You forgot "You don't expect your allies to suddenly attack you" giving them the automatic surprise round and sneak attack.If you're ally wants to make a sneak attack against you in combat while you're busy with someone else, he has to meet a couple of criteria :
A) He has to flank you with someone else who's attacking you (he can 'backstab' you by being opposite someone else who's attacking you).
B) He would need someone near him that can logically be the real attacker (in other words, he has to be in combat with someone as well, who's able to attack you).
C) He either has to Bluff you (to distract you), or, alternately, make a slight of hand check to stab you in the back without you noticing. If he bluffs, it's a sense motive check against his bluff. If it's a slight of hand, then it's a perception check vs his slight of hand.Stealth should not come into it. He should probably use slight of hand, to backstab, rather than bluff. The bluff would go up against your sense motive, which is probably higher than your perception. His slight of hand is probably much higher vs your perception.
Nope,
I was responding to the OPs assertion that he wanted to do so and not be caught doing it. Having a surprise round is useless if the paladin knows you're doing it, he's going to cream you if you don't kack him in the first hit.
You forgot "You don't expect your allies to suddenly attack you" giving them the automatic surprise round and sneak attack.If you're ally wants to make a sneak attack against you in combat while you're busy with someone else, he has to meet a couple of criteria :
A) He has to flank you with someone else who's attacking you (he can 'backstab' you by being opposite someone else who's attacking you).
B) He would need someone near him that can logically be the real attacker (in other words, he has to be in combat with someone as well, who's able to attack you).
C) He either has to Bluff you (to distract you), or, alternately, make a slight of hand check to stab you in the back without you noticing. If he bluffs, it's a sense motive check against his bluff. If it's a slight of hand, then it's a perception check vs his slight of hand.Stealth should not come into it. He should probably use slight of hand, to backstab, rather than bluff. The bluff would go up against your sense motive, which is probably higher than your perception. His slight of hand is probably much higher vs your perception.
Nope,
I was responding to the OPs assertion that he wanted to do so and not be caught doing it. Having a surprise round is useless if the paladin knows you're doing it, he's going to cream you if you don't kack him in the first hit.
Being aware of his presence doesn't mean being aware he is an enemy.
Being aware of his presence doesn't mean being aware he is an enemy.
You're missing the entire point.
Rogue : "I sneak attack him using surprise round."
GM : You hit, roll damage.
Paladin : "Ow! Who did that." Looks around. "Oh, it was you! I kill the rogue, since he's the only guy around that could have done it!"
The rogue was trying to sneak attack the Paladin without being caught doing so. Using a sneak attack surprise round doesn't do anything for that. As soon as he sneak attacks, the Paladin knows he was sneak attacked, and knows it was the rogue that did it. The only way the rogue can get away with it is to have some mook standing next to him with a sword or dagger when he stabs the Paladin.
Then when the paladin turns around, eyes red and foaming at the mouth over being attacked, the rogue can bat his big blue eyes and point to the mook. "He did it! I saw him!"
I dunno about the "you don't expect an ally to attack you" giving the rogue a surprise round. Apparently this rogue makes a habit of it, so if it was my paladin, I'd be keeping an eye on the rogue all the time.
Well, heck, if it was my paladin, the rogue would be dead or I would be already. I don't care if the rogue "scans" as evil, stabbing people indiscriminately is evil enough for me. Even if my paladin wasn't the target of his evil sneak attack, I'd still hunt him down and kill him. ESPECIALLY if I was trapped on an island with him.
As soon as that first attack happened, one thing would be certain. SOMEONE would be rolling up a new character.
This was an attack that occurred during a combat, so we weren't in the surprise round.
The paladin wasn't currently engaged in combat with anyone (having taken out his adversary the round before), but we hadn't dropped out of initiative because combat was still going on in the room.
My understanding of the situation is that with adequate lighting, no one flanking the paladin, and nothing to hide behind, the rogue should not have been able to use stealth vs the paladin's perception to make a sneak attack.
It sounds like the rogue could have made a bluff vs the paladin's sense motive to get in position and surprise him, but since this rogue has impulsively stabbed two NPC's in the past with no provocation, I would guess my paladin would have deserved a pretty large bonus on his sense motive roll.
This was an attack that occurred during a combat, so we weren't in the surprise round.
The paladin wasn't currently engaged in combat with anyone (having taken out his adversary the round before), but we hadn't dropped out of initiative because combat was still going on in the room.
My understanding of the situation is that with adequate lighting, no one flanking the paladin, and nothing to hide behind, the rogue should not have been able to use stealth vs the paladin's perception to make a sneak attack.
It sounds like the rogue could have made a bluff vs the paladin's sense motive to get in position and surprise him, but since this rogue has impulsively stabbed two NPC's in the past with no provocation, I would guess my paladin would have deserved a pretty large bonus on his sense motive roll.
Not only that, but even if he did successfully bluff you...
...you are aware he initiated an attack against you. He can't just stealth and say 'Oh, wasn't me dude'. With nothing around but him to have done the damage, he's outed, and you could have immediately smashed his skull in.
... but since this rogue has impulsively stabbed two NPC's in the past with no provocation...
I say that you DECLARE the little shit to be EVIL, and kill him.
Stabbing with no provocation? Has to be evil, and as a paladin you could not let this slide!!Even with the NPC's, you should have intervened! Bad paladin, bad ;)
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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... but since this rogue has impulsively stabbed two NPC's in the past with no provocation...I say that you DECLARE the little s%&~ to be EVIL, and kill him.
Stabbing with no provocation? Has to be evil, and as a paladin you could not let this slide!!Even with the NPC's, you should have intervened! Bad paladin, bad ;)
+1
A paladin is aware there are ways of masking evil. He is on the look out for evil actions and knows how to spot such actions. Take 'im out!
After tha battle, beat the everliving hell out of him until he fesses up his in-character reason for sneak-attacking allies in the midst of battle.
Ummm, Just for clarity sake, Mikaze.... you are saying the "characters" are doing this...not the players, right? :P
I agree with most, the rogue's actions predicate his being Evil, even if he doesn't detect as Evil. If the wizard throwing fireballs at your party doesn't detect as evil...doesn't your pally hit him with the pointy end of his sword? Not certain what the common goal for your group is, but stabbing others seems to kind of work at cross purposes.
Rogue: Why'd you attack me? You know I am not evil!
Paladin: I do not need magic to see your treachery *wak wak wak*
Rogue: ...
Greg
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Ummm, Just for clarity sake, Mikaze.... you are saying the "characters" are doing this...not the players, right? :P
Welllll, I'm not one for shutting out options completely... ;)
Really though, I'm morbidly curious as to whether the rogue player has any reason for what he'd doing beyond trolling the other players.
I started this thread because I was curious about the sneak attack rules, not because I was feeling wronged by another player.
A big part of the challenge and fun of this campaign is trying to get a group of characters that wouldn't normally be allies to work together as a team, anyway. Normally, this group of players makes characters that get along really well together, so this campaign has been a fun change of pace.
Like I said in an earlier comment, almost every character seems to have some sort of disfunction. It's kind of like making a party out of the inmates of a mental institution.
I started this thread because I was curious about the sneak attack rules, not because I was feeling wronged by another player.
A big part of the challenge and fun of this campaign is trying to get a group of characters that wouldn't normally be allies to work together as a team, anyway. Normally, this group of players makes characters that get along really well together, so this campaign has been a fun change of pace.
Like I said in an earlier comment, almost every character seems to have some sort of disfunction. It's kind of like making a party out of the inmates of a mental institution.
It seems you should have at least gotten a sense motive check. People that are up to something often look suspicious, and even more so to the trained eye.
edit:The sense motive check would have stopped him from having any way to catch you deny your dex bonus.
It seems you should have at least gotten a sense motive check. People that are up to something often look suspicious, and even more so to the trained eye.
A simple DC 20 Sense Motive check will let you know if someone is trustworthy or not. And that's without magic. Somebody who is willing to stab you in the middle of combat is definitely NOT trustworthy.
This came up last session and looks like it will become a recurring theme.
A rogue in my party decided to sneak-attack my paladin during a combat. His stealth skill is very high and my perception is only +5, so he will beat me at opposed checks almost every time. The DM told me to make a perception roll, and allowed a sneak attack against me because I didn't roll as high as the rogue.
Now reading the description of stealth, it seems clear that the rogue can't do this unless he has something to hide behind. Since we were both standing in the middle of a room, there should have been no way he could have gotten away with this.
I'll point this out next session, but now I'm looking at other ways I might get sneak-attacked later. Am I reading this stuff correctly?
If I am aware of his presence, he needs to make a bluff check opposed by my sense motive roll in order to distract me long enough to use stealth AND this will only work if he has something to hide behind. Additionally, this stealth check will have a -10 penalty because he has to move fast. If he succeeds on his stealth check, he can then make a ranged sneak attack against me, but not a melee sneak attack. If he is makes a ranged sneak attack, he may try to hide again with another stealth check at a -20 penalty.
I'd appreciate it if anyone could double-check my understanding of these rules. Thanks.
If this rogue is randomly stabbing a paladin, he is most likely evil or insane. Either way you have cause to kill him or get rid of him. So I would do it.
You seem young to even have this problem. No adult player would tolerate this kind of garbage.
I would have already killed this rogue. I would have demanded the DM either have him show cause as to why he is stabbing me or demand his alignment shift to evil for engaging in random, murderous activity. Then I would destroy said rogue.
If the DM didn't want to adhere to the rules for alignment mechanics in game and the rules of common decency out of game, I would find a new group. I would also get in the DM and players faces and call them a couple of choice words questioning their morals in a not so polite fashion.
You have every right as a paladin to outright kill anyone attempting to murder or harm you for no good reason. That's what you should do. As far as the rogue pulling off some foolish, "You didn't see me" or the like, acting like you have to play stupid because he made his stealth and bluff checks, then secretly tell your DM that you are taking extra effort to keep your eyes on the rogue and positioning to watch him. All the time. If he keeps pulling that garbage, kill him.