I guess what I"m trying to say is that I was specifically rebutting the "This is the dark ages!" comment. It's not. There's magic. That changes a lot of societal dynamics.
It could do so, but is it necessary that it do so? Could it actually make things worse? I think the answers to those questions are no and yes, respectively.
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It could do so, but is it necessary that it do so? Could it actually make things worse? I think the answers to those questions are no and yes, respectively.
I guess what I"m trying to say is that I was specifically rebutting the "This is the dark ages!" comment. It's not. There's magic. That changes a lot of societal dynamics.
I don't see any way that the existance of magic of any strength wouldn't change societal dynamics. For better or worse? That's a loaded question. For whom? How do you define better? Worse?
I don't picture Old Deadeye as being intentionally chauvanistic. He's just a grumpy old farmer who thinks thinks should be done a certain way in order for simple people to live simple lives. He's Archie Bunker with a longbow. Got it, Meathead?
Great. Now I'm not going to be able to get this out of my head. Thanks man, you just gave me a GREAT idea for my next Kingmaker game!!!!
stuffI guess what I"m trying to say is that I was specifically rebutting the "This is the dark ages!" comment. It's not. There's magic. That changes a lot of societal dynamics.
I see the standard level of technology as Renaissance... for the Peasantry that didn't mean much they were still doing that same thing that they were in the dark-ages. Even now village life is unchanged in remote places.
Meh, it always struck me as kind of odd that Erastil was LG anyways. I always conceptualize the good of hunting as somewhere around the CN alignment.
Well, he's the god of hunting, as well as farming, to support your family and community at large.
He's not the god of "The Hunt", those fey revelries where you either join in or become prey.
Erastil is against hunting for sport. You don't kill an animal unless you want to use as much as possible of it - flesh for food, hide for clothes etc.
Hunting for fun is not part of his portfolio, and he actively opposes it.
I agree that the article on Erastil in the AP could have been better writtenI don't. Where are the page-long threads about Iomedae? Not that she's bad, but Erastil is something new in D&D-land: A multidimensional deity. Not a bland, two-dimensional representation of the alignment he is supposed to be the "poster child" for.
He feels more real that way. Like this was a religion that actually evolved somewhere, instead something made up for a game.
And people argue about it at length. Shows that the material is interesting.
Paizo's good at that sort of thing.
After the thesis you wrote in response to Chris Kenney, I guess I should be flattered that you objected only to one line of my post.
Have to disagree and stand by what I wrote, though. If the AP article was intended as an op-ed designed to be provocative and get people to discuss an issue, I would agree with you whole-heartedly. However, my understanding is that it is intended to provide information to players and GMs about Erastil that will be useful in gameplay. As such, I think it definitely could have been better. Interesting and useful are too different things. It may well be the first, without being the second. I think the fact that many people on this thread have completely taken a completely different interpretation of the deity than you and I do is ample proof of that.
I agree with you that he is an interesting deity very different from the politically correct (and somewhat generic) norms. He is an old god, and in many ways even the pseudo-medieval world of Golarion has passed him by. He is opinionated, has strong principles and isn't shy about sharing them. None of this changes his basic benevolent nature, however.
He is definitely socially conservative in a way that no one would have blinked an eye at 50 years ago, but that is definitely controversial in the U.S. now. There are many people that have an instinctive negative reaction to social conservatism, and are ready to believe the worst of anyone who supports it. My guess would be that the PF/D&D community probably has more progressive freethinkers than social conservatives, and that colors perceptions. There are also many who remember vividly the attack by certain ignorant social conservatives on D&D back in the day. That's why I ask people to try and remove their real life social/political biases from the equation in considering Erastil.
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I'd join in this thread, but I'm busy, and Kaeyoss put my points so eloquently.
So I'll just leave this post here to bookmark this thread, for when some asymmetrically-haircutted, pierced-faced, pasty, sun-dodging, work-allergic, stick-boy hipster with zero life experience tries to spout off second-hand Spare Rib theories, thinking that pretending to be enlightened will impress their intended girlfriend so much, she'll have to let him into her knickers.*
Then I'll be there to witness her see through this pathetic ploy, treat him with contempt, and go off with a Real Man, who'll treat her like a Real Woman, as he cries anaemic, low-fat, Fair Trade tears down his translucent cheeks.
*see also the various "I'm so outraged, on someone else's behalf, at fantasy art" threads...**
**"Sincerity is the most important thing when courting a lady. And if you can fake that, you're in." - every right-on anti-sexist guy out there.
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Quote:
He’s not pretentious, and while he may be proud of his accomplishments....and a healthy wife....
And here's where the moral outrage starts becoming justified. However unintended and indirect, it refers to the man's wife as, at worst, property.
By that logic the man must be her slave as he is expected to provide her clothing, housing, food, and die to defend her if need be.
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I don't picture Old Deadeye as being intentionally chauvanistic. He's just a grumpy old farmer who thinks thinks should be done a certain way in order for simple people to live simple lives. He's Archie Bunker with a longbow. Got it, Meathead?Great. Now I'm not going to be able to get this out of my head. Thanks man, you just gave me a GREAT idea for my next Kingmaker game!!!!
I live to serve.
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I live to serve.I don't picture Old Deadeye as being intentionally chauvanistic. He's just a grumpy old farmer who thinks thinks should be done a certain way in order for simple people to live simple lives. He's Archie Bunker with a longbow. Got it, Meathead?Great. Now I'm not going to be able to get this out of my head. Thanks man, you just gave me a GREAT idea for my next Kingmaker game!!!!
Erastil **IS** Archie Bunker, as proven here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM
Why else do you think Erastil wants every farmer to own a longbow? If every farmer owns a longbow, the bandits won't dare attack them! :)
It's a CONSPIRACY-CY!!
I just find it funny that with all of the really bad stuff that can happen in most games a stable traditional family get so many offended and crying........
Eh, some of us have had bad encounters with people who hold extremely abusive/offensive views towards women, religions, nationalities, etc etc, and even though I personally find Erastil frustrating, but not overtly offensive, unfortunately the two ladies I play with find him teeth-grindingly irritating to the point their characters are actively anti-Erastil.
That said, people would probably turn around and lash out if a God was, say, racist, turning his or her face away from other races and nationalities.
And don't forget the Gods grant a wide variety of followers their powers. In Quaidra, Sarenrae is regarded as a cruel, harsh Goddess of the Sun who nonetheless demands her followers offer courtesy and a second chance to those they meet, whereas in other nations, her aspect as a Goddess of Redemption and Healing takes priority over her Sun aspect, but she is seen as a 'Guiding Light'.
In extremely conservative countries, Erastil's clergy are likely extremely over-bearing and hide-bound by tradition, with no female ever being allowed to be a 'true' Cleric or Druid and the Clerics of Erastil probably have the social and cultural power to decide a great many things about life in their villages.
In less conservative countries, Erastil's clergy are likely to include a sizeable number of Females, although never a majority, and his Clerics are likely to be more open to new ideas, so long as they don't cause wide-spread social harm or disrupt the land, and their role would be advisors and guides, not leaders.
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I just find it funny that with all of the really bad stuff that can happen in most games a stable traditional family get so many offended and crying........Eh, some of us have had bad encounters with people who hold extremely abusive/offensive views towards women, religions, nationalities, etc etc, and even though I personally find Erastil frustrating, but not overtly offensive, unfortunately the two ladies I play with find him teeth-grindingly irritating to the point their characters are actively anti-Erastil.
and that's fine... they can play CG feminist worshippers of Desna if they want. That would make for fine roleplay.
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I just find it funny that with all of the really bad stuff that can happen in most games a stable traditional family get so many offended and crying........Eh, some of us have had bad encounters with people who hold extremely abusive/offensive views towards women, religions, nationalities, etc etc, and even though I personally find Erastil frustrating, but not overtly offensive, unfortunately the two ladies I play with find him teeth-grindingly irritating to the point their characters are actively anti-Erastil.
That said, people would probably turn around and lash out if a God was, say, racist, turning his or her face away from other races and nationalities.
And don't forget the Gods grant a wide variety of followers their powers. In Quaidra, Sarenrae is regarded as a cruel, harsh Goddess of the Sun who nonetheless demands her followers offer courtesy and a second chance to those they meet, whereas in other nations, her aspect as a Goddess of Redemption and Healing takes priority over her Sun aspect, but she is seen as a 'Guiding Light'.
In extremely conservative countries, Erastil's clergy are likely extremely over-bearing and hide-bound by tradition, with no female ever being allowed to be a 'true' Cleric or Druid and the Clerics of Erastil probably have the social and cultural power to decide a great many things about life in their villages.
In less conservative countries, Erastil's clergy are likely to include a sizeable number of Females, although never a majority, and his Clerics are likely to be more open to new ideas, so long as they don't cause wide-spread social harm or disrupt the land, and their role would be advisors and guides, not leaders.
Having a variety of racial pantheons kinda does the racism thing though.....
I'm still wondering who the "extremely chauvinistic mid-level cleric of Erastil" mentioned by the OP is supposed to be.
.
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.
.
- It can't be Jhod - who is neither "mid-level" nor depicted as being chauvinistic.
- I'm certain it's not the female (!) High Priestess from Tatzlford.
- There's an Erastil cleric listed in the Restov city stats, but nothing is said about him at all.
- The Erastil cleric from Varnhold is already dead.
So who is it?
I just find it funny that with all of the really bad stuff that can happen in most games a stable traditional family get so many offended and crying........Eh, some of us have had bad encounters with people who hold extremely abusive/offensive views towards women, religions, nationalities, etc etc, and even though I personally find Erastil frustrating, but not overtly offensive, unfortunately the two ladies I play with find him teeth-grindingly irritating to the point their characters are actively anti-Erastil.
This is actually very logical. Certainly more liberal, free-thinking women who feel constrained by traditional family roles would be expected to rebel against Erastil's teachings and might even find them offensive. My take is that Erastil himself would probably smile fondly at them, confident that they would find the error of their ways eventually and return to the fold, although I can see certain priests being more domineering or even actively oppressive.
Erastil should not be seen as "anti-woman" though. He just believes women have a specific (and not lesser) role to play in a healthy community.
Seriously, this is controversial stuff even in an advanced post-industrial nation like the U.S., where women are just as well-educated as men, in general. Every woman needs to make her own choices on the correct balance between career (adventuring) and kids and family, and there are plenty of people, including a lot of other women, prepared to criticize the choices she makes. It's a raw deal, and totally unfair, but it's a fact of current life. Not surprising to me that Golarion should be kind of similar.
I wouldn't play Erastil as the type of god who harshly criticizes women for making different choices, although he will certainly not be shy about about telling them what he thinks the right choice should be. Individual priests might be a different matter and vary considerably, but, as written, there are no out and out nasty chauvinist priests of Erastil in Kingmaker. If your GM is playing them that way, that's his choice, not the choice of the AP or world designers.
Now, we're going to pick up the Kingmaker Campaign ... and the new GM has pointed out Erastil is one of the most popular Gods in the region ... which has a few of us gritting our teeth and counting to ten. He's a good God for a country setting, but his attitude towards women, namely his 'stay home and have kids' irks the hell out of me personally, and I know two of our female gamers refuse to roll characters of his faith simply because he reminds them of the old-fashioned sexists who treated them and the rest of their class-mates so terribly during high-school and university.
Being one of the older gamers in the group (just turned 30) I tend to get leaned on alot with helping flesh out a campaign, and I know we're going to run into a mid-level Erastil Cleric who is going to be a very 'old school' follower, meaning extremely chauvinistic and dismissive of 'strong women' and expecting them to defer to a man at every opportunity. Now this Cleric has some decent punch to add to the campaign, but this NPC is also going to raise a lot of hackles from more 'modern' minded NPCs and the Players with his off-hand "Aw, just have some kids and leave it to the real heroes, darling." attitude.
Now I've pointed out to the GM that this will lead to a lot of conflict with the female Players, let alone the rest of us, but he's quite interested in the frustration factor for the PCs in dealing with a Lawful Good Cleric whom they just desperately want to beat the living...
There are a few things your party could do. You could leave him residing over a temple somewhere and not bring him along. But I think that there must be a way to change this stogy character's mindset. Just think, as a strong-willed female character, to be able to change someone's fundamental belief, even if it's only on the level of begrudging respect that would be really satisfying.
Plus, remember, this is Kingmaker and you can make your nation's patron god anyone you want. So if you can dictate the dogma of a religion you can make Erastil's church more feminist friendly. Especially if you can change this NPC's opinion and make him chief priest of your new nation.
Or you could just kill him in his sleep.
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Forgive my thread necromancy, but I'm curious. A year on, has anyone's fears actually surfaced into actual problems in the game?
For the past year, I've been playing a female paladin of Erastil in a Kingmaker PbP on these boards. I created her almost out of direct response to these threads, just as proof that it can be done. And you know what? Not only has she not met with horrible sexist opposition at every corner, but she's turned into one of my favorite characters I've ever played. There's also a female cleric of Erastil in the party - and while it took some creativity, it's entirely possible to create such characters that fit in perfectly with the campaign without having to change anything at all about Erastil's write-up.
As for the particular NPC in question from the OP, it made for an interesting RP opportunity but certainly not any sort of conflict. He was surprised to learn that my character was chosen as a paladin of Erastil, but gulped down his pride and decided he had to change his way of thinking.
Perhaps if you had looked at it in that way from the beginning - this is an interesting RP opportunity: how will our characters help him understand that Erastil isn't a sexist god? - this sort of thread would never have been created in the first place.
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Forgive my thread necromancy, but I'm curious. A year on, has anyone's fears actually surfaced into actual problems in the game?
For the past year, I've been playing a female paladin of Erastil in a Kingmaker PbP on these boards. I created her almost out of direct response to these threads, just as proof that it can be done. And you know what? Not only has she not met with horrible sexist opposition at every corner, but she's turned into one of my favorite characters I've ever played. There's also a female cleric of Erastil in the party - and while it took some creativity, it's entirely possible to create such characters that fit in perfectly with the campaign without having to change anything at all about Erastil's write-up.
As for the particular NPC in question from the OP, it made for an interesting RP opportunity but certainly not any sort of conflict. He was surprised to learn that my character was chosen as a paladin of Erastil, but gulped down his pride and decided he had to change his way of thinking.
Perhaps if you had looked at it in that way from the beginning - this is an interesting RP opportunity: how will our characters help him understand that Erastil isn't a sexist god? - this sort of thread would never have been created in the first place.
Good to hear Count. Thnx for sharing.