Sorry if I should have posted this in the products section.
What do people think of marketing a version of Pathfinder to a younger crowd? I know a lot of gamers who are starting to introduce their kids into gaming and there isn't a lot of games out there that are really trying to bring in new gamers to the hobby (I don't believe that 4th Ed succeeded here). Pathfinder itself is a complex game and is rather intimidating to new players.
So what if Paizo released a simplified of Pathfinder (I'm calling it Trailblazer for simplicity)? Something simple that would be easy to teach, learn, and play. Would people be interested if Paizo released this type of thing as a secondary line? What suggestions would you have for doing this?
a) The term "Trailblazer" is in use by another OGL product.
b) A starter set is in the pipeline, although it's in the preliminary stages.
A beginner's version of pathfinder isn't a bad idea, especially for reaching out to the younger crowd. The full weight of the pathfinder rules - literally and figuratively - could be intimidating for new players.
However, there's already another rpg called trailblazer. Under another name, perhaps?
Good, I'm glad to see they are thinking that way. Wish I hadn't missed it but I guess I should have checked the products after all.
As for Trailblazer, I was just throwing it out there as a suggestion. I wasn't aware that there was an RPG with that name out there, I just that it was appropriate.
I never understand this perennial request. I got into OD&D when I was 13. I wanted more, more, more. I was never interested in anything simpler or easier and I absorbed every book, every supplement and every magazine I could get my hands on.
Are we making the mistake of thinking kids are dumber than 30 years ago? Because they're not. Kids who'd be interested in D&D/Pathfinder are kids who have not only the mental aptitude but also the mental inquisitiveness to read through a long but well-written ruleset.
Are we making the mistake of thinking kids are dumber than 30 years ago? Because they're not. Kids who'd be interested in D&D/Pathfinder are kids who have not only the mental aptitude but also the mental inquisitiveness to read through a long but well-written ruleset.
Dumber? No.
Less inclined to jump into a 574-page RPG? Most definitely so.
We didn't have instant-action video games anywhere near as in-depth "back then" competing for time.
The books were also a lot smaller 30 years ago.
The intro set is something to whet the appetite, and not be so overwhelming, and it would/should be designed to drive players into the full game, the Core Rulebook.
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Are we making the mistake of thinking kids are dumber than 30 years ago? Because they're not. Kids who'd be interested in D&D/Pathfinder are kids who have not only the mental aptitude but also the mental inquisitiveness to read through a long but well-written ruleset.Dumber? No.
Less inclined to jump into a 574-page RPG? Most definitely so.
This. Tabletop rpgs have to compete against video games, MMOs, CCG, whose basics take, what, an hour or two to set and get moving. TRPGs need someone to know the rules well enough to GM, guide the players to create PCs, AND run an adventure fun enough to compete against all the other distractions. Massive tomes are not going to cut it.
I never understand this perennial request. I got into OD&D when I was 13. I wanted more, more, more. I was never interested in anything simpler or easier and I absorbed every book, every supplement and every magazine I could get my hands on.
Are we making the mistake of thinking kids are dumber than 30 years ago? Because they're not. Kids who'd be interested in D&D/Pathfinder are kids who have not only the mental aptitude but also the mental inquisitiveness to read through a long but well-written ruleset.
Actually the parents I know have extremely bright kids, but the oldest are about 7-8. It's more time and attention span that is the issue. Keep in mind that 30 years ago D&D was not as complex as it is now. When 3rd Ed came out I knew gamers who thought it was too complex for them.
As far as gaming as a hobby, the more players drawn into the hobby the better and not just for game makers. Remember you need demand before supply is needed and 30 years ago we really didn't have video games as an alternate hobby.
Edit: Wow was I ninjaed
I wonder if anyone has polled actual kids on this? Forgive me, but it sounds like an adult's idea of what kids would like.
I wonder if anyone has polled actual kids on this? Forgive me, but it sounds like an adult's idea of what kids would like.
A number of market surveys have been done.
We know there's competition from outside the market. We know that the market has a shrinking customer base.
*I* know that several adolescents and young adults have stated a disinclination to try the game given the size of the tome and it's comparable cost to a video game.
I'll ask again, as I did in another thread, what could one possibly have AGAINST a product like this? It's not going to replace the core. It's only going to attempt to bring more people to market. The core still exists for the group of people you proposed wouldn't want a product like this.
If you can't understand why people would request this, I can't fathom why anyone would be opposed to this. It's obvious that people ARE requesting it. There's already a demonstrated market for it. *I* will buy one, or more likely, multiple copies to gift to people that I want to get into the hobby.
I'll ask again, as I did in another thread, what could one possibly have AGAINST a product like this? It's not going to replace the core. It's only going to attempt to bring more people to market. The core still exists for the group of people you proposed wouldn't want a product like this.
I don't have a strong opinion on the issue, but I'll play devil's advocate:
1) Wizards of the Coast has put out various "Intro to D&D" products over the past 10 years, and it never seemed to me that any of them were particularly successful since BECMI D&D. I hope that Paizo focuses on products that will keep the company healthy and profitable (e.g. I hope they don't spend money developing "Buck Rogers: Pathfinder Edition").
2) If they come out with a simplified system, then there will be two parallel product lines to support. In that kind of situation, my experience is that the less popular/profitable product line tends to suffer until it stops getting any support at all. There are exceptions, of course.
I hope Paizo has the best of luck with whatever they come up with!
1) Wizards of the Coast has put out various "Intro to D&D" products over the past 10 years, and it never seemed to me that any of them were particularly successful since BECMI D&D. I hope that Paizo focuses on products that will keep the company healthy and profitable (e.g. I hope they don't spend money developing "Buck Rogers: Pathfinder Edition").
The 1070 "Black Box" D&D Game sold massively well when it was released in 1991, getting multiple reprints throughout the 1990's. This boxed set, with its "Dragon Cards" lessons, was one of Lorraine Williams few good ideas.
This was a re-boot of the earlier basic sets, and served as a lead-in to the "Rules Cyclopedia". 1070 served as Basic where "Rules Cyclopedia" was BECM in a single hardback, and the seperate box set "Wrath of the Immortals" was the I.
The "setting" was Mystara for these products.
2) If they come out with a simplified system, then there will be two parallel product lines to support. In that kind of situation, my experience is that the less popular/profitable product line tends to suffer until it stops getting any support at all. There are exceptions, of course.
How so? I don't expect Paizo to repeat the Essentials blunder, and release a separate line of products. Such an intro set would be an evergreen, mass market-targeted entry set designed to introduce people to the game and feed them into a Core Rulebook purchase.
Support for this product would be the exact same support for the Core Rulebook. Not a separate product line/support line.
1) Wizards of the Coast has put out various "Intro to D&D" products over the past 10 years, and it never seemed to me that any of them were particularly successful since BECMI D&D. I hope that Paizo focuses on products that will keep the company healthy and profitable (e.g. I hope they don't spend money developing "Buck Rogers: Pathfinder Edition").The 1070 "Black Box" D&D Game sold massively well when it was released in 1991, getting multiple reprints throughout the 1990's. This boxed set, with its "Dragon Cards" lessons, was one of Lorraine Williams few good ideas.
Well, I said "Wizards of the Coast" (i.e. not TSR) and "since BECMI", so I was particularly excluding your (20 year old) example. Yes, I agree that there has been a popular beginner version of D&D at one point in time. But Wizards of the Coast has done a number of versions in the past 10 years that haven't done so well.
Support for this product would be the exact same support for the Core Rulebook. Not a separate product line/support line.
You don't think it's odd that the examples you used of successful D&D products for beginners were separate product lines, then?
At any rate, I'm a risk-averse pessimist and I'd make a terrible entrepreneur. Luckily, I don't have to be one, and I can be pleasantly surprised when a company like Paizo does better than I expect! :-)
Well, I said "Wizards of the Coast" (i.e. not TSR) and "since BECMI", so I was particularly excluding your (20 year old) example. Yes, I agree that there has been a popular beginner version of D&D at one point in time. But Wizards of the Coast has done a number of versions in the past 10 years that haven't done so well.
I could be arguing semantics, sure, but I considered Black Box/Rules Cyclopedia/Wrath a distinct product rather than a reprint of the original BECMI, which was a distinct product from B/X.
You don't think it's odd that the examples you used of successful D&D products for beginners were separate product lines, then?
Nah, because their product line was already fragmented with separate, competing lines to begin with - but that's me.
I think the success of earlier, well-crafted entry products, especially in light of the fragmented product lines, bodes well for Paizo and their tight, focused product line.
This might sound like an absolutely crazy and stupid idea but how about an official instructional dvd or series of videos. There could be various sections. Some sections related to the player could include, character creation, basics on combat and non combat encounters, and any miscellany related to the player. There could even be a couple of sections related to the gm just in case there's no learned gm in the group.
Not crazy, but not interesting to me, and I would think that it would drive the price up, as it wouldn't really replace what's needed in the intro set.
Of course, I'm also not the target market, so who knows?
This is an idea I've toyed with for some time. I'm getting close to making a serious go at it, but I'm not thinking that trying to do a "basic" version of PF is the way to go. Instead, I'm leaning more toward the Microlite d20 end of the spectrum, aimed at something like the 8-11 year old demographic.