Hey all I thought I'd solicit some advice from those that have played or ran thru Kingmaker. I'm thinking of picking up this path as the whole establishing a kingdom, sandbox thing appeals to me. That and after running CoCT, Savage Tide I'm looking for an AP that is not about stopping the resurrection of some god, evil dark lord etc. or world-shattering ritual. I had been thinking of renewing my sub for Carrion Crown but given that is exactly what's it about I'm looking for other options.
So while I've glanced over the reviews for the individual volumes I was curious to hear from those that have played through the path.
-Good things
-Bad things, issues
-What type of players would this appeal to?
-Kingdom building rules in play - good or just sort of more paperwork?
-Suitable for beginning players? (its likely I'll have a few players who either have not gamed before or only a little)
-The Guide to the River Kingdoms - needed?
Any comments, suggestions appreciated. Thanks!
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Hey all I thought I'd solicit some advice from those that have played or ran thru Kingmaker. I'm thinking of picking up this path as the whole establishing a kingdom, sandbox thing appeals to me. That and after running CoCT, Savage Tide I'm looking for an AP that is not about stopping the resurrection of some god, evil dark lord etc. or world-shattering ritual. I had been thinking of renewing my sub for Carrion Crown but given that is exactly what's it about I'm looking for other options.
So while I've glanced over the reviews for the individual volumes I was curious to hear from those that have played through the path.
-Good things
Good things are innumerable but I'll begin by saying. The sandbox elements are perfect for introducing player driven plots. This has been easily the most fun thing in Kingmaker, as it's the most easily customisable adventure path for introducing personal plots for the party (without fear of wrecking the meta-plot).
-Bad things, issues
Unless you take a little time between adventures to plant seeds in each area linking them to other areas, it can feel a little disjointed when players travel from area to area. The best way to deal with this is to USE the Random Encounter tables, and link whatever you've written to:
A) An adjoining Hex's encounter area.B) An encounter area featuring the creature (example: Rolling a Tatzlwyrm. Perhaps it grabs a small character and attempts to drag it back to the Tatzlwyrm nest that appears in the Stolen Land). This gives the players a sense of connection between multiple areas.
-What type of players would this appeal to?
Achievers - There are XP rewards for exploring and clearing hexes. Awards for building their kingdoms and cities to certain sizes. There are legendary monsters that wander about the kingdom. Achievers love this campaign. Number 2 (close to Number 1 pick)
Explorers - This is easily the most exploration heavy game Paizo has ever published. There is a constant feeling of going places that have never been seen before, of encountering strange and lost things. There's plenty of history and lore to be discovered as well. Explorers are my Number 1 pick for a player type in this game.Socialisers - Diplomacy and Negotiation are incredibly useful with the various monstrous and fey races that pop up in the Stolen Lands. When kingdom building begins they'll also get a kick out of interacting with their subjects and with negotiating how city building should take hold. Easily my number 3 pick.
Killers - These guys will have a lot of fun, as there's plenty of stuff to kill in the Stolen Lands. That said, those that kill every monster they come across are going to get less out of the game than those that are willing to talk their way through some situations. Killers are my number 4 pick for this campaign.
-Kingdom building rules in play - good or just sort of more paperwork?
We're still in our downtime between Stolen Land and Rivers Run Red, at this point the Kingdom Building stuff is fun (although it started off a bit slow). That said grab one of the BRILLIANT excel sheets from somewhere on these boards, and USE your NPCs on the council to help the players come to decisions or provide options for what the citizenry might want built. There are a HUGE amount of options for building and expanding the kingdom (especially if you use the Guide to the River Kingdom series by Jon Breyzer Enterprises), and that much choice can easily lead to paralysis or disagreement.
If the PCs have a good idea of what kind of kingdom they want to build, or have some helpful NPCs saying things like: "The people have been throwing their trash wherever it lies, perhaps we may want to invest in some manner of municipal dump?" etc. Then you'll have a lot more fun.Also there's a lot of GMs who excised the "Magic Item" selling rules from the Kingdom Building rules, and others who reduced them to an economy bonus if successfully sold. I'd recommend looking at those rules carefully and reading the various threads on here about that.
FINALLY - The kingdom building rules ARE FUN, they really make the PLAYERS feel like they are contributing to, changing and OWNING the setting that they play in.
Also the EVENTS are super great for launching new sub-quests, or personal quests for the various PCs. They are an invaluable resource for GM inspiration.
Make sure you set aside part of each session for Kingdom building, and leave the rest for letting the PCs head out to explore, adventure and role-play. When you've found the balance you'll know it.
OH! And also again! Try to make sure everyone is contributing to Kingdom building, you don't want things to be a one player game. Everyone should be representing the interest of their role (The Councilor the people, the General defense, Warden jusice etc) That way it becomes a bit more about give and take than merely one player deciding things and making rolls.
-Suitable for beginning players? (its likely I'll have a few players who either have not gamed before or only a little)
My group was originally 12 players that were exploring the Stolen Land. Of that 12, THREE had any experience with Table Top role playing. ONE had experience with Pathfinder. Eventually I had to cut the group back down to 6 (due to not having enough time to run two groups a week).
Of the current group of 6 - ONE has any experience with Table Top games. Make sure the New Players have access to the rules (Either a core rule book or Internet access for the SRD).There are some players who will learn the rules quickly, so try to seat experienced players next to inexperienced players so the new guys can ask their more experienced friends questions without disturbing flow of play too much.
Finally, there's no clock on Kingmaker, so if the game takes longer to accommodate new players, then don't sweat it. Most of the encounters won't take more than a single 4 hour session to complete anyway. Even with newbies making up your mix.
-The Guide to the River Kingdoms - needed?
NOPE. Which is to say I don't have it, and the general information in the Campaign Setting or Gazeteer has been plenty informative for me.
Any comments, suggestions appreciated. Thanks!
USE THE FORUMS! There is LOTS of invaluable stuff here, from EXCEL sheets for Kingdom Building, to alternate encounter ideas to additions to the adventures to flesh out stuff. You and your players will be glad you did.
GOOD LUCK!
The Dudemeister.
I'll throw in my own two cents:
-Good things
First thing, right off the bat: Stolen Lands, Varnhold Vanishing, and Sound of a Thousand Screams are pretty great adventures all on their own. The first two use their exploration aspect expertly, and the last is a great capstone adventure that throws everything the players have built into supernatural peril.
The kingdom building rules are very well crafted - a few open questions here and there but if you've ever wanted to do kingdom-building and management, they're very clever.
The four areas to explore presented (Greenlands, Nomen Heights, Slough, and Uplands) are well presented, and show some good diversity in terms of challenges.
-Bad things, issues
Rivers Run Red, Blood for Blood, and - to a lesser extent - War of the River Kings aren't the most exciting adventures. They're fun, but kind of disparate. Without a clear running thread running through the adventures, it feels more like a series of disconnected random encounters - which in a way it is. But it just lacks cohesion. (Notably, the story aspects of these adventures are fine.)
The mass combat rules are functional, if sparse. This definitely is not the AP to consider if you want to do mass combat, unfortunately.
So much attention is placed in the player's guide and the various player background traits to the civil war/political conflicts in Brevoy that having them have no effect whatever in the AP (officially, anyhow) is kind of jarring. I really wish that they had published a Guide to Brevoy instead of the Guide to the River Kingdoms. The six page article that accompanies Stolen Lands just doesn't give us enough information as a GM to really know what might happen. So if your PCs show any interest in that (and why shouldn't they, considering the interest paid in said resources), you're entirely on your own as a GM.
Which isn't necessarily bad, but if you're like me and run APs specifically because you don't have time to come up with your own plans, it's a bit of a stumbling block.
-What type of players would this appeal to?
Definitely self-starters and self-doers. This is not the AP for the player who just wants to follow the plot from scene to scene. That type of player will be very confused (see my comments above about half of the adventures in the AP not having enough cohesion.) If your players are the type that take the time to design blue prints to the house that they just bought, actually detail out what kind of followers they have when they take the Leadership feat, etc., then that's definitely for you.
Others... not so much.
-Kingdom building rules in play - good or just sort of more paperwork?
I think the kingdom building rules are great if you want to run a small autocratic state. (Basically, the kingdom building rules are awesome to run a small kingdom with.) They won't work out so well if your PCs have the crazy notion to do some other type of government (at least, you'll have a lot more work to do as GM).
They do, however, take up quite a bit of play time. And they're definitely paperwork-intense. If you play with computers at the table, I suggest you use the Excel spreadsheet someone came up with on these boards.
But the important question you don't ask is - are they fun? I think they are, and I have a blast with that aspect of the game. But I know that there are some of my players who don't enjoy them at all, letting the other players take center stage on that.
-Suitable for beginning players? (its likely I'll have a few players who either have not gamed before or only a little)
Hmm. Yes. Some of the early encounters are actually fairly easy, challenge-wise. (Random encounters, which you as GM get to dictate anyway, aside.) The only thing that wouldn't otherwise be new player friendly would be the kingdom building rules - but there's nothing about them that specifically is difficult for new PCs.
-The Guide to the River Kingdoms - needed?
Not needed. But it definitely changed my game significantly once I got it. I really had no clear idea of how the people in the PCs kingdom lived until I got the Guide to the River Kingdoms. Plus, I got to throw in some regional diplomacy as well.
And like I said above, I wish they had come up with a Guide to Brevoy. Would've been quite helpful too.
So those are just my two cents. Despite any negative commentary, I do believe that Kingmaker is pretty amazing.
Hey all I thought I'd solicit some advice from those that have played or ran thru Kingmaker
-Good things
-Bad things, issues
-What type of players would this appeal to?
-Kingdom building rules in play - good or just sort of more paperwork?
-Suitable for beginning players? (its likely I'll have a few players who either have not gamed before or only a little)
-The Guide to the River Kingdoms - needed?
Any comments, suggestions appreciated. Thanks!
The Good:
•The campaign is incredibly open-ended. There's plenty of room to add entirely new NPC's, encounters, dungeons, and adventures.•Exploration: See above.
•No Time Limit (Except for the very last book, which is more a traditional adventure)
•Lack of continuity = more options. Your players kill off Bob the Adept in book 1 instead of befriending him? Now you don't have to scramble as a DM to wing it, because the plot doesn't cough if shenanigans ensue.
•Variety: Lots of single encounters (with chances to rest up), some short dungeons, and even a few long dungeons/castle infiltrations.
•Quests. Both seeing the rewards and remembering the tasks and adding purpose.
The Bad
•The campaign is incredibly open-ended. If your players are used to railroading, your campaign is going to go nowhere, fast.
•Lack of continuity = more work in the future. Your players befriended Bob the Adept? He's not explicitly mentioned again in books 2-6, so how he influences your party and campaign is left to you.
Players
As GM, you are the ultimate judge of your players and their interests. I would not recommend Kingmaker for the ultra-casual group of players that can't be bothered with any roleplaying or paying attention or the munchkin-powergamer obsessed with "winning" at the rules and little else.
Kingmaker can has a mix of diplomacy, adventure, and combat, and rewards those players who can enjoy it and even enjoy the long run. As GM, you might want to explicitly ask your players what they want out of it.
On the other hand, too much roleplaying can be just as bad. A party that's filled with internal treachery and backstabbing because "it's in character" is going to fall to pieces just as quickly.
Kingdom Building
If you solely "play" the kingdom building minigame "to win" (i.e. fifteen cities with nothing but magic item shops), it breaks, fast. Likewise, if you're so afraid of it breaking that you don't let your players see any of the mechanics or the rules behind it, your PCs' kingdoms will probably fail due to the rules. Likewise, entirely neutering magic item sales is also probably a mistake, as the economy rules have a moderate inherent dependence on it.
The middle ground and the niche the Kingdom Building Rules were designed for is to enrich the roleplaying experience. Engage your players so that if they want to build a temple or an inn, it's because they want to build a temple or an inn. Make up names and faces for the owner of that inn or the smithy, and what they call their establishment, and there's a lot more attachment to it than "City #2: Shop".
If there's a player or players in your game that like the Civ-style stuff, run the number-crunching with them, but keep the rest of the players involved with what to build. Kingdom turns, or even planning for what to do for the next kingdom turn make great OOC/extra sessions/during break fodder.
All in all, the kingdom rules are designed to be an aid, not a shackle.
Suitable for Beginning Players?
Depends on their play style. If they mesh well with the group and are motivated, then by all means, a beginning player isn't a bad thing; be sure to have more experienced players help out as needed.
If they're going to be disruptive, inattentive, or backstabbing, then Kingmaker is probably not for them.
Guide to the River Kingdoms
Depends on your group's play style. If your group loves Machiavellian intrigue and wants to sink their teeth into regional politics, then the Guide is probably a worthy investment. If they're more keen on just adventuring and securing the borders, then the more distant River Kingdoms can be just that; places on the map and from where goods and immigrants arrive.
The Big Suggestions
1.Listen to the Chronicles: Pathfinder podcasts about Kingmaker. (thus far, #08 and #12). I won't lie to you, they're long, clocking in at the 3-4 hour range. But they cover a lot of the pitfalls and common sense issues and have lots of good suggestions to boot.
2.Know your Players. It's the best way to tailor any campaign (Kingmaker included) so that your group gets the most enjoyment out of it.
3.As GM, Don't be an A—hole. The Kingmaker Obituary Thread has numerous tales of GMs playing against their players: "I rolled a CR 6 encounter against my level 1 party and it killed them, but it doesn't matter because that's what I rolled on the random encounter chart." No, just no. Those trolls you rolled? They can be seen at a distance or their tracks found. That shambling mound? Let your players make the Knowledge(nature) rolls to realize that it can kick their behinds. Your players not the sort to run when outmatched? Either suggest it out-of-character to them, or don't spring it on them at all. TPK's happen every now and then, but GMs shouldn't engineer them their spite or indifference.
4.Read the Kingmaker Forum...with a grain of salt. Understand that everyone's play style is a little different, and what was a horrible stumbling block for one group might not even be an issue with yours. There's still lots of juicy bits and suggestions to be had.
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Smaller Suggestions
House Rules
Your players have an idea for a new building? You decide the way they handled that quest or that negotiation improved their kingdom as a whole? Awesome. Make up the crunch rules to match and run with it. Kingmaker is exactly the sort of campaign for this sort of thing, and the Paizo staff, bless them, will come out and admit, there's only so much they squeeze in a single Adventure Path book.
Respect the Rules, but Don't Let Them Govern You
As sort of an extension to the rules above, rules are a tool and a guideline, not shackles. If it makes sense for the NPCs in government (or other prominent NPCs, such as on-staff adventurers) to gain levels over time, go for it. The rules are silent on an issue, but a proposed solution makes sense? All the better.
Don't Be Afraid to Make Fluff Up
Your player wants or needs a foil/ally/cohort/follower, but none exist? Oh noes! Invoke Rule 0 and make it up; heck, conspire with your players.
Make Your Own Player Guide
If you're playing at a table, either you as GM or the party secretary can take notes about the names and faces you meet, what your current quests are, how far it takes to travel over that Mountain Hex on foot or steed, and so forth. Type it up, hand it to your players are regular intervals. If playing via chat, email, play-by-post, or virtual tabletop, collate the above sorts of notes into a document and electronically send it to your players. When your players have that cheat sheet available, it cuts down on repeated easy questions, and having names and short blurbs (e.g. "Vekkel Benzen, retired hunter and assistant to Oleg and Svetlana at Oleg's Trading Post. [ranger/expert]") available makes roleplaying easier and makes a large cast of named NPC's feasible. Players usually don't care about Nameless Commoner #324 or remember her. They will remember goodwife Irenka, the farmer who let the party weather over a storm in her barn after tracking down that werewolf to protect the kingdom.
So, nab the Paizo Player's Guide, make your own, and give both to your players.
Sift Through the Forums for Resources You Like...and Give Back
Not to hurt anyone's feelings, but not every post is useful or insightful. But there are a lot that are. Still, not everyone will jive with you or your players; take what you want and leave the rest. And give your good ideas back to your fellow GMs and players. I got tired of only having 17 random kingdom events. So I checked the forums, found nothing, and started a new thread for new kingdom events. I've since personally written another two dozen of my own, which have been collated with the help of other forum-goers. Be sure to check the Forum Archives...just because it hasn't been recently posted doesn't make it unimportant.
Useful Links
Another Podcast:
•Mirage Arcana, ep 11 w/ James Jacobs
General:
•The Sticky Threads (they're at the top of the Kingmaker forums)
•Who Are Your Kingmakers? Get a feel for what other groups are comprised of.
•Kingmaker Obituaries Sometimes it's the player's fault, sometimes it's the GM to blame, and sometimes it's the luck of the dice, but there are lessons to be learned here, if only "don't do this".
•Kingdom {and} City Names Again, getting a feel for what others have made and done; might spark some ideas.
• Kingmaker House Rules By Nethys A good example of a varied and useful set of Kingmaker House Rules.
•Custom Expanded Kingdom Events Table My own horn, sir. You may consider it blown.
Theory:
•First Building for a New City/Kingdom As the title says.
•Kingdom Building Walkthrough See a turn in action to get the wheels greased up.
•Weather In Kingmaker One of the better threads on the subject.
• Why Be a King? Why, indeed?
Book 1: Stolen Land
•Ooh Those Wascawwy Fey: Prank Suggestions Suggestions for non-combat encounters with an encounter area from the first book.
•Why Are the Sootscales Evil? Kobolds, Alignment, and Non-Genocide Solutions
Book 2: Rivers Run Red
•Babhoan Sith An Easy TPK? Clarifications about the 'Dancing Lady' and her powers.
Adapting Kingmakers For Larger Parties
Thanks to Alex Kilcoyne, General Chaos/Shane, and Dean Siemson for all their hard work:
•Converting Book 1-Stolen Land for 6 PCs
•Converting Book 2-Rivers Run Red for 6 PCs
•Converting Book 3-The Varnhold Vanishing for 6 PCs
•Converting Book 4-Blood for Blood for 6 PCs
•Kingmaker Book 5/6 Conversions (Currently up to Book 5)
Wow! Thanks for the very detailed responses. Looks like I've got some reading to do.
Will get back once I have a chance to pore over this stuff.
So you've all convinced me to at least pick up all the books. Even if this group doesn't go for it I'm sure there'll be enough fodder in the series to port into other things.
-Bad things, issues
Unless you take a little time between adventures to plant seeds in each area linking them to other areas, it can feel a little disjointed when players travel from area to area. The best way to deal with this is to USE the Random Encounter tables, and link whatever you've written to:
A) An adjoining Hex's encounter area.
B) An encounter area featuring the creature (example: Rolling a Tatzlwyrm. Perhaps it grabs a small character and attempts to drag it back to the Tatzlwyrm nest that appears in the Stolen Land). This gives the players a sense of connection between multiple areas.
A helpful note to keep in mind. Interconnecting elements to keep up the illusion of a living world make a big difference.
-What type of players would this appeal to?
Etc.
This was very helpful. Especially as I will not really know some of the players so in my pitch I can basically quote your notes and see if it appeals. I think I would particularly emphasize the explorers feel as at least for me that's always been a big reason why I enjoy playing. And well I'm hoping that there won't be a big emphasis on killers (though throwing down with an owlbear is good clean fun.)
Also thanks for the pointers on the kingdom building. Once I have the books I'll have to dig through them. One thing I am worried about is especially for new players having to deal with getting to know the rules, their characters, storylines and kingdom building on top of that. I'll have to look at ways to chunk it down so as not to overwhelm.
Thanks!
Re types of playersDefinitely self-starters and self-doers. This is not the AP for the player who just wants to follow the plot from scene to scene. That type of player will be very confused (see my comments above about half of the adventures in the AP not having enough cohesion.) If your players are the type that take the time to design blue prints to the house that they just bought, actually detail out what kind of followers they have when they take the Leadership feat, etc., then that's definitely for you.
Thanks Atrus for all the info and thoughts. The above note I think is what is going to determine how I go about things. More and more as I read over all the responses I think I will have to put together a short prelude and see what the players like, dislike before going full swing into the path but I think that there's enough stuff in it to make use of albeit in modified form.
I got to say I am impressed by the thorough response Daviot. Very helpful notes and recommended resources.
Overall the biggest thing I think for me is providing some information about the campaign to guage interest (e.g. do you guys want to do the kingdom building stuff or just have it in the background?). It definitely seems that this AP really depends on a group that wants to be hands on in their involvement in stuff beyond their character moreso than a regular AP.
But your notes make it much easier to lay out that pitch.
There have been some excellent responses already, so I'll try to confine myself to just a few brief points about Kingmaker, which is thus far my favorite Paizo AP (displacing Age of Worms).
1. This is a challenging AP to run, requiring a decent amount of work by the DM to bring more NPCs alive (and to make a lot of them up wholesale) and to string the plotline together to keep it from becoming just a disjointed set of encounters, while simultaneously letting PC decisions determine the course more than any other written adventure I can think of. Tons of different ways things can go due to the sandboxy setup and thus lots for the DM to prepare for and/or react to.
2. This game is very rewarding for players that enjoy roleplaying, want to have more control over the world, and are interested in the kingdom building and mass combat aspects. It would be less so for players who either aren't into roleplaying, or who rely heavily on the DM to drive the plot. It also wouldn't be the best choice for players uninterested in the kingdom building and mass combat aspects. As a regular adventure, Kingmaker is decent, but it is the kingdom building and mass combat that elevates it, IMHO.
3. The kingdom building rules are a bit wonky, or at least are susceptible to abuse by powergamers. For that reason, if you have powergamers (or powergamer wannabes) in your group, I recommend either thinking seriously about how much you want to reveal to the group about kingdom building mechanics, or be prepared to houserule extensively to stop abuses.