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I'm old. Can someone please respect me.
This is a silly thread. Attitudes HAVE changed, they have in each generation. Look at the Middle-East / North Africa at the moment! I don't think the gulf between Damian and Cartigan is D&D, I think it's experience.
I think that the role of the DM has changed over the years (due to less house rules and more codification), but players are players. Each player puts in as much effort into their character be it story, mechanics, or both. I've had players "proud of there technological terror they've constructed" (paraphrase Star Wars - A New Hope) and others who have bored me stupid with a character background of comparable length to War & Peace.
The point being each was proud and 'elitist' with regards to their efforts. For me that's a win as a DM, players that give a rats-behind about the game. Those players are easy to DM, they are attentive - either to the story or looking for that next roll-fix. I like elitists, I hate whose you turn up because they have nothing better to do.
Long live the Elitist, which ever type.
S.
I've been playing 4th edition for the past several months and the level of abstraction in the rules makes it feel like a video game, and in the end it is much more like a board game.Being that way since 2003. We are stuck with the idea that counting squares makes a better RPG...
And I'm stuck with a DM who plays Dungeons and Dragons during the day and World of Warcraft at night, and who won't run even the simplest encounter without counting squares.
I can't take gamers who ask for respect for experience in their hobby seriously. I've been gaming for 20 years, and you know what? It's just a game most of the time.
The younger ones want us to treat them with respect but then are unwilling to give it in return. And generally treat us with contempt just cause we are older. (its called jealousy.) And when its pointed out that to get respect you got to give it we are called elitist?
While it may be true that for some brief shining moments a game in a microcosm might wax religious in experience or meaningful in it's intensity or depth; that certainly isn't the baseline.
true enough... but would it not be something if it were?
C'mon guys. It's just DnD. If people were playing this for money, for competition (implying that you could win), or for anything more than just a good time MAYBE you could make an argument about a right way to play, or knowledge demanding respect... but it isn't, and you can't.
-Idle
Playing for money or not makes no difference.
Experience and knowledge counts for something. If you pay attention to what that "grey beard" has to say rather than dismissing him you may find he has some insights into the hobby that you may have missed.The same goes for the "grey beards" these new kids are a fresh pair of eyes looking in on the hobby they can (and do) see things we have been overlooking for years (if not decades).
Same goes for those coming in from spin offs from the hobby... (MMOs, Console RPGS, etc...)
those who have been at it for a while may see similarities to things you take for granted.
But respect must be given from all sides before this can happen.
Sadly there are some on these boards who have managed to prove (to me anyway) they cannot keep the respect they are given.
And I'm stuck with a DM who plays Dungeons and Dragons during the day and World of Warcraft at night, and who won't run even the simplest encounter without counting squares.
Being that way since 2003. We are stuck with the idea that counting squares makes a better RPG...
I don't get this. We counted squares in 1st edition, in anything but the most trivial or open encounters. We also had to spend huge amounts of time counting squares for our fireballs (which regularly filled entire dungeon levels).
We had battlemats, miniatures, wet-erase markers, the whole thing... back in the mid-late 80s. The importance of the battlemat changed from encounter to encounter, of course, and wasn't always used. But it was always there for any battle that 'mattered'. And these were gaming tools sold by gaming companies, not some crazy add-on we played with that no one else did.
D&D was bigger. The hoby is no longer just D&D. Maybe 1/10th of the roleplayers I know own a copy of the core books from 3.0, 3.5, 4E or pathfinder. Not all play D&D, and those that do can get the information they need for free from a friend. Not every D&D GM I know owns a copy of a core rulebook.
The hobby wasn't just D&D back then either. D&D was the top selling game in the 80's and it still is today. So, I do think sales figures for that particular game is valid data.
It is impossible to calculate the effects of PDFs, and especially PDF piracy on the hobby, but the fact that sales figures for D&D are 10% of what they were 25 years ago shows the hobby is not growing.
Stuff
Take a step back for a moment.
Your arguing.
On the internet.
About a game.
A game where you pretend to be people/things you aren't.
Your arguing about how people should respect you for your knowledge of such a thing.
This is not, in and of itself, ridiculous to you?
-Idle
Can we drop the "4e = MMO" and other edition war nonsense going on in this thread.
1) It's pretty clearly against stated forum rules to engage in edition war trolling.
2) Several community member including myself actually like 4e as a game despite also liking 1e-3e. I don't feel like we should have to justify our support of a game to individuals who clearly are trolling without any clear understanding of the game in question.
As to my gaming cred, I'm just as much of a grognard as virtually anyone else in this thread I just don't believe that the type of tribalism being practiced here benefits either the Pathfinder community or the gaming world in general.
Don't like 4e? Fine but the pool of potential RPG gamers isn't that large and engaging in exclusionary practices just makes this community toxic to open communication and can scare away potential converts.
In short keep that stuff on a more appropriate forum, I'd suggest /tg/ which is almost always full of edition war trolling.
And I'm stuck with a DM who plays Dungeons and Dragons during the day and World of Warcraft at night, and who won't run even the simplest encounter without counting squares.
Being that way since 2003. We are stuck with the idea that counting squares makes a better RPG...I don't get this. We counted squares in 1st edition, in anything but the most trivial or open encounters. We also had to spend huge amounts of time counting squares for our fireballs (which regularly filled entire dungeon levels).
We had battlemats, miniatures, wet-erase markers, the whole thing... back in the mid-late 80s. The importance of the battlemat changed from encounter to encounter, of course, and wasn't always used. But it was always there for any battle that 'mattered'. And these were gaming tools sold by gaming companies, not some crazy add-on we played with that no one else did.
I completely agree with you, but my DM won't even run trivial encounters without counting squares. I don't think he even could without burning half the 4th edition rulebook.
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We had battlemats, miniatures, wet-erase markers, the whole thing... back in the mid-late 80s.
Could Use verses Required to Use. I got through the entire 80's with only using miniatures for Warhammer 40k (back when Harlequins ruled). But I bet we both had fun playing D&D.
If I may quote Monte Cook, d20's father, and his take on 3.5e (which holds for 4e also) (http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html)
"The game has an even stronger focus on miniatures. 3.0 had a strong focus on miniatures, but we wanted to at least address the fact that you might not want to play the game that way...Seriously, though, for those wanting to play the game sitting on the couch, the game now offers a new barrier for you. The Combat chapter in the Player's Handbook now reads like a miniatures game."
That is what I meant. Choice has been taken away from me. I play with miniatures or I don't play the game as intended. Awesome.
S.
D&D was bigger. The hoby is no longer just D&D. Maybe 1/10th of the roleplayers I know own a copy of the core books from 3.0, 3.5, 4E or pathfinder. Not all play D&D, and those that do can get the information they need for free from a friend. Not every D&D GM I know owns a copy of a core rulebook.The hobby wasn't just D&D back then either. D&D was the top selling game in the 80's and it still is today. So, I do think sales figures for that particular game is valid data.
It is impossible to calculate the effects of PDFs, and especially PDF piracy on the hobby, but the fact that sales figures for D&D are 10% of what they were 25 years ago shows the hobby is not growing.
is that units volume? or inflation adjusted dollars?
If Units then keep in mind that there were fewer companies back in the day than there are now. so just viewing the figures of one company will not give an accurate over view of the hobby as a whole.While I am inclined to agree that the hobby is not growing like it once did I question if it is in as bad shape as I once thought or is more that there is too much diversity of product which has only managed to dilute the impact of what dollars are being spent? Also has the recent (relatively speaking) economic issues affected the hobby as a whole?
Playing for money or not makes no difference.
I'd like to hone in on this for just a moment to say this is definitely not true. If money or competition were involved, there WOULD become a "right way" to play- the way that makes you win/get money.
Thus, RPG's in general are always casual, and never serious. You just can't get up in arms about something which has no intrinsic right/wrong or win/lose. It is only as good as the fun you have. There are no other absolute values.
-Idle
Can we drop the "4e = MMO" and other edition war nonsense going on in this thread.
1) It's pretty clearly against stated forum rules to engage in edition war trolling.
2) Several community member including myself actually like 4e as a game despite also liking 1e-3e. I don't feel like we should have to justify our support of a game to individuals who clearly are trolling without any clear understanding of the game in question.
As to my gaming cred, I'm just as much of a grognard as virtually anyone else in this thread I just don't believe that the type of tribalism being practiced here benefits either the Pathfinder community or the gaming world in general.
Don't like 4e? Fine but the pool of potential RPG gamers isn't that large and engaging in exclusionary practices just makes this community toxic to open communication and can scare away potential converts.
In short keep that stuff on a more appropriate forum, I'd suggest /tg/ which is almost always full of edition war trolling.
It's President's Day. We're paying our respects to the political process. :)
We had battlemats, miniatures, wet-erase markers, the whole thing... back in the mid-late 80s.Could Use verses Required to Use. I got through the entire 80's with only using miniatures for Warhammer 40k (back when Harlequins ruled). But I bet we both had fun playing D&D.
That is what I meant. Choice has been taken away from me. I play with miniatures or I don't play the game as intended. Awesome.
S.
1st, thumbs up for playing Harlequins. I still have my Harlequin Jetbike army.
Secondly, I have played both Pathfinder and 4e without a grid/miniatures. It requires the exact same levels of GM fiat that it did back in 1st edition. You ask if you can full attack, charge, flank, how many bad guys you can get in a certain spell.
Now, Pathfinder and 4e both make it so the use of miniatures gives a lot of power to the players... you can look at the map and figure out the best way to move to get off attacks that don't cause friendly fire, you can force flanks, you can set up cleaves, etc. Without miniatures, you have to tell the GM that's what you want to do, and the GM says if you can do it or not.
I prefer to play with miniatures and a grid in 'important' combats that are going to drain a lot of resources, and I prefer to skip the grid in the speed-bump/story encounters.
I'm not a big fan of caring about 'playing as intended'. In fact, if you know that your GM is 'all tactical combat all the time' or 'I love me some cinematic style combat' then a few combats in, it should be able to flavor your feat and spell choices to stay away from the ones that aren't suited to the GM's style.
While I am inclined to agree that the hobby is not growing like it once did I question if it is in as bad shape as I once thought or is more that there is too much diversity of product which has only managed to dilute the impact of what dollars are being spent? Also has the recent (relatively speaking) economic issues affected the hobby as a whole?
I can give you an Anecdote. I grew up in a rural town in the deep south. a town of 11,000 people, and the 'big' high school had 275 people in my graduating class.
My standard D&D group was 6 people. There were two other D&D groups of 5-6 people each. We had a few people that played now and again, so that any given game we probably had 7-8 people at the session. There were several other people who bought the books but didn't play. This was 1984-1989. And we were playing: AD&D, Top Secret, Star Frontiers, Traveller, Car Wars, Marvel Super Heroes, TMNT, Star Fleet Battles, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Trek, Shadowrun... there was no shortage of things to spread our dollars around.
I now live in a major US city. I'm part of multiple overlapping roleplaying groups, but we're all in our mid 20s to late 40s. There are about 25 of us in our core groups, and we play when we can (I'm lucky to have a wife who roleplays, so we're currently in 3 different campaigns).
However, my son, who is in high school, has tried repeatedly to get a D&D group going, and in a school of nearly 2000 students, has only found 2 people who are interested in the game at all. And if it wasn't for his parents playing D&D (or Cthulhu, or Dresden, or Fiasco, or whatever) a couple times a month, giving him books and dice and miniatures... (and also, not letting him play WoW) he wouldn't be playing it either.
Now, this is purely anecdotal, and has no actual bearing on the realities of the situation, but it is fairly telling.
StuffTake a step back for a moment.
Your arguing.
On the internet.
About a game.A game where you pretend to be people/things you aren't.
Your arguing about how people should respect you for your knowledge of such a thing.
This is not, in and of itself, ridiculous to you?
-Idle
And asking for a modicum of respect for my experience and knowledge of a game is different from giving respect to an athlete, or teacher,or game writer/designer for their dedication to their craft how?
Playing for money or not makes no difference.I'd like to hone in on this for just a moment to say this is definitely not true. If money or competition were involved, there WOULD become a "right way" to play- the way that makes you win/get money.
Thus, RPG's in general are always casual, and never serious. You just can't get up in arms about something which has no intrinsic right/wrong or win/lose. It is only as good as the fun you have. There are no other absolute values.
-Idle
Tell that to the professional Game Masters. They get paid to do demos, playtests, etc...
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If you prefer 4E, click here:
Don't listen to the 3tards on this thread. 3E/3.5E/Pathfinder is unnecessarily complicated and totally unbalanced. 4E is a cutting edge design that strips away decades of cruft and delivers a great play experience.
Now show those 3tards!
On the other hand, if you prefer 3E/3.5E/Pathfinder, click here:
Don't listen to the 4rons this thread. 4E is a watered-down MMO for dumb kids. On the other hand, 3E/3.5E/Pathfinder honor the heritage of the game. They are real D&D, and deliver a great play experience.
Now show those 4rons!
is that units volume? or inflation adjusted dollars?
If Units then keep in mind that there were fewer companies back in the day than there are now. so just viewing the figures of one company will not give an accurate over view of the hobby as a whole.While I am inclined to agree that the hobby is not growing like it once did I question if it is in as bad shape as I once thought or is more that there is too much diversity of product which has only managed to dilute the impact of what dollars are being spent? Also has the recent (relatively speaking) economic issues affected the hobby as a whole?
It's units. Erik Mona and James Jacobs who have first hand experience say that it isn't as big as it used to be.
Erik Mona said that in today's market a smaller company is lucky to sell through a print run of 10,000. Their were modules back in the 80's that sold 10 times that.
Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.
How do you figure that?
I don't think white chocolate is real chocolate either. Does that make me an elitist?
I thought Happy Days wasn't really Happy Days any more when Ron Howard was no longer on the show. Does that make me an elitist?
Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.How do you figure that?
I don't think white chocolate is real chocolate either. Does that make me an elitist?
I thought Happy Days wasn't really Happy Days any more when Ron Howard was no longer on the show. Does that make me an elitist?
By his reasoning...
Apparently yes.
And asking for a modicum of respect for my experience and knowledge of a game is different from giving respect to an athlete, or teacher,or game writer/designer for their dedication to their craft how?
In short, you've made a ton of claims through out this thread that are supposedly backed up from your long experience in the hobby and your conversations with various designers. Further you denigrate the experiences of other posters as immature and lacking in your experience.
This is a fallacious argument. Being a grognard doesn't make someone any more competent to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of a system or playstyle than any other gamer. The sooner grognards realize that their experiences aren't universally relevant or valuable the quicker they can actually contribute to the community in a meaningful way.
Once you get it into your head that people can contribute to the understanding of a game and roleplaying in general regardless of age it becomes much more fun to communicate across peer groups. There are plenty of people in the hobby older than I am and plenty younger and I feel like I can gain potential insight from each of them regardless of how august their pedigree is ;)
And asking for a modicum of respect for my experience and knowledge of a game is different from giving respect to an athlete, or teacher,or game writer/designer for their dedication to their craft how?In short, you've made a ton of claims through out this thread that are supposedly backed up from your long experience in the hobby and your conversations with various designers. Further you denigrate the experiences of other posters as immature and lacking in your experience.
This is a fallacious argument. Being a grognard doesn't make someone any more competent to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of a system or playstyle than any other gamer. The sooner grognards realize that their experiences aren't universally relevant or valuable the quicker they can actually contribute to the community in a meaningful way.
Once you get it into your head that people can contribute to the understanding of a game and roleplaying in general regardless of age it becomes much more fun to communicate across peer groups. There are plenty of people in the hobby older than I am and plenty younger and I feel like I can gain potential insight from each of them regardless of how august their pedigree is ;)
This. I find it allows for an overcoming of the percieved "camps" whichever ones you care to identify and gives me an opportunity od find great ideas.
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That is what I meant. Choice has been taken away from me. I play with miniatures or I don't play the game as intended. Awesome.S.
Ah, but you have plenty of options; original D&D, B/X, AD&D1E, AD&D2E, 3.0, 3.5, 4E, Pathfinder, Dragons at Dawn, Castles and Crusades, Swords and Wizardry, BFRPG, etc. With all the retroclones, OOP books, OGL titles, newer in-print iterations of the game, we now have more versions of D&D than we ever had in the past. Several of these versions are available for free.
If you really don't like any version of D&D as written, you could always make your own houseruled set.
-Ewan
You misinterpret me. I like the 'new' d20-like systems. Easy to teach, with the exception of combat and all the codified moves. 3.0e was a tipping point where the feats/abilities weren't so strongly tied to the mechanics of square counting. 3.5e/PF/4e took that last step towards the requirement of a battle-mat to make some feats/abilities function without huge DM headaches. A Game of Thrones and WotC's own Call of Cthulhu managed to avoid such a focus on miniatures.
PF is like running around with your pants off - pure character making freedom. Just the miniature requirement spoils the fun adding a few thorns - not fatal, but an annoyance and you have to watch your step.
S.
PS: In my weekend group we a re-playing Temple of Element Evil, 1e.
PS: In my weekend group we a re-playing Temple of Element Evil, 1e.
I hate you. I have started it like 6 times since it first came out and have never finished it
And asking for a modicum of respect for my experience and knowledge of a game is different from giving respect to an athlete, or teacher,or game writer/designer for their dedication to their craft how?In short, you've made a ton of claims through out this thread that are supposedly backed up from your long experience in the hobby and your conversations with various designers. Further you denigrate the experiences of other posters as immature and lacking in your experience.
This is a fallacious argument. Being a grognard doesn't make someone any more competent to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of a system or playstyle than any other gamer. The sooner grognards realize that their experiences aren't universally relevant or valuable the quicker they can actually contribute to the community in a meaningful way.
Once you get it into your head that people can contribute to the understanding of a game and roleplaying in general regardless of age it becomes much more fun to communicate across peer groups. There are plenty of people in the hobby older than I am and plenty younger and I feel like I can gain potential insight from each of them regardless of how august their pedigree is ;)
So it is impossible for me to know anything about min/maxing (optimization), play testing to destruction, How to spot a rules break, how to deal with the "cascade effect" when house ruling, how to handle problem players, how to spot said problem players before they become disruptive to the group, how to spot a bad GM, how to cope as player with the various bad GM archetypes, how to deal with group dynamics, how to design a campaign, how to tailor a pre-generated scenario or campaign to your groups various player archetypes, etc... because my experience is meaningless?
Right... and they say I have been shoveling Bovine Excrement (oy).They only way one learns to deal with those issues is through experience. And when someone who has already experienced those things offers advice (weather you choose to use it or not) you should still treat them with respect. That "old timer" loves the hobby at least as much as you do. He is merely trying to help you avoid the pitfalls he fell into that (in all likely hood) almost made him quit the hobby.
If the so called new gamers treat me with respect they find they get it in return. If they treat me with contempt they get that back.
You will always reap what you sow.
I hate you. I have started it like 6 times since it first came out and have never finished itPS: In my weekend group we a re-playing Temple of Element Evil, 1e.
I remember when that module first came out only ever had one character out of 5 finish it. Of the other 4 one didnt even make it to the "official" start of that crawl... (dawrf fighter with a big mouth, low CHA, and not enough skill to back up his mouth with out help.) The others... various traps...
They only way one learns to deal with those issues is through experience.This is not true, if it was than your opinion on any of these issues would be absolutely meaningless. Do you see why?
QED eh? Quite.
So it is impossible for me to know anything about min/maxing (optimization), play testing to destruction, How to spot a rules break, how to deal with the "cascade effect" when house ruling, how to handle problem players, how to spot said problem players before they become disruptive to the group, how to spot a bad GM, how to cope as player with the various bad GM archetypes, how to deal with group dynamics, how to design a campaign, how to tailor a pre-generated scenario or campaign to your groups various player archetypes, etc... because my experience is meaningless?
Based on the way you've conducted yourself here, I wouldn't seek your advice on any of these things. Many of those items, particularly the "bad player/gm" ones, are at heart social issues. You clearly have a divisive personality. You've made me want to distance myself from your arguments that I agree with.
This thread is a fun read.
"I demand respect!"
"I don't respect you."
"Well, I don't respect you either!"
Ugh. Respect is earned not given. And, really, there is not much way to earn it in RPGs outside of your group of friends...and even then it's usually only earned by being a good person, not anything that has much to do with the RPG itself, but rather showing up on time, bringing food/drink, not getting too far off topic, accommodating others, and generally facilitating a fun time. Fun, however, differs from person to person and group to group. To try and say "I've been having fun longer so I deserve respect. I take my fun seriouser. Your fun is no match for my fun!" is just ridiculous.
Hey Sylvanite. I like the cut of your jib.
Everything is better with pirates.
Everything is better with pirates.
Not shipping concerns.
Everything is better with pirates.Not shipping concerns.
Yarr! Take what you can, give nothing back. ;)
So it is impossible for me to know anything about min/maxing (optimization), play testing to destruction, How to spot a rules break, how to deal with the "cascade effect" when house ruling, how to handle problem players, how to spot said problem players before they become disruptive to the group, how to spot a bad GM, how to cope as player with the various bad GM archetypes, how to deal with group dynamics, how to design a campaign, how to tailor a pre-generated scenario or campaign to your groups various player archetypes, etc... because my experience is meaningless?Based on the way you've conducted yourself here, I wouldn't seek your advice on any of these things. Many of those items, particularly the "bad player/gm" ones, are at heart social issues. You clearly have a divisive personality. You've made me want to distance myself from your arguments that I agree with.
Admittedly I can be quite abrasive when on a subject I believe in strongly. Take it for what its worth. I make no apologies for that abrasiveness it is a part of my personality.
On other game sites it is often said like him or Hate him; DM sticks to his principles.
And yes many of those issues are social and they are not new to the hobby. And there are non-adversarial methods of dealing with them. The Gaming books however usually only offer up one method of dealing with them. (the one that should always be you last resort) Quit the group or boot the offending player. (in smaller areas this option can result in no gaming for extended periods of time. Older gamers who have suffered through these social faux paux can offer up alternatives that allow you to continue gaming (often with the group intact.)
This whole thing started because one soul has repeatedly screamed elitist when ever some one mentions they have played for any length of time or even suggests that newer PnP RPGs are starting to resemble certain vid-games. Now I would have stayed out of it has I said in my original post had he not intimated that age + experience == hidebound know nothings. Call it reactive if you wish but screaming you are insulting me while throwing barbs of your own is hardly polite or worthy of respect.
Respect is earned not given. And, really, there is not much way to earn it in RPGs outside of your group of friends...and even then it's usually only earned by being a good person, not anything that has much to do with the RPG itself, but rather showing up on time, bringing food/drink, not getting too far off topic, accommodating others, and generally facilitating a fun time. Fun, however, differs from person to person and group to group. To try and say "I've been having fun longer so I deserve respect. I take my fun seriouser. Your fun is no match for my fun!" is just ridiculous.
yes Respect is earned... And it can be earned on BBS just as easily as in real life.
I find it odd that this BBS is the only one I have visited (out of quite lot) where old timers are routinely treated with contempt and it is allowed to happen. Many who refer to themselves as grognards routinely dance around the subject and say stop it but do nothing else. I also find it humorous that when someone abrasive enough to stand up to the worst of the contemptuous ones does so he suddenly gets painted as the bad guy.cest la vie.
Everything is better with pirates.Not shipping concerns.Yarr! Take what you can, give nothing back. ;)
That used to be our "toast" in college. Oddly enough, we always ended up "giving plenty back." The moral of the story, kids, is that you will eventually fail a Con check if you don't actively avoid them.
Edit: Magecraft, simply being an old-timer doesn't make you or anyone worthy of respect OR disrespect. That gets taken into account by how you handle yourself. The reason you see old-timers getting jumped on is because they are using their "old-timerness" to look down on others. That earns the disrespect.
Video games, at least the ones that newer RPGs get accused of mirroring GREW OUT OF RPGs to begin with. They're all games. Some are different. It's ok to dislike them, but to suggest somehow that they are unworthy in comparison to what you like, or how it used to be done "back in the day" (which was a Tuesday, btw), is ludicrous, and Cartigan is actually right in calling it elitist. Preference is one thing, value judgment and assignation is another.
Also, simply saying "Well, abrasive is just the way I am!" doesn't mean it's acceptable. You don't get to somehow hand-wave being jerky by simply admitting you're jerky.
This whole thing started because one soul has repeatedly screamed elitist when ever some one mentions they have played for any length of time or even suggests that newer PnP RPGs are starting to resemble certain vid-games. Now I would have stayed out of it has I said in my original post had he not intimated that age + experience == hidebound know nothings. Call it reactive if you wish but screaming you are insulting me while throwing barbs of your own is hardly polite or worthy of respect.
Deploy ad hominem. Cue situational irony.
Based on the way you've conducted yourself here, I wouldn't seek your advice on any of these things. Many of those items, particularly the "bad player/gm" ones, are at heart social issues. You clearly have a divisive personality. You've made me want to distance myself from your arguments that I agree with.Admittedly I can be quite abrasive when on a subject I believe in strongly. Take it for what its worth. I make no apologies for that abrasiveness it is a part of my personality.
On other game sites it is often said like him or Hate him; DM sticks to his principles.
My comment is not intended to insult. There was some discussion about respect being earned and the like, and I wanted to point out that the impression you have made in the last 24 hours has not given much cause for respect, even to those who may share your views. I respect a civil tone, above all else, on these boards.
That said, welcome to the forum! Non-sarcastically. I'm sorry we're off to a bad start. Hopefully you can join the forces of good and go about the business of purveying that good advice you mention, rather than giving over to the baiting and flaming in which some may indulge.
Based on the way you've conducted yourself here, I wouldn't seek your advice on any of these things. Many of those items, particularly the "bad player/gm" ones, are at heart social issues. You clearly have a divisive personality. You've made me want to distance myself from your arguments that I agree with.Admittedly I can be quite abrasive when on a subject I believe in strongly. Take it for what its worth. I make no apologies for that abrasiveness it is a part of my personality.
On other game sites it is often said like him or Hate him; DM sticks to his principles.
My comment is not intended to insult. There was some discussion about respect being earned and the like, and I wanted to point out that the impression you have made in the last 24 hours has not given much cause for respect, even to those who may share your views. I respect a civil tone, above all else, on these boards.
That said, welcome to the forum! Non-sarcastically. I'm sorry we're off to a bad start. Hopefully you can join the forces of good and go about the business of purveying that good advice you mention, rather than giving over to the baiting and flaming in which some may indulge.
Looking back I see I have not really done much to further the cause of experience == insight and deserves some respect...
I fell into my old reactionary habits of try and slap some sense into them...One reason I tried to stay out of it.
next time I just stop reading the thread...
(yeah I dont believe me on that last one either...)
Looking back I see I have not really done much to further the cause of experience == insight and deserves some respect...
I fell into my old reactionary habits of try and slap some sense into them...
One reason I tried to stay out of it.
next time I just stop reading the thread...
(yeah I dont believe me on that last one either...)
Cartigan brings out the worst in me too. (with apologies to Cartigan but he knows it)
DM, I recommend hitting the setting and Paizo-products threads and seeing if you can't put your GM-chops to work advising people who are asking for specifics. That is the principle source of good karma on these boards.
You mean Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bates, right?
You are confusing respect for the hobby with interest in the history/minutiae of the hobby. For instance, someone can respect comic books without knowing (or caring) about the (many) versions of Batman
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And Adam West, whoever does the current animated TV show, the various comic book iterations, etc.
For the Hulk, there's the gray Hulk as well as the green Hulk, not to mention Bill Bixby/Lou Ferrigno (TV series) as well as Eric Bana, and IIRC some animated TV shows as well.
Superman has vastly more versions/iterations, going back to the 1930's (!), than just the (recent) movie versions by Christopher Reeve and Brandon Routh.
I could go on, but most of what I know I picked up second-hand and by some quick research on Wikipedia.
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Considering the way this thread has been going over the past several hours, I'll repeat the very end of my other post: "Cast thou the beam from thine own eye..."
While I am inclined to agree that the hobby is not growing like it once did I question if it is in as bad shape as I once thought or is more that there is too much diversity of product which has only managed to dilute the impact of what dollars are being spent? Also has the recent (relatively speaking) economic issues affected the hobby as a whole?I can give you an Anecdote. I grew up in a rural town in the deep south. a town of 11,000 people, and the 'big' high school had 275 people in my graduating class.
My standard D&D group was 6 people. There were two other D&D groups of 5-6 people each. We had a few people that played now and again, so that any given game we probably had 7-8 people at the session. There were several other people who bought the books but didn't play. This was 1984-1989. And we were playing: AD&D, Top Secret, Star Frontiers, Traveller, Car Wars, Marvel Super Heroes, TMNT, Star Fleet Battles, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Star Trek, Shadowrun... there was no shortage of things to spread our dollars around.
I now live in a major US city. I'm part of multiple overlapping roleplaying groups, but we're all in our mid 20s to late 40s. There are about 25 of us in our core groups, and we play when we can (I'm lucky to have a wife who roleplays, so we're currently in 3 different campaigns).
However, my son, who is in high school, has tried repeatedly to get a D&D group going, and in a school of nearly 2000 students, has only found 2 people who are interested in the game at all. And if it wasn't for his parents playing D&D (or Cthulhu, or Dresden, or Fiasco, or whatever) a couple times a month, giving him books and dice and miniatures... (and also, not letting him play WoW) he wouldn't be playing it either.
Now, this is purely anecdotal, and has no actual bearing on the realities of the situation, but it is fairly telling.
And then he will hit college, where he will find almost every major campus has a club set up for people who want to play games. Thats if you even need to leave your freshmen floor to find enough people for a game. The problem will become turning people away from a game table because you have too many rather than finding enough. The game is alive and well on college campuses, where in my experience much of the focus turns away from isolated computer games and towards more social games.
Agreed on the college thing. It also just varies very widely by area. I have lived in some areas where it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a game...there really weren't even gaming stores.
I live in an area now where there is a very active gaming community, multiple gaming stores that run RPG games on various nights for public play, and lots of people willing to invite you to home games if you get to know them and aren't a scallywag or rapscallion.
I've also taught in a school system where I used to play some games (MTG, DnD, Heroscape, monopoly, etc.) after school with some of the students...until administration told me that games with fantasy elements were not tolerated because of religious issues (public school too....yikes).
Then again I taught in a different town where I was encouraged to not only hold the games after school, but make an official club out of it by the administration. ("Hey if you're going to be spending the time with students after school and fostering a fun, intelligent environment, you should get paid for it!" Good people in that system.)
Just goes to show you that it really depends where you are.
Case in point.Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.
That some feel my opinion about 4e makes me elitist speaks volumes about their maturity.
I, too, think that 4e isn't really D&D. Otariinae are not related to panthera leo, either, but they're still called "sea lions". Doesn't make them lions.
PDF piracy on the hobby
It just replaced Xerox Piracy. It's not like the magical engine called computer ushered in a brave new time that finally enables people to replicate the written word.
I'll admit that PFSs, being more convenient to copy, might have contributed to the growth of RPG piracy, but the issue was around before.
By the way, calling the illegal copying of media "piracy" was extremely silly.
Software Piracy sounds so awesome. One imagines guys with cutlasses and eyepatches driving alongside an electronics store, massacring clerks, enslaving customers and letting the store manage walk the plank, and then making off with their shrink-wrapped booty!
But then it's only illegal copying. Not even theft, really, since the original is still there.
Was a huge disappointment for me. I had bought the costume and all that, too, and got some shirts printed with "Terror of the Seven IPs" on them. Sadly, I never got to keelhaul that snotty little prick in that crappy store who wouldn't show me the way to the computer games. But a man can dream. A man can dream...
A game where you pretend to be people/things you aren't.
Like I pretend in the game that I'm not insane.
But to be honest, I pretend that in real life, too, sometimes.
I, too, think that 4e isn't really D&D. Otariinae are not related to panthera leo, either, but they're still called "sea lions". Doesn't make them lions.Case in point.Yes, your opinion that 4e isn't real D&D makes you elitist.
That some feel my opinion about 4e makes me elitist speaks volumes about their maturity.
D&D is whatever Hasbro/WotC says is D&D effectively. Is 3.5 not D&D because it isn't 1e?