and it will take a generation before it is seen honestly.+1, actually.It's pretty hard to scrape any lower than presidents like Harding, or Buchanan maybe. Dubya wasn't even close. Anyone who thinks Dubya is the worst hasn't read their history.
What the future thinks of Dubya may depend on whether or not the future gives a whit for history. It may also be influenced by declassification of Bush admin secrets and memoirs of people who worked with him--and I mean later years memoirs that spill juicy secrets.
True, but we were talking about the other one.