Looking through Sanctum of the Serpent God, I couldn't help but notice that there seem to be a lot of encounters with what amounts at that level to mooks who individually have a CR of 10 or 11. Those guys have an attack bonus around +19 to +20.
The problem I am seeing here is that they almost cannot hit an average level 15 party anymore. My players in CotC have just reached this level and everybody who is statted as a frontliner sports about an AC of 37 to 40.
Yeah, I know about tactics such as flanking and ambushes, but even so, the vast majority of these encounters will be only challenging in the sense of how much time it costs me to draw up the map and play out these already over-before-they-began encounters.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that it would seem preferable to me to not throw that many time-consuming mook encounters into the AP's, but to rather use the mooks in fights with bigger bads, so that the action economy is not so slanted as normally in the fights where the party is normally alone with one big bad guy. I just had a fight one week ago in my soon-to-end CotCT campaign where I combined five statted encounters into one and that just challenged my players enough to make the fight seem a little more fair to the opponents. They still lost very thoroughly.
RPG Superstar 2013
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I haven't read the adventure path cause 'm too poor to subscribe. Or have to much wealth in pop-tart consuming children to subscribe. Glass is half full.
But one maxim for being a great GM is you have got to let your people show off their chops. Especially as the time between levels gets longer, the wizard has got to ahve the satsfaction of ending an encounter with one spell, or a combat needs enough mooks for a ranger to actually get in all six attacks while surrounded by dudes that can't hurt him. Several lower-CR encounters per plot arch are a staple of my games. Sure, I hang my head in shame cause the advanced palgue zombies just can't hit anyone, but I don't realy care. One of my players got to use cleave!
Plus, lower CR encounters lull your players to sleep so you can butcher them with something CR appropriate when they least expect it. Actually, that's the real reason I do it.
FInally, of course, there's something for the roleplaying. By 15th level, I imagine you jsut can't keep throwing mobs of CR 8 lizardmen barbarians at parties. I mean, is the whole tribe composed of legendary chiefs? SO yuo give them what the terrain has naturally, and you spice it up with your actual villains or an apex predator or something.
I see your points, but maybe my mentality is just a bit different. I don't mind including the trash monsters into a good encounter, and that way the players get to feel powerful while still feeling challenged by the better monsters.
But given that a lot of the CR 13-15 in that module also had guys whose best single attack was at +25 ( of a series of iterative attacks, meaning their next attack was at +20 ), so that they maybe also would get in one hit and then get slaughtered mercilessly, I think that a better mix of encounters from the AP would have worked better.
Now, I know that this ties into a larger problem with pre-written encounters and NPC's with class levels, because writers cannot prepare for very defensive-minded groups ( my next campaign already has two sword-and-board melee guys in it... my players seemingly don't know how to play guys with low AC ^^ ) and that NPC's equipment is limited by their own wealth limits. But a lot of the encounters for this module really didn't resonate with me. Four CR 11 which can do nothing against the PC's do not make a convincing CR 15 for me. In all probability they cost the group very little to no resources, so the old 3.5 rule that an equal CR encounter should amount to 20% of the parties resources doesn't even apply.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I haven't read this one yet, but two things come to mind. First, are these lower CR threats supposed to be ones that wear the PCs down by attrition? The PCs might be able to pretty easily deal with these encounters, but they still need to use up spell slots, hp/healing etc.
Also, do the enemies that only have +25 attack on their first iterative attack have the vital strike series of feats? If so, then they can only use that first attack and boost the damage, rather than hitting only with the first and missing with their remaining attacks.
I haven't read this one yet, but two things come to mind. First, are these lower CR threats supposed to be ones that wear the PCs down by attrition? The PCs might be able to pretty easily deal with these encounters, but they still need to use up spell slots, hp/healing etc.
Again, this may be due to my group of players general defensive attitude, but I couldn't see most of those encounters costing them many resources. Maybe a defensive spell from the casters, but the melee types would not be in any danger.
Also, do the enemies that only have +25 attack on their first iterative attack have the vital strike series of feats? If so, then they can only use that first attack and boost the damage, rather than hitting only with the first and missing with their remaining attacks.
The guys with a +25 on their first attack will only hit in most cases on a 12+, so even that is an iffy proposition. And, as far as I've seen, only one of them does have the Vital Strike feat chain.
I guess my main complaint is that the module seems filled with "trash mob" encounters, which only serve to slow the party down ( but cost tons of time to draw up on the map and play out ). I would simply have preferred more mixed encounters, with several monsters of lower and higher CR's working together.
Creative Director
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This adventure doesn't expect the PCs are going to have much of a chance to stop and catch their breath and resupply/restore strength. The large number of lower CR threads are indeed meant to wear down the PCs by attrition, but they also serve another VERY important role that is often overlooked.
They help make the PCs feel like they're finally real badasses.
If every single encounter is constructed to challenge the party equally, then that first tense fight against the kobolds in the 1st level adventure feels no different, tension wise, than the last tense fight against the demon army or whatever. By including low CR encounters, the PCs get a chance to use their powers and actually FEEL like they've become high level, not only because they're mowing through foes that have a tough time hurting them, but because they're doing that to foes that, a few adventures back, were a tough fight.
If you're on some sort of schedule and have to finish the AP by a set real-life date, then you should probably consider omitting these lesser encounters, but keep in mind that by doing so you're robbing your players of a chance to actually feel tough. When you DO run these encounters, pay close attention to how your players are enjoying them. If they're bored, then by all means skip similar encounters. But if the players are having a blast killing all those mooks and chumps... then the game's working as it should.
Looking through Sanctum of the Serpent God, I couldn't help but notice that there seem to be a lot of encounters with what amounts at that level to mooks who individually have a CR of 10 or 11. Those guys have an attack bonus around +19 to +20.
The problem I am seeing here is that they almost cannot hit an average level 15 party anymore. My players in CotC have just reached this level and everybody who is statted as a frontliner sports about an AC of 37 to 40.
Yeah, I know about tactics such as flanking and ambushes, but even so, the vast majority of these encounters will be only challenging in the sense of how much time it costs me to draw up the map and play out these already over-before-they-began encounters.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that it would seem preferable to me to not throw that many time-consuming mook encounters into the AP's, but to rather use the mooks in fights with bigger bads, so that the action economy is not so slanted as normally in the fights where the party is normally alone with one big bad guy. I just had a fight one week ago in my soon-to-end CotCT campaign where I combined five statted encounters into one and that just challenged my players enough to make the fight seem a little more fair to the opponents. They still lost very thoroughly.
My guess is:
1.Sometimes PC's need easy encounters to lower the tension2.Even low level encounters eat up resources, and often players lose track of how much of their resources are being eaten away because the encounters are so easy. This sets them for when they turn the corner and walk into a boss fight. Had they been fighting respectable opponents they would be on their toes more, and maybe even conserved better to make sure they had enough for whatever was coming next.
edit:ninja'd by Mr.Jacobs
This adventure doesn't expect the PCs are going to have much of a chance to stop and catch their breath and resupply/restore strength. The large number of lower CR threads are indeed meant to wear down the PCs by attrition, but they also serve another VERY important role that is often overlooked.
They help make the PCs feel like they're finally real badasses.
If every single encounter is constructed to challenge the party equally, then that first tense fight against the kobolds in the 1st level adventure feels no different, tension wise, than the last tense fight against the demon army or whatever. By including low CR encounters, the PCs get a chance to use their powers and actually FEEL like they've become high level, not only because they're mowing through foes that have a tough time hurting them, but because they're doing that to foes that, a few adventures back, were a tough fight.
If you're on some sort of schedule and have to finish the AP by a set real-life date, then you should probably consider omitting these lesser encounters, but keep in mind that by doing so you're robbing your players of a chance to actually feel tough. When you DO run these encounters, pay close attention to how your players are enjoying them. If they're bored, then by all means skip similar encounters. But if the players are having a blast killing all those mooks and chumps... then the game's working as it should.
All noted. I guess it is also in large parts me finishing up my current campaign ( CotCT ) and the PC's have just reached level 15 last week, where this adventure just begins. Given how the Paladin of the group sports a AC of 39, the Inquisitor AC 34 ( without the AC judgement, which he *always* uses ) and the Druid AC 38, it has become very frustrating to try to even hit them with swarms of Grey Maidens with attack bonuses of +18.
The main problem for us is not having to finish the campaign at a certain date, but that we only play four hours a week, due to work and travel constraints for many members of our group. As such, superflouos encounters really are a drag, as it feels as if we haven't advanced a bit in the plot for a week. That is also another explanation why I like to combine encounters, besides the challenge for the PC's.
Having a mop-up encounter is quite nice every once in a while, but having several of them in short succession seems too much.
We are playing through the city of seven spears right now and my party are ninth level. A good 80% of all encounters I rarely hit any of my pc's who has an average of around AC 25 with slightly higher AC's for the magus and paladin. My players are finding the constant encounters with low level critters pretty uninspiring. It is OK with a routine encounter every once in a while but after the tenth encounter fighting CR 1 vegepygmies they get kind of old.
I am having a problem finding the right balance to challenge my pc's. They seem to make most of their saves and except for a few really lucky rolls on my part I have barely been able to challenge the pc's at all. The four death's I have had in the AP so far has come from absurdly lucky rolls on my part in encounters that weren't suppossed to be very deadly (except for one time against three chimeras).
I have noticed that certain creatures in part 5 and 6 seems really low powered for CR 15 creatures (the Tessalhydras and the snake guardian thing in the temple in thousand fangs comes to mind). My pc's could probably take one of those down already (although it would have been a hard fight I am sure).
While I can see the reasoning behind these encounters (grinding down the pc's resources and giving them some moments to just trash through some enemies without breaking a sweat), I think that there are way to many of these types of encounters and they get old pretty fast.
I have also noticed that there are extremely few encounters with EL higher than the APL. In my homebrew campaigns I was constantly hitting my players with cr+1-+3 encounters at higher levels and they made it through most of them just fine although it took a bit of teamwork. The pc's really felt like they were accomplishing something because the encounters were challenging. My boss encounters were EL+4-+6 and yes they were deadly, but the pc's really had to bring their A game to succeed and it felt much more rewarding for them when they did.
Grinding low level foes is OK in video games but it can get pretty tedious and take a lot of time in pen and paper rpgs. I have tried to spice up the low level encounters by using tactics and terrain and it helps a bit, but when the flanking, flying, stealthing mooks still need a 20 to hit it gets really frustrating.
With mobs of low-level foes, you can have them use "aid another" to try and improve their hit bonuses. Or work for flanking or tactical bonuses (have them use teamwork feats, why not?).
The other thing they can do is try to fight long enough that one of them can flee to alert the Big Boss. They're tripwires, not no-pass barricades.
Because it's a fundamental misreading of the game to expect all encounters to match the PCs' level.
I'd settle for the opponents being able to hit the players at all.
It's not the job of the encounters to hit the palyers. It's the job of the encounters to hit the characters.
It's YOUR job to hit the players, and if you can'y do that, you probably need a different thread. : }
Player perspective:
James is right on the money. You are severely under-equipped in the armor department in that AP.
I am a front-liner sporting a base AC of 23 at level 9. That is LOWER than the iconic rogue or cleric at the same level. Any thug monster of CR7+ easily hit me on a 10 unless I start fighting defensively and buff (which we obviously tend to do in order to survive), getting it to 26-29 depending on the casters, in which case the bruiser monsters need a 12 or so. I am still wearing the crummy Breastplate +1 I bought in Eleder 4 levels ago.
If we get hit with level-appropriate encounters, we start dying, is my experience. The chimeras; PC death. Super decapitation parrots; PC death.
@Mortagon: I make all my saves, the rest not so much, unless we are talking about CR2-5 mooks, in which case we should be making the saves, no?
And as a paladin/monk with cha20, good dex and con, and traits to bolster saves, I am expecting to make most anything level-appropriate on a 5+.
But, yeah, the AC is low, and not looking like it will reverse anytime soon, as I have yet to see a single set of good armor dropped. So unless we "meta-game" a little and cast planar ally to go shopping for us, Greater Teleporting across the globe in hunt of the gear we need, it's gonna stay low.
This adventure doesn't expect the PCs are going to have much of a chance to stop and catch their breath and resupply/restore strength. The large number of lower CR threads are indeed meant to wear down the PCs by attrition, but they also serve another VERY important role that is often overlooked.
They help make the PCs feel like they're finally real badasses.
If every single encounter is constructed to challenge the party equally, then that first tense fight against the kobolds in the 1st level adventure feels no different, tension wise, than the last tense fight against the demon army or whatever. By including low CR encounters, the PCs get a chance to use their powers and actually FEEL like they've become high level, not only because they're mowing through foes that have a tough time hurting them, but because they're doing that to foes that, a few adventures back, were a tough fight.
If you're on some sort of schedule and have to finish the AP by a set real-life date, then you should probably consider omitting these lesser encounters, but keep in mind that by doing so you're robbing your players of a chance to actually feel tough. When you DO run these encounters, pay close attention to how your players are enjoying them. If they're bored, then by all means skip similar encounters. But if the players are having a blast killing all those mooks and chumps... then the game's working as it should.
All noted. I guess it is also in large parts me finishing up my current campaign ( CotCT ) and the PC's have just reached level 15 last week, where this adventure just begins. Given how the Paladin of the group sports a AC of 39, the Inquisitor AC 34 ( without the AC judgement, which he *always* uses ) and the Druid AC 38, it has become very frustrating to try to even hit them with swarms of Grey Maidens with attack bonuses of +18.
The main problem for us is not having to finish the campaign at a certain date, but that we only play four hours a week, due to work and travel...
With a defensive minded group it will become a bit tedious, and I suggest DM's swapping out some of the mobs for a single more powerful opponent. I think most sessions last about 6 hours, and many groups still don't optimize a whole lot. That makes a big difference. Once I got my fellow players on board with striving for a high AC and saves they saw the change in how the game worked.
It's not the job of the encounters to hit the palyers. It's the job of the encounters to hit the characters.
It's YOUR job to hit the players, and if you can'y do that, you probably need a different thread. : }
Ouch, hoisted by my own petard. :D
Player perspective:
James is right on the money. You are severely under-equipped in the armor department in that AP.
I am a front-liner sporting a base AC of 23 at level 9. That is LOWER than the iconic rogue or cleric at the same level. Any thug monster of CR7+ easily hit me on a 10 unless I start fighting defensively and buff (which we obviously tend to do in order to survive), getting it to 26-29 depending on the casters, in which case the bruiser monsters need a 12 or so. I am still wearing the crummy Breastplate +1 I bought in Eleder 4 levels ago.
If we get hit with level-appropriate encounters, we start dying, is my experience. The chimeras; PC death. Super decapitation parrots; PC death.
@Mortagon: I make all my saves, the rest not so much, unless we are talking about CR2-5 mooks, in which case we should be making the saves, no?
And as a paladin/monk with cha20, good dex and con, and traits to bolster saves, I am expecting to make most anything level-appropriate on a 5+.
But, yeah, the AC is low, and not looking like it will reverse anytime soon, as I have yet to see a single set of good armor dropped. So unless we "meta-game" a little and cast planar ally to go shopping for us, Greater Teleporting across the globe in hunt of the gear we need, it's gonna stay low.
I was under the impression that you could get stuff with the other expeditions? Well, and teleport does solve all those problems.
I was under the impression that you could get stuff with the other expeditions? Well, and teleport does solve all those problems.
Well, in my opinion, having teleport dramatically changes the Serpent's Skull campaign, since PCs can teleport to Katapesh/Westcrown pretty easily and resupply at only lvl 9 (sure, they'll use a couple of days, but that's no big deal). But not all groups have teleport and in my group we have specifically stated that noone is going to get it, to keep "the feel" of being out in the wilds. And I don't think the latter parts of the AP was designed with a Greater Teleporting party in mind.
If your players are happy with this, then it's okay.
My own players would give me what-for if I'd told them that they couldn't get teleport or any other method of rapid travel. ^^
I was under the impression that you could get stuff with the other expeditions? Well, and teleport does solve all those problems.Well, in my opinion, having teleport dramatically changes the Serpent's Skull campaign, since PCs can teleport to Katapesh/Westcrown pretty easily and resupply at only lvl 9 (sure, they'll use a couple of days, but that's no big deal). But not all groups have teleport and in my group we have specifically stated that noone is going to get it, to keep "the feel" of being out in the wilds. And I don't think the latter parts of the AP was designed with a Greater Teleporting party in mind.
Just put a time limit on certain parts of the adventure. That way it is a "sure you can teleport, but do you really want to do it". That means the characters only teleport in actual emergencies, so it may be better to allow someone to die than to go back to the big city. An arbitrary you can't teleport won't work for many groups and level 9 is about the halfway point of the adventure so it is not so bad.
I didn't mean to say "you should all ban teleportation", and I apologize if it reads like that. What I meant to say is that there's a big difference between a group with teleport and one without. And considering the "wilderness-theme" of the AP, it wouldn't surprize me to see a group without an arcane spellcaster. As such, the GM and the players should be aware of how just one (or two) spells can impact the campaign in a big way.
And a lvl 13 wizard with Greater Teleport can easily teleport to Katapesh with a bag of holding filled with a bunch of loot and get back the same day. The only real delay would be the time you as a GM would rule that he needs to sell all the gear (this is assuming a very liberal magic economy policy, of course). He can even bring the entire party to speed up "shopping". In fact, they can do it in small time increments over several days, the only "resource cost" is two 7th lvl spell slots for the wizard.
I'm not saying this is a "bad playstyle", I'm just saying that the gear composition of a lvl 13 group in Serpent's Skull would be RADICALLY different between a "teleporting group" and a "stationary group".
If your players are happy with this, then it's okay.
My own players would give me what-for if I'd told them that they couldn't get teleport or any other method of rapid travel. ^^
Well it is a pre-written module in my opinion a DM should always modify a module to suit the characters, you can not like everything and I imagine the adventure is by default taking into account teleport as an ability, that many groups will not have.
I would not go sofar to punsih the players for putting defensive first, they are getting what they are investing in, if the enemies can not hit them feel free to let the mooks retreat. If the inquisitor is using his judgement in every CR 10 or 11 encounter that alone is a waste of resources in my opinion, by dragging a single CR 15 encounter out in 4 CR 11 encounters he uses 4 times the number of judgements already.
I'm not saying this is a "bad playstyle", I'm just saying that the gear composition of a lvl 13 group in Serpent's Skull would be RADICALLY different between a "teleporting group" and a "stationary group".
I wasn't insinuating that it was a "bad playstyle", only that my own players would protest quite loudly. :p
Well, having AC lower then the iconics is quite an acheivement, because the iconics, as written, would get their arses chopped.
Valeros can't even make use of his Fighter Dex bonus advantage...and how is he using a RIng of Force Shield while wielding an off hand weapon???
The theif's armor means she's giving up 2 pts of Dex bonus...
the mage STILL doesn't have a 20 AC, and is using rays he'll be lucky to hit with...
They violate all the pricing/gear guidelines, buying up pricey primary items and ignoring the smart ways to increase their own AC. Valeros doesn't have a +Nat Armor booster, a dex booster, or even a +5 cloak. But he's wearing a ring for a +2 shield bonus which is actually better then him using a shortsword +3 in his off hand, except you can't use a shield and an off hand weapon. Oh, and he's got a +5 ring/prot..wth? And he's still waving around a +4 sword and can't bypass dr/alignment, despite it being on so much stuff he fights.
The mage has a low AC and no concealment/miss spells or magic items to supplement it.
The cleric might have a problem in spell choices, but unlike the wizard, those can be fixed easily.
I've always thought of iconics as an example of characters to play/run through an adventure. they definitely weren't going to be like that in this adventure.
And the above poster is right...you aren't going to get loot gear to use to level up your AC. If you don't sell and buy, you're going to be going into the higher levels hugely reliant on buff spells.
And Teleport isn't among Ezren's spells listed...
==Aelryinth
Well, having AC lower then the iconics is quite an acheivement, because the iconics, as written, would get their arses chopped.
Valeros can't even make use of his Fighter Dex bonus advantage...and how is he using a RIng of Force Shield while wielding an off hand weapon???
The theif's armor means she's giving up 2 pts of Dex bonus...
the mage STILL doesn't have a 20 AC, and is using rays he'll be lucky to hit with...
They violate all the pricing/gear guidelines, buying up pricey primary items and ignoring the smart ways to increase their own AC. Valeros doesn't have a +Nat Armor booster, a dex booster, or even a +5 cloak. But he's wearing a ring for a +2 shield bonus which is actually better then him using a shortsword +3 in his off hand, except you can't use a shield and an off hand weapon. Oh, and he's got a +5 ring/prot..wth? And he's still waving around a +4 sword and can't bypass dr/alignment, despite it being on so much stuff he fights.
The mage has a low AC and no concealment/miss spells or magic items to supplement it.
The cleric might have a problem in spell choices, but unlike the wizard, those can be fixed easily.
I've always thought of iconics as an example of characters to play/run through an adventure. they definitely weren't going to be like that in this adventure.
And the above poster is right...you aren't going to get loot gear to use to level up your AC. If you don't sell and buy, you're going to be going into the higher levels hugely reliant on buff spells.
And Teleport isn't among Ezren's spells listed...
==Aelryinth
He is right there are virtually no magical armor to be found within this AP and civilization is very far away leaving shopping as a valid option only at the higher levels of play. However I still need a nat. 20 to hit in most of the encounters because with buffs and whatnot the pc's AC is steadily 3-5 higher most of the time.
How do you PCs all have an AC of 40 odd?
I don't play much at those high of levels, so I'm not terribly familiar with how the number should look, but that seems insanely high. Can I have a breakdown?
@OP: Consider a simple trick to up-the-oomph of your encounters: a single CR10 (level 11) bard adds +3 to attack (and damage). That is enough to make your minions hit on 15 to 17s - which given their number is enough to eat into the PCs resources.
Also, although its something universally despised, have a few enemies use sunder maneuvers. You don't need to destroy items - broken shields and armor already confer much less AC, and can take up valuable time/resources to repair.
How do you PCs all have an AC of 40 odd?
I don't play much at those high of levels, so I'm not terribly familiar with how the number should look, but that seems insanely high. Can I have a breakdown?
Warrior class at level 12 or so, given average WBL and time/access to obtain following items:
10 - Base12 - Mithril Full Plate+3 (even rangers can wear this, if they spend a feat)
5 - Heavy Shield+3 (optional, but for those who break 40, it is more or less a necessity) or at least ring of shielding (2) if two-handed
3- Amulet of Natural Armor +3
3 - Ring of Protection +3
3 - Dex16+ from base and belt of physical goodness
=36 or 33
Then you have buffs (Haste, Blessing of Fervor, etc), feats (dodge, shield focus, expertise etc) and misc bonuses from class options and what have you. The access of magical items is as important to a warrior as the access to new spells is for a wizard. It is what defines their viability as characters, and the absence of them makes you impaired. Unless, of course, you take this absence into consideration when you create the adventure.
Serpent Skull seems to take the absence of excellent AC into consideration, as most encounters are chump CR mooks in greater numbers. Seems an average encounter in part 3 (lv7-10) was 4-8 CR2-5 combat baddies, which means they have low saves compared to fewer elite, lower AC, lower to-hit and so forth. As previously stated, I have atrocious AC for a front-line combatant of my level, but get into the passable area with smite bonuses, buffs and such, making solo monsters of CR=APL require at least a 12-15 to hit, and a solo bruiser hit easily (<10) on the first blow, but not so easily on secondaries. Which I think is about right. A gaggle of mooks (CR=APL-4 or lower) should NOT hit a dedicated warrior on anything but 18-20 unless they are using expensive cheese to hit (bane of whatever you happen to be arrows, overly expensive potions/scrolls compared to wealth etc, items that makes the players realize that these bad-guys were designed with the players in mind, and had no ecology or reason to be there except to slap them in the face, which is fine if you are running Golarion as the high magic setting system demands it to be, but would piss me off something severe in a campaign where magic item availability is strictly enforced).