|
I hate Vancian magic. Always have. So I'm setting out to make a workable system for my home games. This what I have so far, let me know what you think.
Alternate Casting System
In this casting variant, there are no spells per day. Spellcasting is skill-based and thus, having a chance of failure, casters can cast infinitely.
In order to cast a spell, the caster must succeed on a caster level check (DC 15 + double spell level). Success indicates that the caster has successfully cast the spell. Failure indicates that the caster has botched some part of casting the spell. Upon failing a casting check, you have a choice to go ahead and cast the spell for which you rolled anyway. This is known as overcasting and can range from strenuous to lethal, depending on the scope of what you are trying to do, as shown on the table below. All effects
stack with those of lower level effects.
Failed By Effect
1-4 1 Constitution Damage, Fatigue
5-9 1 Constitution Damage (2 total), Exhaustion
10-14 2 Constitution Damage (4 total)
15-19 4 Constitution Damage (8 total), Unconsciousness
+5 x2 Constitution Damage
You can only overcast a number of points equal to your caster level. If you are rendered unconscious by overcasting, you may make a DC 20 Will save to wake up after four hours, with an additional attempt every hour thereafter. After eight hours, you automatically wake up, but are exhausted.
Creatures immune to fatigue, exhaustion or Constitution damage cannot overcast. If this immunity is granted by a dismissable, harmless effect, they may dismiss this immunity as a free action in order to overcast.
Spontaneous Casters
Spontaneous casters work much as they do normally. They have a list of spells known, and can cast them in any combination any number of times per day. Bonus spell slots that would be granted by a high ability score instead become bonus spells known. Bonus spells that would be granted that are of a higher level than the caster gets from his class suffer a -5 to the casting check for each level above what the caster gets from his class.
Prepared Casters
Prepared casters have a more significant change to the way they work. They continue to gain spells known in whatever fashion they did previously. They continue to get bonus spells per day from a high ability score. Prepared casters can prepare a number of spells per day as indicated on their respective class tables. Any spell that has been prepared gets a +5 bonus to the caster level check to cast the spell.
A prepared caster can also cast any spell he knows but does not have prepared. Doing so takes a number of full-round actions equal to the level of the spell. In the case of spells that normally take a full-round action or more to cast, it instead takes an additional full-round action per spell level. Spells cast in this manner do not receive the +5 bonus to caster levels checks that prepared spells receive.
Prepared casters have a specific source for their spells. Arcane caster keep a spellbook in which they scribe new spells as they learn them. Divine casters who draw their power from religion keep a prayerbook containing all of the spells on their spell list. Divine casters who draw their power from nature must (commune with nature spirits/craft totems and fetishes) in order to cast their spells.
Any feedback? What sounds good for natural divine casters? Is the casting DC too high? Too low?
Do your best to break the system in both ways. How is it too powerful? How is it too weak?
How do spontaneous casters survive past level 1? They're averaging 2-4 con damage every time they cast.
This system basically says: Play a wizard and only a wizard. Nothing else will suffice.
My first impression says the following: At level 1, you are making a caster level check against a DC 17 for a 1st level spell, or 15 for a 0th level spell. There are no racial abilities/feats which currently add to caster level for anything aside overcoming SR.
This means that for a 1st level caster to cast a 1st level spell successfully, they would need to roll a 16 on the die, meaning a 25% success rate to do it without killing themselves.
If they are a wizard and the spell is prepared, they have a 50-50 chance.
Did you perhaps mean a concentration check? That would definitely make much more sense. I'd have to say that it's distinctly unsettling to have a Wizard WITH the +5 bonus only be able to cast a 1st level spell with no chance of killing himself at level 11. (11+5+1 minimum makes the 17 required to cast the spell)
I'd also like to recommend moving the +5 bonus for preparing a spell into making casting an unprepared spell a -5 penalty. Same difference overall, only NOW the wizards don't get an automatic bonus over the sorcerers.
Though this would mean that only at 16th level could any class, as written, successfully cast a 1st level spell. As for 9th level spells? They're a DC 33. If you somehow get to 17th level without saying 'forget it' and picking up a bow or sword, then you're looking at, again, a 25% chance of not dying... At level 20 you still need a 13, meaning at the very pinnacle of your power you are still, at the end of the day, incredibly likely to kill yourself.
Finally, there's the con damage. Most likely, you're taking 1-2 con damage (Plus fatigue, lowering your ability to do anything) every time you cast a spell. Your average caster will have 14-16 con. With a +6 item they get to 22, and if they somehow can scrape together a +5 inherent we have a 27, which at level 20 isn't so bad... but level 1?
50% of the time you are failing and are either exhausted (and thus cannot cast any more spells for 8 hours, making you useless for the day) or fatigued (Meaning 50% of the time you're exhausted next time either way) alongside losing a con (and probably hit points). The other 25% of the time you lose 2 con and are useless the rest of the day. This means you will be casting one, maybe two spells a day without having a lucky rigged d20 on hand. That puts your spell output below even that of a universalist wizard with an 11 int. The alternative is casting one spell every 4 rounds in a system designed to have battle last 3-5 rounds, making you effectively useless for most combats.
...The DC definitely needs to be lowered, but I'm not sure where else to begin with fixing things.
|
|
Nothing says you HAVE to overcast when you fail. You could just let the spell fizzle. The Con damage is only there if you feel like you really HAVE to get that spell off.
And as far as the DC, a reasonably built character will have a +4 to their caster level check (1 + 3 from relevant casting stat), requiring a 13 to cast a 1st level spell. It IS far too steep, but a 20th level character is looking at roughly a 26 in their main spellcasting stat. That's +28 to their casting check, requiring only a 5 to cast a 9th level spell.
I'm not looking to trivialize the DC to a point that you end up with a 20th level caster with infinite spells that has no chance of failure. That's so far beyond broken it isn't even funny anymore.
When it comes to the bonus for a prepared caster, I was applying logic to a roleplaying game, which I know rarely pans out. It just seems like it'd be easier to cast a spell when you've already gone through the trouble of preparing it.
Caster level checks are just d20+caster level, per the Core Rulebook, p.217 under 'spell resistance.' Casting stat doesn't factor in to that. If we're wanting to keep it fair going through the levels, we could always make it 10+double spell level for the CL check.
That would make the DC 12 for a 1st level spell, so mages succeed on an 11+, a 50% chance. This would remain constant as they go through, and at 20th would succeed on casting a 9th level spell on a 8, a total of 65% of the time.
Why use Spellcraft to, say, craft spells?
|
|
Well, I'll be damned. I've been doing caster level checks incorrectly for a decade. In that case, 10 + double spell level is MUCH better.
Regarding dropping the +5 to a prepared spell and moving it to a -5 for an unprepared spell, do you think that's fairly balanced to apply a penalty on top of the added casting time?
Why use Spellcraft to, say, craft spells?Because you can easily hit +40 to your Spellcraft check by 20th level.
So? By 20th level even 9th level spells should be a piece of cake.
Honestly, the Psionic casting system has been the best system put out for 3.x to date. The points/math are easy. The costs are easy, there's no additional roles to be made, ect.
I'd recommend adapting that for a Non-vancian system. (just my 2cp)
It makes more sense to apply a penalty than it does to give a bonus in this case, as a bonus makes the wizard a clear choice.
I'd either drop the penalty altogether, or else keep it as a penalty. A bonus is definitely not needed.
|
|
Why use Spellcraft to, say, craft spells?Because you can easily hit +40 to your Spellcraft check by 20th level.So? By 20th level even 9th level spells should be a piece of cake.
Honestly, the Psionic casting system has been the best system put out for 3.x to date. The points/math are easy. The costs are easy, there's no additional roles to be made, ect.
I'd recommend adapting that for a Non-vancian system. (just my 2cp)
You honestly don't see a problem with a 20th level caster with infinite spells and no chance of failure?
It makes more sense to apply a penalty than it does to give a bonus in this case, as a bonus makes the wizard a clear choice.
I'd either drop the penalty altogether, or else keep it as a penalty. A bonus is definitely not needed.
Fair enough.
Any other feedback?
...reworking the psionics system and calling it 'magic points' would be good, even if I'd be sorely tempted to make a Dragon Warrior/Final Fantasy joke or seven.
You honestly don't see a problem with a 20th level caster with infinite spells and no chance of failure?
I'd just make the checks harder, proportionate with the levels of the spells being cast.
Or just use a spell point system and do away with having to roll to cast. One roll per action is enough, and nearly all spells are either Attack roll or Save based. I see no need to make spells take 2 rolls total apiece (three for things with spell resist). Just bogs the game down.
I'd just make the checks harder, proportionate with the levels of the spells being cast.
.
To clarify, that's harder for successive spells. Start with a base DC and add to it for each spell cast over time.
|
|
To clarify, that's harder for successive spells. Start with a base DC and add to it for each spell cast over time.
I'd just make the checks harder, proportionate with the levels of the spells being cast.
.
I like this idea, as is puts a limit on what you can realistically cast without dipping into dangerous reserves.
Maybe a +2 to the DC for every spell of that level that you've cast that day? This would allow us to drop the initial DC from "10 + double spell level" to "5 + double spell level."
And as far as spell points go, yes it's less rolling, but I've played psionics before and every single character was a Soulknife. Why? Because they didn't want to deal with the bookkeeping of Power Points.
Although, the casters in my party are the type that don't usually mind bookkeeping. I'll take a second look at a "spell points" system, but I'd like to flesh this out first.
Running the numbers quickly, as a 1st level wizard with the 5+double +2 successive...
First you need a 6, that's a 75% chance of success.
After that it drops by 10% each spell after that. That means your third casting has a 55% chance of going through. You literally cannot safely cast a 1st level spell more than 8 1st level spells even with successive natural 20s, and after about 4 or 5 it gets very difficult.
This stays constant as you go through the levels and get new spells, through 17. At 20 you're looking at casting Time Stop on a 3+ and are averaging something like 5-6 9th level spells without major issue.
Orange Ioun stones (+1 Caster Level) suddenly serve as caster aids under this system, and have no limit to the number you can wield. I foresee several orbiting orange things.
A couple of years ago, a company that is no longer in business, made a book for under the OGL for the D20 system, it introduced a concept of turning all casters into a Spontaneous caster, I have use these rules in my 3.5 game, some people liked it, some didn't. The book was called Advanced D20 Magic, the company was called Guardians of order I have write up the rules in pdf format if anyone is interested.
|
|
@Trinam: That actually puts it roughly on par with casters as they are now, but with more flexibility and the ability to pull out a needed spell at the expense of your physical health. In regards to the Ioun stones, I point to the Steal maneuver.
@Darkon Slayer: I'm a big fan of BESM, so I'd love to see what GoO came up with. If you wouldn't mind linking/mailing the file to me, I'd be very much appreciative.
vikingirishman@hotmail.com
You have two sources for that, first is the d20 Slayers Book, the second is d20 Advanced Magic (which should be on drive thru rpg under White Wolf now). Should be on discount by now :P
In short instead of con damage it uses Non-lethal or Energy Points if you use that.
@Trinam: That actually puts it roughly on par with casters as they are now, but with more flexibility and the ability to pull out a needed spell at the expense of your physical health. In regards to the Ioun stones, I point to the Steal maneuver.
@Darkon Slayer: I'm a big fan of BESM, so I'd love to see what GoO came up with. If you wouldn't mind linking/mailing the file to me, I'd be very much appreciative.
vikingirishman@hotmail.com
I sent the email, hope you enjoy.
In my write up I came up with an energy points system similar to BESM d20, but was what I felt was fair for a D&D system.
any class with spell casting would gain D8 + primary casting stat per lvl
any class without spell casting would gain D2 + the lowest mental stat per lvl
also added some danger to the failing of the control checks.
I did not get to update the system based on Pathfinders unlimited 0 lvl spells, but I'm working on it at this time.