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Oh, yeah and if you go to Mass, pick an old person that you can see and do whatever they do. There's usually a lot of standing/sitting/kneeling and the old people usually know what to do... years of being Catholic teaches you tricks.
but not the 'why' of it. Which I deem, from many talks with Sebastian over the years, would be much more helpful. Going through the motions does not a christian make, let alone a Catholic.
And if you fart in church, you'll sit in your own pew!
EDIT: Sorry, old catholic school joke. *hangs head in shame*
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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but not the 'why' of it. Which I deem, from many talks with Sebastian over the years, would be much more helpful. Going through the motions does not a christian make, let alone a Catholic.
If you want the why, that's a longer post. And proves that understanding why doesn't make you a Catholic either. ;)
(I taught catechism. While being agnostic. Education does not equate faith.)
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but not the 'why' of it. Which I deem, from many talks with Sebastian over the years, would be much more helpful. Going through the motions does not a christian make, let alone a Catholic.If you want the why, that's a longer post. And proves that understanding why doesn't make you a Catholic either. ;)
(I taught catechism. While being agnostic. Education does not equate faith.)
We could go round and round on this. In interest of keeping this thread going on a positive note I will no longer respond to this sort of jab.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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We could go round and round on this. In interest of keeping this thread going on a positive note I will no longer respond to this sort of jab.
What jab? It's the truth. I was raised Catholic, served as an usher for seven years, taught catechism to third graders when I was 15. All the while, I didn't believe in Catholicism. It didn't stop me from finding the ritual aspect to be beautiful and interesting and terribly cool. I loved the history, the pagentry and the theology. I just didn't believe it to be literally true. I'm sorry, but it wasn't meant as a jab. It's my life.
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Sebastion thank you for starting this thread. Faith is such a personal thing and for everyone it is so different so it is good to read what everyone has placed down here and open that dialogue.
For me I am an Episcopalian which is not much different from being Roman Catholic many of the same traditions are upheld as in the Roman Catholic Church to give you a reference point Sebastian.(As a caveat my experience with Roman Catholic services were from my exwifes family were all Roman Catholics and so I would attend church and noticed alot of the same readings and same activities which took place in both services. But I digress.)
I have found faith much later in life. When I was younger my father with take my sister to church and my mother took me to the saltmarshes to study horseshoe crabs; she attends church on high holidays but describes herself as a Darwinist rather than Episcopalian. So I grew up challenging the religion and what I felt it stood for. Yet somewhere along the line when I decided to get married I found myself being drawn into religion and trying to find out what it meant to me. I got very involed with the church I got married. Yet when we moved away I was not able to attend church there and was not able to find a simuliar feeling in any of the churches I attended in the area I lived.
I more recently within the last 2 years of so began another soul searching venture. It was predicated to a tradegy in my life and I began thinking of religion and faith and perhaps my life was missing it. I have since found another church I love just as much if not more than the previous one. I gain a sense of calm when I am there a connection to a higher power however people want to take that. My faith is that the world is inherently good and that so are people. I think that can change but I have always been a half full guy. I enjoy the seeing the good that is done by my church; the mercy, giving, charity going out of their way to help others who are in distress and making a difference in their lives. Even if it is a small group whose lives are changed I believe that ever little bit can help. I also believe it can cascade to further changes, naive perhaps but isn't that is what is great I believe in it and it works for me. Not sure if this helps you on your own journey Sebastion but perhaps it may. I would suggest you investigate many religions and see what maybe right and comfortable to you. You may find the Roman Catholic Church you orginally knew is the right fit ... you may find something else is. Good Luck and ask many questions and talk to as many people as you can.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Color me FLOORED. This thread has been actually civil for an entire page. As promised, I will post about my own religious experience.
I was raised Christian in the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America (PCUSA), a relatively liberal Presbyterian denomination. My parents were conservative Christian, and our church was fairly conservative within the denomination, like most other small, rural PCUSA churches. I would characterize my religious upbringing as vanilla Protestant.
After stereotypically rebellious teenage years, I went to a Southern Baptist university near where I grew up. It wasn't a conscious decision to go to a religious university: I was trying to stay nearby because of a girl, plus they offered me a full ride scholarship. Near the end of my freshman year, I became friends with some deeply committed Christians. I had never really abandoned, nor questioned, the beliefs I had been taught as a child. Naturally, higher education caused us all to question our beliefs and gave us a desire to work toward conclusions about what we believed to be true about God, the world, ourselves and our place in it, etc. So we talked--a lot. We read books, studied the Bible, and had a lot of long, deep conversations. We used the Socratic method: we'd propose hypotheses for discussions, examine the underlying assumptions, take ideas to their logical conclusions just to see where they led, strip away irrelevancies, and so forth. We shot holes in a lot of different ideas, and as best we could, we formed our beliefs out of what was left standing. Many of us reached similar conclusions; some of us reached very different ones. We saw plenty of theologically liberal friends go conservative, and not a few conservative friends drift more and more liberal. I was a little surprised to discover that the ideas I was left holding were not very different from those I'd been taught as a child. In fact, I became more strongly Presbyterian than I had been before, in the sense that I more strongly held to historically Presbyterian Calvinist/Reformation theology. FWIW, at that time in my life, I was also much more fervent and devout in my faith than I am now.
Which is actually how I left the PCUSA. This is too public a forum to go into details, but the congregation in which I grew up failed to deal with a situation in which it not only had moral authority but also moral responsibility to intervene. I began attending a PCA (Presbyterian Church in America, a more conservative Presbyterian church) with one of my professors. Attending this little shopfront church were two of my lit professors, two law professors, the undergraduate dean, and a whole passel of other highly-educated and very intelligent people. Church services there were very intellectually fulfilling. My experiences there are one reason I get a little upset when someone insinuates that Christians must be superstitious or irrational. I've since moved and now attend a PCA church closer to my home.
As for my personal faith experience, I'd characterize myself as a Christian, but I'm a poor one. I'm very prideful and at times I can be incredibly selfish. I am frequently critical and spiteful toward my fellow man. I do not spend as much of my time, money, and effort on the work of the kingdom of heaven as I should. I've done plenty of things I regret. I have doubts about my faith--but that makes me a typical believer, not a bad one; doubts are part of the experience of a life of faith. Nonetheless, I am a believer. Across two thousand years, I can feel a unity of experience with Paul, who encourages Christians to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling," and with the father in Mark 9:24 who cried out, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief."
Sebastian, if you want to believe but just can't swallow some things, I think you are wise to seek out religious experience anyways. Someday, someone might say something to you that you just had never considered, or that puts some small thing in a little different perspective, that may change your mind or knock out the last "stumbling-blocks" to belief. At the very least you will learn something more about the Christian beliefs that form a tremendously important part of the ideological underpinnings of Western civilization. Nonetheless, I trust God when he says in Deut 4:29 that "you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul." I would also counsel you that seeking God intellectually will be fruitless if you do not also seek him in action. By trying (and failing, and succeeding, by degrees) to live according to the teachings of Christ as you best understand them, even as you struggle to accept or reject them, you will learn more about the faith experience than you ever possibly could by any catechism or Bible study. Also remember that even Christians do not fully understand God: "we know in part... we see through a mirror dimly." Christianity does not require you to show up without reservations or questions.
I'd be remiss if I didn't also invite you to visit a PCA church. EDIT: You can find a local PCA church in the PCA Church Directory. Like Catholic churches, many also have catechism classes or new member classes. If you don't consider yourself a believer, or if you're not a member in good standing in an evangelical church, you'll be asked to refrain from accepting communion. For a first-time visitor, the church may give you a welcome packet (mine gives you a loaf of really good bread) and ask if they can pay you a visit to get to know you better, perhaps by filling out a card. My recently retired pastor always used to tell new people that if they didn't want a visit, that was OK and he wouldn't be offended at all. If you do want a visit, that's a good time to explain yourself. Of course they are going to want to convert you, but the best churches will respect if you are just there to learn. If you live near a college town, the PCA church that has the most college students will probably be used to having a lot of folks like you in the congregation.
P.S.: Congratulations for coaxing me to discuss my personal beliefs publicly and concretely. I usually prefer to discuss Christian beliefs abstractly, so that if someone says something I find personally offensive, I can choose not to view it as a personal attack.
Civility! Woot!
I was not raised religious in any sense of the word - never went to church, and the first time I went it was because I was invited to by a friend. I had no idea how to look up anything in the Bible (though I quickly learned), I didn't "get" church.
As I got older, I began to get a sense of "things bigger than myself" and brought on by the fact that I was living overseas with a former Gilbertine monastery nearby as well as the plethora of Neolithic sites in-country, I self-studied a lot of religions and belief systems. For a time, I identified myself as Wiccan, but ultimately rejected it as I felt it was too female-centric for my tastes.
As I got older, I have pretty much settled down on my beliefs, and it really comes down to "be excellent to each other", karma (for me, the concept that good and ill acts will come back to you), and beholding the wonder that is inherent in the workings of the Universe (from how a lumpy mass of gray matter makes us function to the fermentation of bread dough). I consider myself more spiritual than religious.
For me, spiritual and religious decisions are very personal - these are answers that need to made over time, and not forced upon oneself by parents or other organizations.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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As I got older, I have pretty much settled down on my beliefs, and it really comes down to "be excellent to each other", karma (for me, the concept that good and ill acts will come back to you), and beholding the wonder that is inherent in the workings of the Universe (from how a lumpy mass of gray matter makes us function to the fermentation of bread dough). I consider myself more spiritual than religious.For me, spiritual and religious decisions are very personal - these are answers that need to made over time, and not forced upon oneself by parents or other organizations.
Any religion that quotes Bill & Ted gets an automatic plus in my book!
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Thanks again for sharing, everyone (though I do admit, I was hoping to get more posts relating to Christian/religious type of faith, rather than the secular variety, because I'm wary that the later could easily turn this thread into an unfriendly place for the former).
I have a question for y'all. Let's pretend for a moment I'm serious about wanting faith. I'm not sure that I am, largely as a result of my ginormous ego and related pridefulness.
I'm pondering becoming a Catholic. My Mom was nominally Catholic during my childhood, and actively Catholic during her childhood, so it is the religious group with which I most closely identify. How does one become a Catholic? May I attend services and participate in the church if I don't believe (and, truthfully, I still don't want to believe). I understand I can't take sacrament, and have no intent of doing so unless it is with faith, but am I precluded from being a member of the church if I don't believe in Jesus Christ?
People never believe me when I say it, but there's a significant part of me that wanted to be a priest. I could just never overcome that whole atheism thing.
I'll put in my two cents about becoming Catholic (having done so myself) but first let me throw this idea out. I'd highly recommend reading the Bible (if you haven't already and if so do so again) and being open to what God says to you while doing so BEFORE you attend any church. At least hit the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) to see how you feel about what Jesus actually said right from the source Himself.
Jesus talks smack, tears up vendor booths, weeps at the death of a friend, feels compassion for worn out fellow humans, goes to parties, touches lepers, and does many interesting things in addition to being the Son of God (His words not mine although I happen to believe Him). You'll also see what Jesus thought about the Old Testament, whether He believed in Adam and Jonah for example and see Him explain in His own words how the Old Testament pointed towards the Good News of His arrival (which is now the New Testament).
Also, I learned before my study of the Bible that the idea of novel writing hadn't been invented yet when the Gospels were written. So while a modern novel could invent the details you see in the Gospels, that novel writing skill just didn't exist at the time the Gospels were written. In one passage, Jesus is just drawing in the sand. No reason, just something any of us would do while sitting on the beach.
In a novel written today, this detail would go unnoticed. But it makes the Gospel that much more real, that detail is something the author actually witnessed so he put in his recollection of Jesus's life.
After getting grounded in your own reading, as already mentioned, you become Catholic by attending classes, being baptized (if you aren't already), and being presented to the church (the priest pours really good-smelling oil on your head) usually at Easter or during Christmas.
If you want to know what the Church believes (you hear different things from different Catholics) check out the Catchism of the Catholic Church (I recommend doing this while going to a Catholic Church to double check anything you hear). I can look at the index in the back (gamers love books with indexes, right?) and look up sacraments for example.
I turn to that page and the offical Church stance is if you are a member and are baptized you have the right to take sacraments. I've been to some Catholic churches that ask non-Catholics to not take Communion and instead accept a blessing from the priest instead (or you could simply not go forward). Some Catholic churches just let anyone take Communion (based on the person's desire/conviction etc.).
Personally, I grew up Protestant unnattached, joined the Catholic church (my wife is a cradle Catholic), and finally found a Wesleyan church I like. I go where the message matches what I read in Scripture and where I can voice my questions/concerns.
What I personally glean from Scripture (directly from Jesus) is to love God, love your neighbor, and tell everyone you know the Good News (Jesus the Son of God died for all humans' sins). Any church using the handle Christian that matches up with that statement and bears fruit (which would be that people going to the church do similar things that Jesus did in the Gospels) is a church I'd be okay checking out.
If a church does something that doesn't match up with your reading of the Gospels, ask about it with the passage that concerns you in hand. If you get a good response and you're satisfied with it, stay, if you get an angry response or you're still concerned move on and keep looking for a church that listens to your questions/concerns and that fits your style.
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I'm in the US army and also a Combat Medic. For me, my faith is simply a part of who I am, but also a strength that can call on when things start going bad. It wasn't until a lot of bad things happened, (temporing/testing) that my belief and understanding really began to take hold. When I was in college, I was more of an agnostic tan nything. But a friend took me out to a park and we had a long talk about God and the things she said, and the way she understood them and passed them to me both really took hold and expanded my understanding.
That was a first step. I talked to others, different religions, atheists, others tha believe in God, but different ways like Jews and Muslims, Catholics, or Christains that don't go to a church, etc. . . and I grew in other small steps, and developed my own more.
A few years ago, my godson, a 2 year old whose parents where very close died, out of the blue. My faith, my understanding of what I understood, what I hastudied in the Bible and other texts (like the lost gospels, and had been able to choose wheither I agreed with or not, or helped to explain those things I did believe), and the fact that I did have a religious faith and someone to fall back on made me able to step up and help them through their grief a thousand more times than I would have been able to without.
When I went to "boot camp" for two months of "hell", and then 4 monthsof even more in AIT (medic training/boot camp 2), knowing that I had my faith, being able to pray/meditate on my issues and have a friend that knew it all and more, and able to help when I really needed it, not just when I wanted an easy out, made a lot of difference. It helped me progress as a person, physically, to meat more friends and to share and learn from their experiences, to again relate to others of different beliefs, and to experience real suffering that the Bible, prophets, apostles, and Jesus went through (in a limited, non-lethal sense :) ), was another step, and as I go through it, the experience I gain from not only past steps, but current ones also grows.
As a Medic, now people come to me for moral/morale issues, crisises of faith (even non-religious sorts like faith in humanity, in the army, etc. . .), talk bout their troubles in a way that they can't with others, and I hear and see things that only reinforce my understanding that there is a God, and that God has both a plan for me and my best interest in mind in a thousand way I don't understand. Last minute little saves out of inconcievable places, things working out perfectly on their own, the right tool being found or returned at just the right time so that it wasn't given out or used by someone else who really didn't need it.
I'm a Christian, but I am also looking into becoming jewish (convert), because I very much believe that the Old Testament needs to be understood more for a better understanding of and practice of my faith. At the same time, I don't go to any specific church. When I do go, I usually pick a random one and go and enjoy it, or some sort of Bible or faith discussion. In the army, I have very little time to go to religious events, but to me, being religious has nothing to do with my faith.
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I'm a Christian, but I am also looking into becoming jewish (convert), because I very much believe that the Old Testament needs to be understood more for a better understanding of and practice of my faith. At the same time, I don't go to any specific church. When I do go, I usually pick a random one and go and enjoy it, or some sort of Bible or faith discussion.
Sounds to me that you could benefit from a Messianic Jewish Congregation. We have one at our church. I've learned a lot from them and have a deep appreciation for different aspects of the Old Testament (especially) that are easily missed normally.
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Yes, I've been studying with one (via podcast David Lavine) for a while, but I haven't been able to locate an actual church or group in my area. :) Thanks though.
I really enjoy how they explain a lot of things that Christians understand from a completel different historical sense, in my experience.
I was not raised in a religious household and any type of religion was derided as a drug for the masses.
My father thought it was funny to tell me the statue of "Iron Mike" at smoke bomb hill in Ft. Bragg,N.C. was a religious figure. I won't go into the colorfull details of mikes supposed miracles but lets just say that I found out the hard way how much parents can lie to you and that you should never trust what people say just because they say it.
Fast forward to elementary school, I was sick and tired of being picked on because I didn't go to any church. I had no idea what "hell" was but it scared the crap outta my kindergarden butt.
I was "on fire for christ" all through elementary and middle school. High school I was a very angry and confused young man that didn't understand why brett looked better in his football uniform than tina did in her cheerleading outfit.
I took my anger out on every body around me and became the worst high school bully ever.
I will say this, when I had the gun barrell in my mouth and was thinking about that trigger the image of my mother crying and not knowing why this had happened stopped me more than the thought of "hell".
At that time religion was something I used as a weapon, If I needed a job I was an instant christian that went to whatever church.
I won't even go into my "satanic" period except that it quickly proved more hollow than anything I have ever experianced before or since.
After I moved to colorado and feel in love with the beauty of unspoiled nature I wanted to just enjoy that. I met a nice guy and he was wiccan and he shared his faith with me but more importantly he gave me the tools to discover my own faith.
I know some people believe that wicca is overly female oriented but to me it just makes sense and brings me the peace I need to get through the tough times.
Unless someone asks me about my faith I don't share or postulise because I have always been taught that when the student is ready a teacher will be provided, I have helped a few students and have gotten more from helping them that they did from being led to me.
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Civility! Woot!
I was not raised religious in any sense of the word - never went to church, and the first time I went it was because I was invited to by a friend. I had no idea how to look up anything in the Bible (though I quickly learned), I didn't "get" church.
As I got older, I began to get a sense of "things bigger than myself" and brought on by the fact that I was living overseas with a former Gilbertine monastery nearby as well as the plethora of Neolithic sites in-country, I self-studied a lot of religions and belief systems. For a time, I identified myself as Wiccan, but ultimately rejected it as I felt it was too female-centric for my tastes.
As I got older, I have pretty much settled down on my beliefs, and it really comes down to "be excellent to each other", karma (for me, the concept that good and ill acts will come back to you), and beholding the wonder that is inherent in the workings of the Universe (from how a lumpy mass of gray matter makes us function to the fermentation of bread dough). I consider myself more spiritual than religious.
For me, spiritual and religious decisions are very personal - these are answers that need to made over time, and not forced upon oneself by parents or other organizations.
You forgot that Cookies are packages of heaven delivered to tummies.
This thread is for the many posters on the board who are faithful (and willing to share their faith) to describe how they found their faith, the difference it has made in their lives, or any similar stories about how they, individually, have been bettered by such faith.
Awesome thread.
I was raised in my faith (Christianity, of the Protestant flavor) but was never satisfied with a church until I was introduced (by my then girlfriend, now wife) to The Plymouth Brethren tradition.
In my humble opinion, the denomination which I am now part of is a set of true seekers after the will of God.
You forgot that Cookies are packages of heaven delivered to tummies.
I will not deny this. Food is a delightful thing, and the making and giving of it to somebody else, that ancient act of breaking bread with another, is something I hold in very high regard.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My father thought it was funny to tell me the statue of "Iron Mike" at smoke bomb hill in Ft. Bragg,N.C. was a religious figure.
My homeboy! I'm a Cumberland County native.
Also seeing Iron Mike can be a religious experience, especially when he's the turnaround point for a six mile run. "Hallelujah! Halfway... *gasp*"
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The last one being the CRD?This is an interesting thread.Much better then the last one.
Yes. The nose dive it took into some strange realm of misconceptions and bitter anger over semantics is more then I care to follow. A couple of posters write walls of text that have little to do with belief and more to do with subtle ridicule of any who see things an Iota away from them. I will never understand such bigotry.
I keep meaning to try to write on this one to the OP query. Words fail me at times and this is one of them. Some seem to think that faith lacks any reason or forethought. I am just the opposite, while I lost my trust in religious institutions for a while, I cannot ignore the truth that I have witnessed. Expressing it is much harder than I am used to, being fairly quiet on many subjects in person. This being quite personal on many levels.
Words fail me at times and this is one of them. Some seem to think that faith lacks any reason or forethought. I am just the opposite, while I lost my trust in religious institutions for a while, I cannot ignore the truth that I have witnessed. Expressing it is much harder than I am used to, being fairly quiet on many subjects in person. This being quite personal on many levels.
Indeed.
Faith is its own reason.
Words fail me at times and this is one of them. Some seem to think that faith lacks any reason or forethought. I am just the opposite, while I lost my trust in religious institutions for a while, I cannot ignore the truth that I have witnessed. Expressing it is much harder than I am used to, being fairly quiet on many subjects in person. This being quite personal on many levels.Indeed.
Faith is its own reason.
+1
I lost faith in organized religion for a while, until I learned to separate faith from church/people.
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Words fail me at times and this is one of them. Some seem to think that faith lacks any reason or forethought. I am just the opposite, while I lost my trust in religious institutions for a while, I cannot ignore the truth that I have witnessed. Expressing it is much harder than I am used to, being fairly quiet on many subjects in person. This being quite personal on many levels.Indeed.
Faith is its own reason.
+1
I lost faith in organized religion for a while, until I learned to separate faith from church/people.
It was not just that, I learned over time that while there maybe a few bad apples its does not in and of itself condemn an entire group.
Here's a good quick link about food that is a good reflection of my thoughts.
There is a God.
The Bible is his word.
Jesus lived, died and was raised.
Jesus is the Son of God and also Man.