I will be starting up this AP in a few days and I have been wondering how I can give the PCs a sense of where they are on the island without giving them an actual map. As no detailed map of the island is provided (in game) to the characters, I feel a bit odd giving them a map, even if it is a blank version depicting just the island.
I thought that perhaps one of the PCs might be bright and take ranks in Profession (Cartographer) or Craft (Map) but as these are not listed along side common options for the respective skills I doubt that will happen.
So I am curious about how other DMs have delt with this issue. Did you simply give them the map in the AP or did you let them nagivate blind? I was thinking that I could have one of the NPCs take ranks in Profession (Cartography) and they could then make a simple outline of the island, drawing from the map of the inner seas found in Jenivere's wreckage. As the PCs explore the island, they could fill the map in.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
I will be starting up this AP in a few days and I have been wondering how I can give the PCs a sense of where they are on the island without giving them an actual map. As no detailed map of the island is provided (in game) to the characters, I feel a bit odd giving them a map, even if it is a blank version depicting just the island.
I thought that perhaps one of the PCs might be bright and take ranks in Profession (Cartographer) or Craft (Map) but as these are not listed along side common options for the respective skills I doubt that will happen.
So I am curious about how other DMs have delt with this issue. Did you simply give them the map in the AP or did you let them nagivate blind? I was thinking that I could have one of the NPCs take ranks in Profession (Cartography) and they could then make a simple outline of the island, drawing from the map of the inner seas found in Jenivere's wreckage. As the PCs explore the island, they could fill the map in.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
If they explore the Jenivere, they get a basic map of the island. What I did was trace an outline of the island on white paper and filled it in as they explored. if they don't explore the Jenevere, I would not have done this for them.
If they explore the Jenivere, they get a basic map of the island. What I did was trace an outline of the island on white paper and filled it in as they explored. if they don't explore the Jenevere, I would not have done this for them.
To quote the actual AP:
I took this to mean that the map of Desperation Bay would not be suitable to be used to navigate the island. I thought of allowing the PCs to draft a bigger version of the small scale outline that they could use for exploring.
Did you just give them a map or did you make them create one themselves using checks? I really want to drive home the idea that they are lost and stranded so perhaps the outline is the best route. Thanks for your input.
I grabbed a copy of someone's image from the SfSS GM thread which is just an outline of the island on a hex grid. It seems like it will be useful to describe where they are by the grid numbers, but they have no idea what the features of the island may be from just the outline.
Just checked the thread, the image I'm using was posted by daemonslye about halfway down the second page. The link to his map is HERE.
Part of it is for ease of play. It made it easier to run the game. I didn't even bother having them make checks to get lost. There is so many other things to worry about.
I would have made them make rolls if they did not have access to a map. And I would not have even given them an outline of the island.
I only traced the outer edges. They have no info on trails, hills, rivers, etc. Absolutely no notes on anything.
I used Alexander Kilcoyne's outline map (thank you! btw) but I'm lazy and don't have a printer so I made my players look at it on the computer screen. Which sits about 9 feet away from where they sit on the couch without wanting to get up (more lazy!). Distance + lazy = an excellent sense of vagueness about where they think they're going.
If they explore the Jenivere, they get a basic map of the island.Did you just give them a map ...
They most definitely explored the Jenivere, so I printed out a poor-quality copy of the map and gave it to them. Given all the other stuff you need to keep track of for this ... it's just easier to have them point at a general spot on the map and say "We're going here".
I just picked up the map pack for this AP and there is a wonderful poster-sized map of the island with no location markers on it. I wish I had it from the start!!
I am assuming a general spoiler tag on this thread so you have been warned.
I traced the outline of the island, making the odd mistake here and there, remember the last time anyone cared about this place was what 200years ago?
I made some notes on the map that a ships navigator would find useful. I noted the location of the old colony, adding a note that there was no safe approach with out a pilot. I also noted red mountain and the great tree as these are longstanding landmarks that are clearly visible from ships. I threw distance and angle markings that a navigator could use to get back on course to somewhere civilized. Then I soaked the whole thing in 2 day old coffe and walked on it a bit once it was dry. It looks worn like it came out of a wrecked ship.
It is also rather fragile and the players will not get a replacement if it tears. If they want to make a copy I have nice clean strong outlines available to represent their chatacters successful craft:revelent skill but the notes and such they can add.
This all assumes of course that someone has paper to write on. Ink and pens wouuld be handy as well.
~will
I thought that perhaps one of the PCs might be bright and take ranks in Profession (Cartographer) or Craft (Map) but as these are not listed along side common options for the respective skills I doubt that will happen.
Just to let you know that due to your complaint, I have created a character with Profession:Cartographer made for the Serpent's Skull campaign PbP. It does sound logical to have a mapper in the party as they slog their way through the Mwangi Expanse. It's also made me think about other campaigns I want to RPG in where a cartographer would make sense.
Now to be picked up by a play-by-post of Serpent's Skull...
Cheers guys thats very handy. This whole forum for the Serpent Skull AP has been fantastic with all the downloadable stuff people have put up. So yeah thanks guys you've made my job so much easier.
This post is perhaps a bit late but I thought I would share with you all the map I allowed my players to have. On the Jenivere they found a map of Desperation Bay and from that, Ishiro was able to draw up the following map.
So far the map has been very useful for navigating. One of my PCs has taken on the roll of navigator and has, for the most part, successfully filled in the northeastern portion of the map. I think that at the end of this AP I will give him some sort of bonus to skill checks or perhaps bonus XP for his efforts.
Naturally none of my PCs had the forethought to take ranks in Profession Cartographer or Craft (Map). One of them took ranks in Profession (Midwife) in hopes of bypassing the need for ranks in Heal but I am letting him fall flat for that decision.
Anyhow, I hope this map is found to be useful. :) I may post more of my generated content and perhaps some maps I have made of encounter sites and important areas.
I thought that perhaps one of the PCs might be bright and take ranks in Profession (Cartographer) or Craft (Map) but as these are not listed along side common options for the respective skills I doubt that will happen.Just to let you know that due to your complaint, I have created a character with Profession: Cartographer made for the Serpent's Skull campaign PbP. It does sound logical to have a mapper in the party as they slog their way through the Mwangi Expanse. It's also made me think about other campaigns I want to RPG in where a cartographer would make sense.
Now to be picked up by a play-by-post of Serpent's Skull...
Cartographers/Mappers are always important to any campaign. Here are some other professions that might come in handy for any adventurer planning to explore the Mwangi Expanse.
Profession (Archaeologist), (Butcher), (Fisherman), (Herbalist), (Tracker) and (Trapper).
Also, the Bard/Druid 0 Level Know Direction spell is invaluable!
As someone who does archaeology, I fail to see how it would actually be a valuable skill while exploring there. As something of a preemtive post, I'd like to offer archaeology is the study of dead human cultures. Putting it in perspective of the Pathfinder world, we can take out the word human, and consider it the study of dead cultures. So, though I think exploring the Mwangi expanse would be facinating (especially for an archaeologist, see below) I don't see how being an archaeologist would help the exploration.
One other point to consider...archaeology is a subfield of anthropology. Which would likely help out an explorer...though it's kinda a funny subject, in that it really is a BUNCH of different subjects. Me personally, I know (have studied) a bit of the cultures of the pacific...so were on to find myself on an island there, I would possibly be better off than say someone who spent their time studying law or english. Were I to find myself in a middle eastern country, I would likely be just as screwed as the law/english major. I don't think there should be a skill Profession (anthropologist), I think there should be a Knowledge (choose a specific culture) skill.
Also, tracker and trapper seem to me to already be covered by survival. I appologize if these are actually listed under the Profession skill. I'm not looking at my books as I type this.
As someone who does archaeology, I fail to see how it would actually be a valuable skill while exploring there.
...so were on to find myself on an island there, I would possibly be better off than say someone who spent their time studying law or english. Were I to find myself in a middle eastern country, I would likely be just as screwed as the law/english major.
The PCs are on an island, not in a middle eastern flavored area.
Also, tracker and trapper seem to me to already be covered by survival. I apologize if these are actually listed under the Profession skill. I'm not looking at my books as I type this.
Trapper is actually listed under the Profession skill options. Both trapping and tracking could be considered factors of the Survival skill but to be a professional ensures that not only can your character solve common problems associated with their profession but they can earn money doing it or aid others in doing so.
While someone who rolls a good Survival check can manage to scavenge food and water a trapper with a proper Profession (Trapper) check could potentially find animal burrows and setup proper traps with the requisite Craft (Trap) skill.
I've skimmed the first three books, and very briefly skimmed the last three. Obviously a more thurough reading of the first book should be on my list of to dos.
My point with anthropology is that it isn't as broad as just anthropology. It should be seperated by culture. Saying "I understand culture" is sorta like saying "I speak other language." But honestly I feel this same way about survival...so maybe it's a me thing.
The rules support your argument...or rather what you said above does a logical explanation of the rules. I just don't feel that's how things should be. When I run games, there is no Profession (trapper), it's part of survival. To me scavenging food is part of it, but so is hunting. Killing a deer and preparing it for food for you to eat isn't that much different from killing a deer and preparing the meet for others to eat, after paying you.
I've skimmed the first three books, and very briefly skimmed the last three. Obviously a more thurough reading of the first book should be on my list of to dos.
This is always a good thing. My suggestions and arguments are based solely on the rules of the Pathfinder setting.
My point with anthropology is that it isn't as broad as just anthropology. It should be seperated by culture. Saying "I understand culture" is sorta like saying "I speak other language." But honestly I feel this same way about survival...so maybe it's a me thing.
I was simply saying that the skills an archaeologist might have would be of use for this particular adventure path. If it is the word archaeologist that is tripping you up consider the following: Profession (Excavator), (Historian) or even (Prehistorian).
The rules support your argument...or rather what you said above does a logical explanation of the rules. I just don't feel that's how things should be. When I run games, there is no Profession (trapper), it's part of survival. To me scavenging food is part of it, but so is hunting. Killing a deer and preparing it for food for you to eat isn't that much different from killing a deer and preparing the meet for others to eat, after paying you.
I am sorry if you have an issue with the rules and luckily for you a DM can run a game anyway they prefer. It is a bit odd that in your games there are no professional trappers or trackers as these were common professions appropriate for the time period. Survival is the ability of a PC to survive which doesn’t automatically mean that they know how to hunt, kill and butcher animals. Profession (Hunter) would allow a PC to kill animals with ease and they could even make a living doing it. Profession (Butcher) would allow a PC to get the most meat off of a corpse, meat that people would pay for. The point is that anyone relying on Survival is not an expert at hunting, tracking, trapping or butchering, nor could they make a decent living doing any of those things (according to the rules).
With all do respect, the word archaeologist isn't tripping me up at all. I'm pretty familiar with the definition. Which I explained above.
As for the Profession (trapper) discussion. Of course there are professional trappers in my world. They use the survival skill. Part of my problem with the rules as writen in this regard is the limited amount of skills available to character. In a hunter/gatherer society, the hunters often serve double duty as warriors. So equating this to NPC classes, you have experts, warriors, or a multiclass expert/warrior. Intelligence wouldn't be the highest stat here I think...so we have a hard time filling out all the skills required to be a good hunter/gatherer. So instead of having needless (in my opinion) skills, I prefer to trim the fat and run with the most bang for a buck. Obviously your milage varries.
Also, appropriate for the time period? What time period are we talking about? Exactly what time period did dragons exist in? Pathfinder isn't a historical game.