One of my players is interested in playing a Rogue with the Poisoner archetype but after looking it over we were left wondering if the substitutions are a fair trade.
First, 'Poison Use' replaces 'Trapfinding'. Being able to apply poison without fear of harming yourself is a great talent but to loose the ever increasing bonuses to finding and disabling traps is a big loss. 'Poison Use' dosen't get better as you gain levels but it might be a fair trade, I'm on the fence. I feel like there should perhaps be the same bonus (1/2 Level, min +1) given to Fortitude saves made to resist being poisoned as a result of exposure and building up an immunity. Any thoughts on this?
Second, 'Master Poisoner' replaces 'Trap Sense'. This is another example of an ever improving trait being replaced by a stagnant one. Will the rogue loose its trap sense all together or would it just pick up at level six? Is the ability to change a poison's type worth loosing the ever improving bonuses to avoid taking damage from traps?
I would be interested to hear anyone's experience playing with this archetype and how the adjustments worked out. Any advice would be great.
Basically, it has to do with the Poisoner archetype not being a traps specialist the way basic rogues are.
While poison use doesn't scale in the same way that trapfinding does it scale in a way since being higher level means access to better poisons.
Losing Trap Sense altogether means you won't pick it up at level 6. And Master Poisoner does scale with level, meaning it's not stagnant as you say.
Bottom line is that a poisoner is a rogue that's focused on poisons rather than being a generalist, and doing so he or she has spent less time learning about traps. If you plan on being the person in the group dealing with traps, then this archetype probably isn't for you.
Oh, and unfortunately I haven't seen any poisoners in my group yet. I imagine they do quite well in games that aren't very traps-heavy, or games where you have other ways of dealing with traps (such as having another rogue or urban ranger in the party)
I'm with OneSoulLegion on this one; they scale just fine.
First of all, Poison Use isn't about hardening yourself to the effects of poison. It's about having a delicate hand and not accidentally dosing yourself when applying the poison. It's basic immunity to poisoning yourself. Trapfinding scales for one particular reason: It's a bonus to the effect, not a flat immunity. Because DCs will get harder as the levels come, a simple +2/4/whatever won't cut it. It allows a rogue to either be the best trapfinder the group could have, or to slack on her trapfinding skills and still remain as competitive as any ally. It's also worth noting that fortitude saves are notoriously poor on Rogues, so a flat immunity to a common danger (for a poison-based character) far exceeds a simple bonus. This is keeping in mind that poison DCs will scale as you use stronger toxins, while your fort save will lag considerably.
Secondly, losing trap sense is hardly a loss in my book. Generally it just sits on my character sheet as a quiet assurance that if I miss a trap (shame on you, trapfinder) or accidentally set off a trap (double shame on you, trapfinder) I won't succumb to the ills of a botched go. Generally speaking, a good majority of traps are reflex based, and Rogues are hand and fist ahead of the other characters in terms of reflex saves. The ability to boost poison use as a trade is an excellent thing for anyone who wants to focus on poisons. They're expensive and easy to save against, often rendering them useless.
Bottom line is that a poisoner is a rogue that's focused on poisons rather than being a generalist, and doing so he or she has spent less time learning about traps. If you plan on being the person in the group dealing with traps, then this archetype probably isn't for you.
I have to agree with you there. Unfrotunately this probably means that he won't be taking his archetype as the ability to locate and disable traps is rather crucial in our setting. Thanks for your input, really helpfull.
It's also worth noting that fortitude saves are notoriously poor on Rogues, so a flat immunity to a common danger (for a poison-based character) far exceeds a simple bonus. This is keeping in mind that poison DCs will scale as you use stronger toxins, while your fort save will lag considerably.
Excellent point. This is exactly the justification I was looking for. Thanks for your insight.