Recently my players and me discussed about exotic weapons.We took a look at the stats of the APG Falcata (d8, 19-20/x3 1H). The discussion raised after seeing a PC using it two-handed.
The weapon always felt "wrong" because of its stats, and we observed how progressively every PC at the table able to spend a feat on it will do it. It's clearly superior to every other sword.
Some of my player suggested to houserule it as "one handed only", mostly because the weapon is actually a big help for S&B and for two-weapon fighters (and because of the shape of the grip, so there is a fluff reason too).
Other players said that more weapons like falcata should exist because most exotics are lame. In the same book, take a look at the boomerang.
I'm somewhat in the middle (I think that the weapon is maybe too strong, but spend a feat to switch from a d8 to a d10 is weird - things like reach or bonus to maneuvers should be added to exotic weapons, when proper, to justify the feat).
What do you think?
It's pretty good, but I don't know about "every player should spend a feat to get it". I do agree that there should be better exotic weapons out there, seems to me that the only reason to spend a feat on a special weapon is roleplaying reasons right now.
17-20/x3 it's a lot for my gaming style - the party is big, full of meleers and casters support them hugely. A CaGM + Reckless Abandon heavy buffed Beast totem barbarian uses the weapon very efficenlty. A magus selected it and works very well.
The Paladin and Cavalier selected EWP Bastard Sword - sometimes the d10 pulls his weight because of low rolls, critical immunities, enlarge person and stuff. I just wonder if is enough. IMHO is not, they will ask me soon or later to retrain the feat for Falcata.
If I got it right, you think that the problem lies in other EW just being not so good..
If you haven't already checked it out, look at Kirth Girsen's Houserules thread. His houserules for weapons are genius and take care of problems like some exotics being superawesome and others being awful. Won't help if you're playing something like Pathfinder Society, of course, but if you're houseruling things for your home games, it's worth a look.
If you haven't already checked it out, look at Kirth Girsen's Houserules thread. His houserules for weapons are genius and take care of problems like some exotics being superawesome and others being awful. Won't help if you're playing something like Pathfinder Society, of course, but if you're houseruling things for your home games, it's worth a look.
Thank you - I will take a look - but I'm curious to know what people think of the weapon and of this disparity in general.
I remember that there was a thread about it immediately after APG came out. I wonder what happened in other gaming tables after a while :)
It's very good yes, possibly too good, but you are comparing it to a bastard sword, one of the least effective things you could spend a feat on, and one of the worst exotic weapons.
I don't think it's too good. It's not bad, but not overpowered, either. Sure, it's uncommon to have a weapon where both threat range and crit multiplier are increased, but both are raised once only.
I'm not sure whether I'd always choose this over a falchion.
Anyway, if there are problematic exotic weapons, it's not this one. It's the crappy ones.
The problem is that the weapon categories, and especially exotic weapons, are determined with two different criteria: One is "this weapon is too powerful to be martial", which is okay, but the other is "this weapon is uncommon. While the uncommon thing is a better definition of "exotic", the game stats should concentrate on the power, since exotic is always so subjective. For that Rokugani (or Tien, or whatever your people from your fantasy world's Japan are called) character, things like nun-chucks, katanas, and kamas are not at all exotic, but show them a rapier and they stare at it like a dog who's just been shown a card trick.
That's why I did some re-arranging. If it's not worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, it's not an exotic weapon.
And a lot of weapons have been eliminated altogether. There is no kama any more. If you want to wield a kama, take a sickle (a simple weapon with simple weapon stats) and call it a kama. Maybe your sickle/kama looks a bit differently, but it's still a kama.
Monk weapons are done differently, too.
I like KaeYoss' idea. Whenever I do a homebrew adventure, I always put out a "Player's Guide" that changes things like that.
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Bastard sword should be a martial weapon you can wield in one hand if you have at least 15 strength
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Yar!
It's clearly superior to every other sword.
...but is it really? Or is it that your players suddenly have a fascination with it and are all willing to spend a feat to use it. Is this weapon destroying your ability to run encounters?
for comparisons sake, I have determined the average basic DPR for a number of weapons. For a basic 'how does this weapon compare', I'm assuming non-masterwork, a target AC of 10, BAB +1, 18 str, and two-handing it. Unusually large sized weapons include the -2 (and -4 in one case) to hit for it being unusually sized in these calculations. In order from lowest to highest (of the weapons I sampled):
9.24 - Lance
9.24 - Sawtooth Sabre
9.66 - Rhoka
9.66 - Urumi
10.01 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
10.08 - Falcata
10.12 - Bastard Sword
10.12 - Dwarven WarAxe
10.12 - Falchion
10.12 - Scythe
10.47 - Large Rhoka
10.47 - Large Urumi
10.58 - Elven Curve Blade
10.89 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
10.92 - Large Falcata
11.44 - EarthBreaker
11.44 - Greatsword
11.55 - Large Bastard Sword
11.55 - Large Dwarven WarAxe
16.83 - Lance, 1 handed, mounted charge
20.79 - Lance, 2 handed, mounted charge
The falcata looks pretty, but mathematically it's on par. I did not do higher level calculations with various bonuses simply because it's more work than I'm willing to do right now, but in actual play I have not seen it to be a problem.
I think you should play up the RP aspect of having a group walking around with nothing but Falcatas. It's something to be famous or infamous for, like a troupe or fighting force known for the weapons they use, ala the Musketeers.
~P
Bastard sword should be a martial weapon you can wield in one hand if you have at least 15 strength
What about lighter material? What about smaller ones? Bigger ones?
No, the current way is better.
The real world Falcata is designed for one handed use only.
http://swordforum.com/swd/dt/dt-falcata-largesand.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcata
It is very similar to the Kopis.
As it is a fantasy game and the devs are fairly loose with the design of the weapon, it usualy ends up what ever the DM decides it is.
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Bastard sword should be a martial weapon you can wield in one hand if you have at least 15 strengthWhat about lighter material? What about smaller ones? Bigger ones?
No, the current way is better.
The current way is easier.
Not all weapons are created equally and the fact some exotics are less than stellar is ok.
It is if you have to waste a feat to wield some piece of crap.
I don't think the rules should not punish you for flavour choices.
Nice post Pirate
Good crunching of numbers
I am thinking about taking a Paladin with a use magic devise to use enlarge person as my next PFS character. Using that with a Large bastard sword will be effective and when he gets vital strike he will be very effective, He isnt going to have much of a str. so weapon damage is key.
Try the Scared Servant variant from APG and pick paladin of Erastil - Growth Subdomain
The current way is easier.Bastard sword should be a martial weapon you can wield in one hand if you have at least 15 strengthWhat about lighter material? What about smaller ones? Bigger ones?
No, the current way is better.
Why waste approximately seven pages on this when it can be done with one line?
As has been pointed out in another thread, EWP: Falcata is basically taking Improved Critical: Battle Axe, only you can take it a 1st level, and then take it again at 8th level.
If you feel that two feats that stack: Improved Critical I(pre-req +1 BAB); Improved Critical II(pre-req +8 BAB) are reasonable and balanced for your playstyle, then the Falcata is right for you, otherwise you should rethink including it in your games.
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One option could be a to just make a feat to use a two handed weapon one handed at a penalty. Bastard Swords, War Axes, and similar weapons ignore this penalty.
Yar!
It's clearly superior to every other sword.
...but is it really? Or is it that your players suddenly have a fascination with it and are all willing to spend a feat to use it. Is this weapon destroying your ability to run encounters?
for comparisons sake, I have determined the average basic DPR for a number of weapons. For a basic 'how does this weapon compare', I'm assuming non-masterwork,
(snip)
Very interesting pirate. Thank you a lot for your answer! (EDIT: side note, I do not fear imbalances - I fear more lost of choice and its impact on RP)
But I want to ask: is this true at higher levels? Expecially when flat bonuses to damage (PA itself) overrides the damage dice.
Something like level 12.
@Skaorn I actually think the weapon would be very nice if a line like "you can only use Falcata one handed" is added. This is the houserule I am considering to add. Does not hurt S&B or TWFighter, but keeps at bay the THfight DPR.
Unless Pirate proves me wrong for high levels too.. in that case, very happy to be wrong ;)
[@Skaorn I actually think the weapon would be very nice if a line like "you can only use Falcata one handed" is added. This is the houserule I am considering to add. Does not hurt S&B or TWFighter, but keeps at bay the THfight DPR.
I was throwing the Two Hander as a One Hander out there as an idea to get rid of the Bastard Sword as an Exotic Weapon. I have no problem with the Falcata at all. It's a better weapon then a long sword or battle ax that you have to spend a feat to use.
Yar!
In a few hours when I'm done work I'll make some basic damage focused 12th level builds and run them through with the above listed weapons. I'm not going to do any super optimized builds, but fairly good yet vanilla ones so that the focus of the comparison will still be weapon effectiveness.
~P
Growth domain swift enlarge person was erratad to 1 round per use. Still pretty good for a 1st level ability, but not as good as before.
I'm not looking for errata. I'm curious about what other people experienced. What they think about EWP generally speaking.
Moreover, like Pirate, they can bring data and actual crunched numbers.
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Base Str 18 Mod +4. Human fighter level 1. Exotic weapon Bastard Sword/Falcata, Weapon Focus Bastard Sword/Falcata, Power Attack.
To hit bounes is the same. So just avrage damage is all you need.
Total To hit +6 ( Power Attack +5)
Total Damage +4 ( Power Attack +6)
Bastard Sword 1D10 Crit 19-20/X2
Avrage Damage 9 (Power Attack 11)
Avrage Critical Hit Damage 18 (Power Attack 22)
Total Avrage Damage 13.5 (Power Attack 16.5)
Falcata 1D8 Crit 19-20/X3
Avrage Damage 8 (Power Attack 10)
Avrage Critical Hit Damage 24 (Power Attack 30)
Total Avrage Damage 16 (Power Attack 20)
Befor the critical multiplyer. Bastard sword is a little better. After the critical multiplyer. Falcata takes the lead. This gets worse as you level up. The more base damage you can apply befor the X3 multiplyer. The more Falcata takes the lead.
I wouldn't worry about the falcata that much, the elven curve blade is a lot deadlier.
I may not be the best at optimising a build, but from the build I did for 2 level 12 fighters, one using a falchion and the other wielding a falcata 2h as Kaiyanwang wanted, I had the falchion winning by about 1 damage per round on a full attack. When power attacking the falchion still wins by a little over 1 DPR. The biggest difference is that this doesn't take bleeding critical or any other critical feat into account. Without PA the falchion would crit 28.5% of the time on the first 2 attacks the 21% of the time on the 3rd. The Falcata only would have a 10.5 on the first 2 attacks and a 7.5% on the 3rd vs a CR 12 AC(unless my math is wrong). Falcata isn't as good as the falchion for 2h fighting at all so your house rule wouldn't really matter since a 2h fighter should take a falchion anyway.
20 point buy(only str and weapon tracked through gear)
STR 25 (16+2racial+3leveling+4belt)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHR 8
attack bonus 12base+3weapon+2weapontraining+2greaterweaponfocus+7STR=26
+3Falchion +26/+21/+16 2d4+19 (15-20)x2
PA +22/+18/+12 2d4+31 (15-20)x2
Feats
1-weapon focus(falchion as are any other feats that requier a chosen weapon)
1-power attack
1-Exotic Weapon Prof
2-dodge=>greater weapon specialization(level 12)
3-Quick Draw
4-weapon Specialization
5-Step Up
6-vital strike
7-improved initiative
8-improved critical
9-greater weapon focus
10-critical focus
11-bleeding critical
12-improved vital strike
20 point buy(only str and weapon tracked through gear)
STR 25 (16+2racial+3leveling+4belt)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHR 8
attack bonus 12base+3weapon+2weapontraining+2greaterweaponfocus+7STR=26
+3Falcata +26/+21/+16 1d8+19 (18-20)x3
PA +22/+18/+12 1d8+31 (18-20)x3
Feats
1-weapon focus(falcata as are any other feats that requier a chosen weapon)
1-power attack
1-Iron will
2-dodge=>greater weapon specialization(level 12)
3-Quick Draw
4-weapon Specialization
5-Step Up
6-vital strike
7-improved initiative
8-improved critical
9-greater weapon focus
10-critical focus
11-bleeding critical
12-improved vital strike
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I may not be the best at optimising a build, but from the build I did for 2 level 12 fighters, one using a falchion and the other wielding a falcata 2h as Kaiyanwang wanted, I had the falchion winning by about 1 damage per round on a full attack. When power attacking the falchion still wins by a little over 1 DPR. The biggest difference is that this doesn't take bleeding critical or any other critical feat into account. Without PA the falchion would crit 28.5% of the time on the first 2 attacks the 21% of the time on the 3rd. The Falcata only would have a 10.5 on the first 2 attacks and a 7.5% on the 3rd vs a CR 12 AC(unless my math is wrong). Falcata isn't as good as the falchion for 2h fighting at all so your house rule wouldn't really matter since a 2h fighter should take a falchion anyway.
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **...
Your crit range is wrong for the falcata....should be 17-20 not 18-20. Makes for some different numbers.
I think the falcata is probably the ONLY exotic weapon worthy of a feat. It's a longsword with a x3 critical.
Also, unless you have a very kind GM or a crafter in party, good luck finding magical ones.
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Yar!
Sorry calagnar, but your crunch is very misleading. It does not take into account to hit chance, automatic misses from rolling a 1, critical threat range, or confirmation chance. Your crunch assumes that you always hit, and that half of your hits are confirmed critical hits, which is very inaccurate, and in my experience simply does not happen in game.
Anyways, here is the breakdown for my crunch.
Class/Lv: Core Fighter 12
Race: Human (most common race, plus other races change abilities differently, and some give free exotic proficiency, so anything else would simply add too many variable to deal with atm)
Strength: 16 base + 2 race + 3 levels + 4 enhancement = 25 (+7)
Other Stats: not important for this exercise. If 10pt buy, 16,10,10,10,10,10 is possible, and str is the only prereq for the feats selected below. I think any point buy vanilla fighter looking for damage output without being super-optimized would be happy with a 16 str.
Feats: Human Bonus: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: any OR any other if your not using an exotic weapon... lets say: Endurance
Regular 1st level: Power Attack
Fighter Bonus at 1st: Weapon Focus
2nd -B: Cleave
3rd: Furious Focus
4th -B: Weapon Specialization
5th: Great Cleave
6th -B: Vital Strike
7th: Lunge
8th -B: Improved Critical
9th: Critical Focus
10th -B: Greater Weapon Focus
11th: Improved Vital Strike
12th -B: Greater Weapon Specialization
Bravery: +3
Armor Training: +3 (max dex, reduction in ACP, move normal in heavy)
Weapon Training: +2 (to hit, to damage, to CMB, and to CMD with weapon group selected)
Gear: 108000gp worth. CRB suggests 25% to weapons, 25% to armor & protection, 25% to other magic, 15% to consumables, and 10% to mundane gear. As this is a vanilla damage fighter, I decided to shift it slightly in his favor (more akin to what you’d actually see in game). This gear works out to about 37% weapons, 24% armor & protection, 36% other magic, 3 % mundane/consumables/left over wealth.
Primary Weapon +4 = 32000gp (would only be +3 if I limited him to 25% total wealth to weapons)
Secondary Weapon +2 (most likely something ranged) = 8000gp
Full Plate +3 = 10500gp
Ring of Protection +2 = 8000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +2 = 8000
Belt of Giant Strength +4 = 16000gp
Cloak of Resistance +3 = 9000gp
Boots of Speed = 12000
Handy Haversack = 2000
Belt Pouch = 1gp
Waterskin = 1gp
Traveler’s clothing = 1gp
Cold Weather clothing = 8gp
Wealth left over: 2489gp
The only thing not from the CRB is Furious Focus (from the APG). Simply put: I really like it. I think he’s as vanilla as it gets while still focusing on doing damage. I’d hardly call him sub-optimal either. Sure, he’s not tricked out to be super-optimal, but neither does he suck. His gear I think is pretty standard for 12th level, and his feat selection is pretty basic. It gives him the power he wants and some versatility in his attack options. If faced with a single enemy that is within range of a move, he can move and vital strike. If faced with several enemies within range of a single move, he can move and cleave. If he’s within range to full attack, he does so; and for 10 rounds a day he’s self hasted. Lunge gives him some nice tactical/reach options as well, but that won’t come into play for this exercise.
And now, to give him various weapons under various attack options. Charge average damage, Cleave average damage (a.k.a. a regular hit, but against a variable number of foes), Vital Strike average damage, Full Attack average DPR, and a Hasted (from Boots of Speed) Full Attack average DPR.
Target AC = 27 (bestiary average AC for CR 12)
Damage breakdowns: +10 Str (7 x 1.5 for 2H), +4 Enh (weapon), +4 Weapon Specialization, +2 Weapon Training, +2[w] Improved Vital Strike, +12 Power Attack
Attack breakdowns: +12/7/2 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Enh +2 Weapon Focus, +2 Weapon Training, -0/-4/-4 Power Attack w/Furious Focus, +2 when Charging, +1 when Hasted
The numbers I give are a complete average, which includes miss chance, auto misses on a rolled 1, critical threats that do not confirm, and critical threats that do confirm. They are orders from lowest to highest (though I consider these the most damaging melee weapons. Most other weapons will be lower than the lowest here, while some will be the same… for example, a Long Sword has the same stats as a Sawtooth Sabre, and a Flamebard has the same stats as a Bastard Sword, etc.). I did not include the Lance this time as (in my opinion) any fighter who would specialize in the lance will have a different feat selection, and that would add too many variables for this post. Because there’s talk of making it 1handed only, I’ve also included the 1Handed damage for 1Handed weapons (it is clearly marked). Everything else is assumed to be wielded 2Handed.
33.63 - *Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
34.77 - *Bastard Sword* Wielded One-Handed
34.77 - *Dwarven WarAxe* Wielded One-Handed
36.4325 - *Rhoka* Wielded One-Handed
36.4325 - *Urumi* Wielded One-Handed
36.48 - *Large Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
39.235 - *Falcata* Wielded One-Handed
41.61 - Sawtooth Sabre
42.75 - Bastard Sword
42.75 - Dwarven WarAxe
44.46 - Earth Breaker
44.46 - Great Sword
44.46 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
45.0775 - Rhoka
45.0775 - Urumi
45.695 - Falchion
45.695 - Scythe
46.3125 - Elven Curve Blade
46.74 - Large Bastard Sword
46.74 - Large Dwarven WarAxe
48.165 - Large Rhoka
48.165 - Large Urumi
48.45 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
48.545 – Falcata
51.87 - Large Falcata
33.63 - *Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
34.77 - *Bastard Sword* Wielded One-Handed
34.77 - *Dwarven WarAxe* Wielded One-Handed
36.4325 - *Rhoka* Wielded One-Handed
36.4325 - *Urumi* Wielded One-Handed
36.48 - *Large Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
39.235 - *Falcata* Wielded One-Handed
41.61 - Sawtooth Sabre
42.75 - Bastard Sword
42.75 - Dwarven WarAxe
44.2 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
44.46 - Earth Breaker
44.46 - Great Sword
44.46 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
45.0775 - Rhoka
45.0775 - Urumi
45.695 - Falchion
45.695 - Scythe
46.3125 - Elven Curve Blade
46.74 - Large Bastard Sword
46.74 - Large Dwarven WarAxe
48.165 - Large Rhoka
48.165 - Large Urumi
48.545 – Falcata
51.87 - Large Falcata
42.18 - *Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
44.9825 - *Rhoka* Wielded One-Handed
44.9825 - *Urumi* Wielded One-Handed
45.22 - *Bastard Sword* Wielded One-Handed
45.22 - *Dwarven WarAxe* Wielded One-Handed
47.785 - *Falcata* Wielded One-Handed
49.78 - *Large Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
50.16 - Sawtooth Sabre
53.2 - Bastard Sword
53.2 - Dwarven WarAxe
53.6275 - Rhoka
53.6275 - Urumi
55.195 - Falchion
55.195 - Scythe
56.7625 - Elven Curve Blade
57.096 - Falcata
57.76 - Earth Breaker
57.76 - Great Sword
57.76 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
61.465 - Large Rhoka
61.465 - Large Urumi
62.05 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
63.84 - Large Bastard Sword
63.84 - Large Dwarven WarAxe
65.17 - Large Falcata
67.84 - *Large Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
69.62 - *Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
71.98 - *Bastard Sword* Wielded One-Handed
71.98 - *Dwarven WarAxe* Wielded One-Handed
75.65 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
76.405 - *Rhoka* Wielded One-Handed
76.405 - *Urumi* Wielded One-Handed
82.68 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
83.19 - *Falcata* Wielded One-Handed
86.14 - Sawtooth Sabre
86.92 - Large Basterd Sword
86.92 - Large Dwarven WarAxe
88.5 - Bastard Sword
88.5 - Dwarven WarAxe
90.87 - Large Rhoka
90.87 - Large Urumi
92.04 - Earth Breaker
92.04 - Great Sword
94.535 - Rhoka
94.535 - Urumi
95.83 - Falchion
95.83 - Scythe
97.125 - Elven Curve Blade
99.06 - Large Falcata
102.93 - Falcata
103.36 - *Large Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
105.315 - *Sawtooth Sabre* Wielded One-Handed
108.885 - *Bastard Sword* Wielded One-Handed
108.885 - *Dwarven WarAxe* Wielded One-Handed
115.198 - *Rhoka* Wielded One-Handed
115.198 - *Urumi* Wielded One-Handed
120.275 - Huge Sawtooth Sabre
125.08 - *Falcata* Wielded One-Handed
125.97 - Large Sawtooth Sabre
130.305 - Sawtooth Sabre
132.43 - Large Bastard Sword
132.43 - Large Dwarven Waraxe
133.875 - Bastard Sword
133.875 - Dwarven WarAxe
138.255 - Large Rhoka
138.255 - Large Urumi
139.23 - Earth Breaker
139.23 - Great Sword
142.533 - Rhoka
142.544 - Urumi
144.485 - Falchion
144.485 - Scythe
146.438 - Elven Curve Blade
150.54 - Large Falcata
154.76 - Falcata
Take the numbers as you will. I really enjoy how some of the weapons bounce around depending on the action used.
~P
EDIT:
I think the falcata is probably the ONLY exotic weapon worthy of a feat. It's a longsword with a x3 critical.
Honestly, the Elven Curve blade stays in a very close range to the Falcata in most every scenario. The Flambard does two-handed bastard sword damage but also has the Sunder and Trip properties. Plus, having a greater threat range is better for critical feats and other effects that don't rely on the multiplier, which some people/builds go for.
The falcata is the best weapon - once it is keen or the wielder has improved crit. It is as simple as that.
Bonus damage (on crit) dealt by the best non-falcata weapon with improved crit is 6x weapon damage. Bonus damage (on crit) dealt by a falcata with improved crit is 8x weapon damage.
For pure DPR the falcata is the best weapon; and it is too good at that.
I disagree that exotic weapons aren't "good enough" - but I think in general an exotic weapon should be usable by all martial-capable characters; but without the "exotic" bonus. So no finesse on elven curve blade, etc.
In Pathfinder Beta (or was it Alpha?) there was a combat feat that increased the critical multiplier from x2 to x3 with a chosen weapon.
It was removed as it was determined to be vastly overpowered.
Now we have the ability to spend one feat to change a longsword's crit from x2 to x3.
What's the difference?
Your crit range is wrong for the falcata....should be 17-20 not 18-20. Makes for some different numbers.
well that would change the numbers...sorry. I guess I shouldn't be doing such things half asleep :P.
So after redoing my numbers on a full attack with out power attack the falcata would win by a little over 2 dpr and with power attack over 6 dpr. Still you would crit more often with the falchion and these numbers do not take critical feats into play.
Thank you pirate for your number crunching. Impressive. I will save the thread link for future reference. Thank you very much.
Falcata seems to rule but not THAT much.Am I wrong? is the shift in DPR very high? I ask.
Ignoring falcata, I agree with you - is very cool that weapons shift in the scale depending from the use. It's how it should be, IMHO.
High threat weapons have a shift at high level (critical feats) so this could be another thing to consider. The same is for 2H Weapons with high multiplier and high level 2H Fighter.
It's interesting see that "bastard" weapons like the Bastard Sword and the Dwarven Waraxe perform decently if wielded large and 2H, but fall back to Greatsword - and Greatsword, as expected, is beaten by Scythe and Falchion.
IMHO, the -2 to hit for large BS and DW should be removed. Falcata should be 1H only, and the best one handed weapon. This should keep them powerful and encourage diversity (and the use of the EWP feat) without no-brainers.
I maybe pay too much attention to this, but IMHO diversity in the use of maneuvers and weapons it's very cool and flavourful from the RP viewpoint. In my settings warriors are proud of their weaponry and tactics and often duel to show their prowess. And maybe pause and talk, and then resume the combat.
Pirate, your numbers are pretty informative. Thanks!
It seems to me that the Falcata stands out ahead of the crowd in most cases. Especially as a one handed weapon. For a S&B character, the falcata greatly outperforms every other weapon, including all the exotics. If you throw in Imp. Crit, it gets even worse. Only the Falchion and ECB can hope to out do the Falcata then, which they both will eventually with rather reasonable plusses to damage.
Doing my own math, I found it interesting how amazing the Falcata is as a one handed weapon. As an exotic weapon that does 1d8(18-20), the Urumi will never, ever out do the falcata in average damage. No matter how much extra damage you add on, the falcata's crit is simply too high.
Another thing I didn't realize, a Large sawtooth sabre does 2d6 as a one-handed weapon with only a -2. It's the only one-handed weapon that even comes close to falcata's DPR, although, with Imp Crit, a falcata will still destroy the sawtooth sabre, even if you use vital strike.
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Pure DPR aside, the higher crit range weapons generally are better not just because of the crit feats, but because x3 can lead to overkill. You don't have to do 150 damage to something that has 70 HP left.
One houserule I like to use is that light weapon are one handed only (except for a CDG...you can two handed plunge a dagger into a helpless foe). One handed weapon can be used two handed for a -8 to hit. Two handed weapons can be used one handed for a -8 to hit. That means a bastard sword, if your not proficent in exotic is a -0 two handed and -4 one handed. And yes from weapon use, one handed sword used to handed is pretty dang awkward. In fact using a one handed sword or mace or hammer is a bit more difficult then it is for me to swing my 6.5 ft spear to cut a target with one handed.
One houserule I like to use is that light weapon are one handed only (except for a CDG...you can two handed plunge a dagger into a helpless foe). One handed weapon can be used two handed for a -8 to hit. Two handed weapons can be used one handed for a -8 to hit. That means a bastard sword, if your not proficent in exotic is a -0 two handed and -4 one handed. And yes from weapon use, one handed sword used to handed is pretty dang awkward. In fact using a one handed sword or mace or hammer is a bit more difficult then it is for me to swing my 6.5 ft spear to cut a target with one handed.
I thought light weapons were one-handed only. That is, you can't two-hand a dagger or a hand axe like you can a long sword.
I thought light weapons were one-handed only. That is, you can't two-hand a dagger or a hand axe like you can a long sword.
One houserule I like to use is that light weapon are one handed only (except for a CDG...you can two handed plunge a dagger into a helpless foe). One handed weapon can be used two handed for a -8 to hit. Two handed weapons can be used one handed for a -8 to hit. That means a bastard sword, if your not proficent in exotic is a -0 two handed and -4 one handed. And yes from weapon use, one handed sword used to handed is pretty dang awkward. In fact using a one handed sword or mace or hammer is a bit more difficult then it is for me to swing my 6.5 ft spear to cut a target with one handed.
Unless I miss something, you should be right.
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I recently decided that unless a weapon was actually exotic or at least required some sort of special training that players did not have to waste a feat slot on them. Too often imo their is nothing at all exotic about "exotic" weaposns. Now if you can trip or disarm with a weapon than yes you would be required to take the feat. As to do that requires training. Sometimes it feels more like the designers are penalizing you for wanting to take a better weapon. I see no reason to force players to tkae a feat because weapon A does 1d10 abd Weapon B does 1D12.
You can wield a light weapon, such as a dagger, two-handed--there's just no real benefit to doing so.
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I thought light weapons were one-handed only. That is, you can't two-hand a dagger or a hand axe like you can a long sword.
One houserule I like to use is that light weapon are one handed only (except for a CDG...you can two handed plunge a dagger into a helpless foe). One handed weapon can be used two handed for a -8 to hit. Two handed weapons can be used one handed for a -8 to hit. That means a bastard sword, if your not proficent in exotic is a -0 two handed and -4 one handed. And yes from weapon use, one handed sword used to handed is pretty dang awkward. In fact using a one handed sword or mace or hammer is a bit more difficult then it is for me to swing my 6.5 ft spear to cut a target with one handed.
It is spelled out because I am changing the ruleset of handedness.
Recently my players and me discussed about exotic weapons.We took a look at the stats of the APG Falcata (d8, 19-20/x3 1H). The discussion raised after seeing a PC using it two-handed.
The weapon always felt "wrong" because of its stats, and we observed how progressively every PC at the table able to spend a feat on it will do it. It's clearly superior to every other sword.
Your strength would have to get pretty high before its better than a two hander or elven curve blade for two handed fighters. At that level fighters need all the help they can get, so burning a feat to up their damage is pretty reasonable.
Critical feats. End of story if you are wondering which is better at high level. you must remember that using a falchion over falcata gives 15-20 crit range instead of 17-20. Doesn't crit as hard but it crits more often. This is a big deal. Also remember that when using a falchion over falcata you have the extra crit range from 15-16, and also an extra feat, (since you didn't waste one taking EWP). So from my perspective any class that isn't a fighter is really gimping themselves by taking EWP falcata, cause thats a feat you could spend elsewhere, and its really gimping you even if you are a fighter. I'd take Falchion even if falcata didn't cost an extra much needed feat.
I plugged them both into the DPR calculator spreadsheet. Following assumptions:
Level 20 fighter. Strength mod of +13 (36 strength). AC 36 (average CR 20). One +5 weapon with no extra enchants. Power attack. Appropriate weapon feats (Focus, Spec, G.Focus, G.Spec, Imp Crit, Crit Focus). 4 steps of weapon training.Falchion (2d4, 15-20/x2, 2 handed): 67.93 DPR on one attack, 214.78 DPR on a full round attack.
Falcata (1d8, 17-20/x3, 1 handed): 56.53 DPR on one attack, 180.20 DPR on a full round attack
Falcata (1d8, 17-20/x3, 2 handed): 72.49 DPR on one attack, 231.08 DPR on a full round attack
Clearly, the Falcata is the better weapon - you can use it one-handed for less damage but something in your off hand, or you can wield it two-handed for more damage than the Falchion, for the cost of one extra feat. 5 DPR (20 full round DPR) is not a huge difference, however, so if your build involves using critical mastery to apply two affects, then the falchion is probably better. But they're close, and if your build is more focused on things that get multiplied on a crit (being enlarged for strength and die size, bardsong, other magical boosts to damage, etc), the Falcata is probably worth the feat.
Does your spreadsheet spit back how often the weapon crits? It would be useful to know how often the "Xing Critical" feats would come into play.
Also, did the falchion user get an extra feat (for not spending one on XWP falcata)? Bleeding critical, maybe?
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If you haven't already checked it out, look at Kirth Girsen's Houserules thread. His houserules for weapons are genius and take care of problems like some exotics being superawesome and others being awful. Won't help if you're playing something like Pathfinder Society, of course, but if you're houseruling things for your home games, it's worth a look.
You have a link? I don't find it in the forum.
I have determined the average basic DPR for a number of weapons. For a basic 'how does this weapon compare', I'm assuming non-masterwork, a target AC of 10, BAB +1, 18 str, and two-handing it.
..9.24 - Lance
16.83 - Lance, 1 handed, mounted charge
20.79 - Lance, 2 handed, mounted charge
Lance, 2 handed? I don't think there is any option for that. Yes, the text say "while mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand" but it would be more precise with "while mounted you should wield a lance one handed". Especially for a charge.
A good houserule will be that a lance, when properly set (heavy armours had a resta (rest in English), a hook used to support and increase the control of the weapon) and used from a moving (not necessarily charging) mount, will use x2 the strength bonus of the rider or the mount (whichever is greater).
For more info the relative Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance
Very nice the second post with all the number crunching. Worth bookmarking, thanks.
Falcata: it is fairly powerful but not widespread as it require proper training. So there is a problem with finding a magic version of the weapon unless you order one from a spellcaster. I think it is a reasonable limitation.
Exotic weapons: yes, they are exotic or not depending on the culture were you live.
Several of them are weak to be something where you spend a feat but if you want to learn how to use a weapon that come from outside your culture and has no similitude with common weapons in your culture it is right to treat them as exotic weapons.
The rapier example for a oriental themed culture is very apt.
Or a boomerang. Without specific training it is a oddly shaped piece of wood that you can use with the "throw anything" feat and nothing more.
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I thought light weapons were one-handed only. That is, you can't two-hand a dagger or a hand axe like you can a long sword.
One houserule I like to use is that light weapon are one handed only (except for a CDG...you can two handed plunge a dagger into a helpless foe). One handed weapon can be used two handed for a -8 to hit. Two handed weapons can be used one handed for a -8 to hit. That means a bastard sword, if your not proficent in exotic is a -0 two handed and -4 one handed. And yes from weapon use, one handed sword used to handed is pretty dang awkward. In fact using a one handed sword or mace or hammer is a bit more difficult then it is for me to swing my 6.5 ft spear to cut a target with one handed.
I think you are right. It is not possible to use power attack with a light weapon too (I hear there is a feat to do get an equivalent bonus, Piranha Strike, but I haven't jet read that supplement).
As a house rule I will not allow a oversized weapon to be used with weapon finesse and a feat that allow a two handed weapon to be used one handed (like a bastard sword) will not allow to use oversized versions to be used one handed.