Instead of merely pointing out stuff you dislike, let's discuss how you'd change the Ninja if you had the power to do so. Remember to post your reasons for each change to keep this as constructive as possible. I'll start things off:
Change: Reduce the number of skill ranks gained per level from 8 to 6.
Reason: Helps to differentiate the ninja from the rogue. Reducing the total number of ranks helps to balance out the edge given to the ninja with its slew of cool supernatural abilities. The highest number of skills has always been the rogue's trademark. Let's keep it that way.
Change: Change the charisma dependent abilities to wisdom dependent. Remove diplomacy from the skill list. Add survival to the skill list.
Reason: Ki abilities have so far been dependent on wisdom. I see no reason to change that. Also, since the aim is to create a fantasy ninja instead of an historical one, wouldn't it be better to go for the silent loner type than the social one? Removing diplomacy from the skill list would also make sense, and help further differentiate it from the regular rogue, who can also act as a party face.
Change: Remove the ability to use certain abilities free once per day.
Reason: I just don't see the point.
Change: Reduce the duration of the Vanishing Trick ninja trick to 1 round for all levels. Possibly make the Vanishing Trick available to the ninja as soon as it gains access to its Ki pool.
Reason: Giving the ninja access to a quickened vanish for a single ki point is insane. A single round of vanish is enough to allow it to make a quick getaway, get past enemies without being seen or set up sneak attacks. If it wants to do so for a longer time, it should have to pay the price. As it is it makes a high stealth skill pretty redundant at higher levels, as well as overshadow the rogue massively.
Also, every single ninja will take this ninja trick. There's no need to tax them all, and with my proposed nerf I think it wouldn't be too unbalanced to give it to them.
I know this might seem a bit harsh on the ninja, but as it stands I really like the ninja class and would just like to see it on par with the rogue.
Regardless the balance discussion (I think that ninja is fine go figure) wis based ninja, 6 skill point/level makes it very similar to the WotC complete adventurer one.
I don't know if this is an issue, but..
Purpose we change the name of ninja to assassin, which we already have and not make special oriental character classes.
on the flip side, we already have cavalier, so we dont need samurai, use the print space to dream up more orders and more rogue talents.
Purpose we change the name of ninja to assassin, which we already have and not make special oriental character classes.
on the flip side, we already have cavalier, so we dont need samurai, use the print space to dream up more orders and more rogue talents.
This seems far more a removal than a change :D
I could be wrong, but still :P
Wide sweeping change!
Regardless the balance discussion (I think that ninja is fine go figure) wis based ninja, 6 skill point/level makes it very similar to the WotC complete adventurer one.
I don't know if this is an issue, but..
People keep bringing this up. I don't get it. Why should something WotC made have any impact whatsoever on the direction we take the Pathfinder ninja?
Also, I know you said you didn't think this was an issue, so this isn't direceted at you, Kaiyan :)
Having seen a few platests which somewhat assuage my worries over Ninja power, I still think the skill points should be lessened. If its a more combat focused rogue, make it lose out on the skill side of the class a bit.
Ki from charisma.. i kinda like it. it's a ki coming from revenge, ambition. In opposition to the inner tranquillity of monk.
Like force. Monk-Jedi and Ninja-Sith, we could say.
Ninja will be likely to still have less skill points of most rogues I think. They have Charisma to pimp.
Ki from charisma.. i kinda like it. it's a ki coming from revenge, ambition. In opposition to the inner tranquillity of monk.
Like force. Monk-Jedi and Ninja-Sith, we could say.
Ninja will be likely to still have less skill points of most rogues I think. They have Charisma to pimp.
This +1
This +1Ki from charisma.. i kinda like it. it's a ki coming from revenge, ambition. In opposition to the inner tranquillity of monk.
Like force. Monk-Jedi and Ninja-Sith, we could say.
Ninja will be likely to still have less skill points of most rogues I think. They have Charisma to pimp.
+1
and I don't agree with the vanish either, ninja should just be the invisible character, that is pretty much their defense
I am fine with the ninja as is but I thought of this todaybandvthought I'd share.
I wonder all the talentsbusing ki could have their own talent section taking any as a rogue could give you ki. then theorist of ninja could be done as a normal archetype.
I think for most of the ninja stuff this works but the acrobatics or haste stuff it may not. I think ALOT of rogues grab thevacrobatics stuff.
This +1Ki from charisma.. i kinda like it. it's a ki coming from revenge, ambition. In opposition to the inner tranquillity of monk.
Like force. Monk-Jedi and Ninja-Sith, we could say.
Ninja will be likely to still have less skill points of most rogues I think. They have Charisma to pimp.
+1
and I don't agree with the vanish either, ninja should just be the invisible character, that is pretty much their defense
I disagree about the invis. Invisibility makes stealth a cakewalk for the most part and that is not good mechanics for playing a class that focuses on stealth. Why dump points into stealth if you get the +20 from being invisible. Its nice to have the ability to vanish though, and hide behind cover. That enhances the stealth skill, rather than replace it.
Like force. Monk-Jedi and Ninja-Sith, we could say.
Now we're gonna see a bunch of tiefling ninja using brilliant energy flaming double swords. :P
I like the Cha/Ki thing quite a bit. It helps balance the character. You have to choose how you want to balance your Skills, Will saves, and Ki points. You won't be able to have it all.
But I feel like the Vanishing and Assassinate ability are a tad over-powered. Using Vanish 1/day for free bugs me. Almost any free spell-like ability per day bugs me unless it's a racial trait. Assassinate at 10 level bugs me. Easier DC, maybe? High Ki cost? Seems the Ki cost is a great way to balance lots of things with the Ninja.
I think using the ranger as the chassis, but I view my ninjas as more combat than skills specialist. The ability to be invisible at higher levels, and say screw you to magical detection is awesome.
To be more specific the guide ranger variant with a few skill changes is the ultimate ninja, IMHO.
I would up the skills to 8 from the ranger's 6, and drop the ranger luck(I doubt that is the correct name). I would also have a bonus to social skill checks at certain levels.
Change: Remove the ability to use certain abilities free once per day.
Reason: I just don't see the point.
You really don't see the point? To help with resource management of course!
Lots of people were asking for once per day freebies (and more uses with resource expenditure) in other playtests, such as the Magus with his arcane pool abilities.
Guess you can't please everyone.
I'd keep the Ninja as it is and buff the Rogue through archetypes, Rogue-specific feats and Rogue Talents.
and I don't agree with the vanish either, ninja should just be the invisible character, that is pretty much their defense
What about a regular rogue? What is "pretty much their defense"? What do they have access to that is good enough to warrant the ninjas being always invisible?
Guess you can't please everyone.
Evidently not.
I see no reason why ninjas should get special treatment over other classes. You don't see bards or barbarians getting free rounds of rage or performance per day. You don't see monks getting any free abilities once per day to help manage their resources. There's no reason for it beyond "freebies are cool". Either make the abilities free or don't.
I see no reason why ninjas should get special treatment over other classes. You don't see bards or barbarians getting free rounds of rage or performance per day. You don't see monks getting any free abilities once per day to help manage their resources. There's no reason for it beyond "freebies are cool". Either make the abilities free or don't.
Because Bards and Barbarians get copious amounts of rounds of Bardic Music and Rage. The Ninja gets about 3-4 rounds at second level and will get about 9-11 ki points at level 10. At level 10 a "normal" Bard or Barbarian has something like 27 rounds/day of their special resource.
.1: Make Ki pool and all tricks using it wisdom-based.
Reason: It makes sense, since it makes it coherent with the monk ability.
.2: Remove Light Step at 6th level, and make it into a ninja trick that consumes 1 ki/use.
Reason: This is a freebie feature if you compare the class with the rogue. This is unbalanced for an alternative class.
.4: Remove Forgotten Trick.
Reason: It is an awful mechanic that will result in "I must take this, cause it is too good not to", as well as "Why take trick X, which is situational, when I can just take Forgotten Trick instead?" If it works with Combat Trick or not is irrelevant.
.5: Remove "once per day for free" from feather fall, OR have a prerequisite trick.
Reason: This ability is comparable to the rogue talent Major magic, which I think it is balanced in comparison to (2/day spell-like pick any, vs 1/day + 1/ki supernatural pick specific ... I'd say that is quite balanced), if it was not for the fact that Major magic requires Minor magic.
.6: Remove rogue talent trick.
Reason: The ninja will always have things that the rogue could never have (even if non-ki-using tricks would be made available to rogues). Thus, it is only fair that the rogue will have talents that the ninja will never have (it might be enough to limit the ninja from advanced rogue talents though).
.7: Shadow clone should have a lower-powered prerequisite (probably a trick that reproduces a level 1 spell, such as feather fall or ventriloquism).
Reason: This is a second level spell. Without prerequisites it would be vastly superior to the comparable rogue talents Minor magic & Major Magic.
.8: Sudden disguise should be a standard action, as the spell Disguise self, and it should have either a prerequisite or not have one free use.
Reason: Same as in .5. And swift action is just cheese.
.9: Vanishing trick should be a standard action, not have a free use, and have a lower-powered prerequisite (reproducing a level 1 spell).
Reason: Come ON. Swift action? Really? Also, same as .7, and the freebie use makes no sense in the world to me.
.10: Ventriloquism should be a standard action, have a prerequisite trick or not a free use.
Reason: Same as .8.
.11: Give Ki charge a lower-powered prerequisite (something comparable to a first level spell.)
Reason: My gut tells me this is a second level spell in essence. Thus, same as .7.
I will go through the master tricks in another post.
As well:
Make all tricks that are not using ki available to rogues as a rogue talent.
Reason: They make sense as rogue talents, and it increases the balance between the classes.
IMHO, Ziiiiiiiiit, low level prerequisite are a bad idea because cripple flexibility of classes. Are like forcing wizards to take fireball if they want meteor swarm.
Said this, your "nerfs" are more power level adjustements mainly on action economy - I'd leave the class as-is, but in case, I find your analysis the best compromise.
well done, sir.
IMHO, Ziiiiiiiiit, low level prerequisite are a bad idea because cripple flexibility of classes. Are like forcing wizards to take fireball if they want meteor swarm.
Said this, your "nerfs" are more power level adjustements mainly on action economy - I'd leave the class as-is, but in case, I find your analysis the best compromise.
well done, sir.
Thank you! I would have to agree with you that prerequisites are in essence bad, since it limits the amount of possible builds. And my comparison to Minor magic/Major magic is simply because it is an alternative class to the rogue. I do not like how those rogue talents work so...
I guess this means that removing the freebie use of Feather fall, Ventriloquism and Sudden disguise would be preferable. Not sure how I would like to balance Ki charge, Shadow clone and Vanishing trick further though (without a prerequisite trick).
I might suggest removing the area effect on Ki charge though (making it a first level spell imo), and perhaps make Shadow clone only produce ONE image (similar to the domain power Copycat in the Trickery domain).
Vanishing trick is harder though... I might actually agree with the original poster that this might fit better as a part of the standard ki pool abilities, since all ninjas will take it anyway. I would probably remove the +4 to Stealth option then though. I might want it to be only 1 round duration then, and probably a move action (allowing you to either use it offensively for an attack, or defensively to hide with your remaining move action and stealth - also, it would still be possible to use in conjunction with shadow split [assumably a standard action?], although you would not be able to move away yourself. I might suggest that Invisible blade would increase the duration of the vanish by 1 round though...).
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Everyone keeps stating how overpowered forgotten trick is. It's not. As mentioned before, a lot of ninja tricks are situational. When those times come up, a ninja with forgotten trick is going to be spending double the ki they normally would. IMHO the only reason to take this trick is if you don't have darkvision. Then on the few occurances when it's necessary for combat you will pay the extra ki point. However, for a Half-Orc ninja there are just too many other ninja tricks to make you more effective in combat. Plus, ki is a very limited resource that needs to be saved for extra attacks and the vanishing trick.
If you want to be slightly more adaptable, take forgotten trick. The versatility is nice but as magnuskn mentioned ki is very limited. You'll lose focus and focus is what turns the ninja (and any class really) into a death machine.
Everyone keeps stating how overpowered forgotten trick is. It's not. As mentioned before, a lot of ninja tricks are situational. When those times come up, a ninja with forgotten trick is going to be spending double the ki they normally would. IMHO the only reason to take this trick is if you don't have darkvision. Then on the few occurances when it's necessary for combat you will pay the extra ki point. However, for a Half-Orc ninja there are just too many other ninja tricks to make you more effective in combat. Plus, ki is a very limited resource that needs to be saved for extra attacks and the vanishing trick.
If you want to be slightly more adaptable, take forgotten trick. The versatility is nice but as magnuskn mentioned ki is very limited. You'll lose focus and focus is what turns the ninja (and any class really) into a death machine.
If the only reason why you would ever take Forgotten trick is if you don't have darkvision, what would be the reason to take the Darkvision trick then? None. What would be the reason to take any situational ninja trick? None. Forgotten trick is not necessarily (that) overpowered (it scales down as level goes up anyway, as you receive more ninja tricks), it is simply a bad mechanic.
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Also, using a level 20 ability and saying that makes the class overpowered is a mute point. Yes it is overpowered but it does not make the class overpowered. The level 20 abilities are for flavor and not much more. By the time players get that high encounters have balance issues themselves.
As far as vanishing trick meaning a ninja doesn't have to invest in the stealth skill, that's not accurate. The +20 to stealth effectively becomes +10 when a ninja moves at full speed. Of course fast stealth trick negates this but a ninja who invests in two tricks simply to become good at stealth should be darn good at stealth.
The developers repeatedly state that their idea of a ninja is an infiltrator so I'll use that as their "niche". There are typically three types of infiltration: talk, stealth, and fight. To augment talking their way through, they have tricks for disguise and such. To augment stealthing their way through, they have vanishing act and fast stealth. Combat should be a last resort for the infiltrating ninja.
Now at lower levels stealthing can be really hard. A ninja who wants to stealth his way through is going to have just as rough time as the rogue. However, the rogue's niche is traps while the ninja's is infiltration. With vanishing trick he gets an edge that will drastically improve his stealth capabilities at low levels. As the levels get higher, more creatures have ways around invisibility. Any target worth assassinating by a ninja will surely have ways to counter invisibility or else any old wizard could just saunter right past their defenses. Therefore, the ninja goes back to using stealth.
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If the only reason why you would ever take Forgotten trick is if you don't have darkvision, what would be the reason to take the Darkvision trick then? None. What would be the reason to take any situational ninja trick? None. Forgotten trick is not necessarily (that) overpowered (it scales down as level goes up anyway, as you receive more ninja tricks), it is simply a bad mechanic.
Well if you want the real reason check my blindsight thread. I think the developers were on to something when they made Invisible Blade enhance a pre-existing trick as if to gain a master trick one must first have the basics. But that's a different discussion.
You would take the darkvision trick so you wouldn't spen 2 ki everytime you want darkvision. The ninja taking the darkvision trick over forgotten trick is saying to herself, "Ok, sure I won't be able to react to every situation but I should be able to avoid those situations anyways."
If this ninja gets blown off a cliff somehow and dies becuase she can't feather falls, that's a risk she took. However, if she took forgotten trick and survives this fall she should be rewarded for taking the gamble in giving up ki and a rogue trick slot for forgotten trick.
Also, using a level 20 ability and saying that makes the class overpowered is a mute point. Yes it is overpowered but it does not make the class overpowered. The level 20 abilities are for flavor and not much more. By the time players get that high encounters have balance issues themselves.
As far as vanishing trick meaning a ninja doesn't have to invest in the stealth skill, that's not accurate. The +20 to stealth effectively becomes +10 when a ninja moves at full speed. Of course fast stealth trick negates this but a ninja who invests in two tricks simply to become good at stealth should be darn good at stealth.
The developers repeatedly state that their idea of a ninja is an infiltrator so I'll use that as their "niche". There are typically three types of infiltration: talk, stealth, and fight. To augment talking their way through, they have tricks for disguise and such. To augment stealthing their way through, they have vanishing act and fast stealth. Combat should be a last resort for the infiltrating ninja.
Now at lower levels stealthing can be really hard. A ninja who wants to stealth his way through is going to have just as rough time as the rogue. However, the rogue's niche is traps while the ninja's is infiltration. With vanishing trick he gets an edge that will drastically improve his stealth capabilities at low levels. As the levels get higher, more creatures have ways around invisibility. Any target worth assassinating by a ninja will surely have ways to counter invisibility or else any old wizard could just saunter right past their defenses. Therefore, the ninja goes back to using stealth.
I have not seen much complaints about the level 20 feature. I for sure have none.
Who said the ninja should move at full speed? And sure, I would not say that it would replace stealth. It would be a better option than stealth on a lot of occasions though.
As to the idea of the class, I do not object to it at all. I like the vanishing trick. I like almost all ninja abilities, because I like the concept of the class. That has nothing to do with balance though. And bear in mind - this is an alternative class to the rogue, not a new base class, and thus I believe that those two should be very well balanced with respect to eachother.
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Ok, I see more from where you're comming from. In terms of balancing with the rogue would you check out the Armored ninja thread? IMHO armor restrictions could make the rogue have more options and help balance.
Also, the rogue is the only character class that can disarm magical traps and open magical locks. That's very powerful as most classes can have their skill niche's crossed (tracking ranger and tracking infiltrator). This has been mentioned before, but combat oriented rogues get more skills as a ninja who wants to be effective in combat must sacrifice intelligence.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You mean besides beat it into archtype shape and get rid of this 'alternate class' nonsense? :-)
Ok, my thoughts on reading.
Role, Alignment, Hit Dice: All fine.
Class skills, Dump Diplomacy and Perform. Diplomacy because the 'sterotypical' ninja clan is isolationist and Perform for the same reason. There's also a gameplay reason, if the ninja (class) is trying to pretend to be a performer or a courtier to get close to the target, the slight imparment compared to an expert or Aristocrat should make it a tip off. Six + Int skill points per level, to balance the ki pool.
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor prof: Keep as same. I know people freak out at katana but specify the katana is martial only (while we're using the bastard sword, since we don't know what the final katna looks like. (no, it's not an 85 ton battlemech.) Again, the ninja can take the feat to blend in, or the PCs might key into the samurai who can't use it one handed.
Poison Use replaces trapfinding,
Sneak Attack fine.
Ki Pool: By itself is fine. Losing skill points will balance it out.
'Ninja tricks' Become rogue tricks, Rogues can take the ki tricks, but can't normally fuel them (see below).
No Trace: Is fine, replaces Trapsense.
Voila, now a short archtype.
As to the Ki Pool..
Ki Pool
You have a pool of supernatural energy to draw on.
Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 10+, cannot already have a ki pool.
Benefit You gain a ki pool and 1 + Wis or Cha modifier ki. You may use this to fuel rogue talents that require ki. The ability linked to the ki pool must be picked when taking the feat and cannot be changed.
Special If you gain levels in a class with a ki pool, you lose this feat and replace it with Extra Ki instead.
Deeper Ki Pool
Prerequisite: Must have a Ki Pool.
Benefit You gain two additional Ki points
Special You may take this feat multiple times, its effects stack.
Ninja 'Clans' now become like Thieves Guilds; they have wizards, sorcerers, bards etc that are part of the clan, but don't have the ninja class.
Edit: Fixed formatting. Also I noticed for a group convinced they don't want point based psionics, ki points really mimic psionic focus.
There is not much I would do the the ninja, just some minor tweaks. I would:
Change the name of Shadow Clones to Shadow Decoys. Ninja's are not geneticists.
Reduce Vanishing trick's duration to 1 round. Too much duration takes away from the need to have a good stealth skill. 1 round should be enough to get a sneak attack or run for cover. Invisible Blades might include the extended duration, or the rounds/level duration could be a feat.
Light step and Acrobatic Master trick should have armor restrictions.
I might review the rogue talent trick. There have got be rogue talents that make no sense for the ninja, if not now perhaps in the future. Rather it might make sense to just import the ones that do make sense and add them like fast stealth, combat trick, etc.
You mean besides beat it into archtype shape and get rid of this 'alternate class' nonsense? :-)
Ok, my thoughts on reading.
** spoiler omitted **Voila, now a short archtype.
As to the Ki Pool..
Ki Pool
You have a pool of supernatural energy to draw on.
Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 10+, cannot already have a ki pool.
Benefit You gain a ki pool and 1 + Wis or Cha modifier ki. You may use this to fuel rogue talents that require ki. The ability linked to the ki pool must be picked when taking the feat and cannot be changed.
Special If you gain levels in a class with a ki pool, you lose this feat and replace it with Extra Ki instead.Deeper Ki Pool
Prerequisite: Must have a Ki Pool.
Benefit You gain two additional Ki points
Special You may take this feat multiple times, its effects...
So... it becomes just another feat tax?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So... it becomes just another feat tax?
Nope. You missed that my ninja archtype gets a ki pool for a loss of skill points and a couple skills.
The non-ninja archtypes can access rogue tricks that require ki if they burn the feat. They're not as good at it as the archtype, but they're not shut out.
Also note a lot of the ki burning 'ninja tricks' get one free use already. If you remove fueling with ki, feather fall simply becomes major magic
There is not much I would do the the ninja, just some minor tweaks. I would:
Change the name of Shadow Clones to Shadow Decoys. Ninja's are not geneticists.
Reduce Vanishing trick's duration to 1 round. Too much duration takes away from the need to have a good stealth skill. 1 round should be enough to get a sneak attack or run for cover. Invisible Blades might include the extended duration, or the rounds/level duration could be a feat.
Light step and Acrobatic Master trick should have armor restrictions.
I might review the rogue talent trick. There have got be rogue talents that make no sense for the ninja, if not now perhaps in the future. Rather it might make sense to just import the ones that do make sense and add them like fast stealth, combat trick, etc.
This is pretty much my thoughts. The ninja gets to much scorn for being based off a weaker class. lets strengthen the rogue not weaken the ninja, the ninja seems quite balanced too me.
Except vanish, maybe not 1 round per level but it should be more then just one round, 60ft of movement isnt enough to get away in too many circumstances, maybe 1 round per two levels?
You mean besides beat it into archtype shape and get rid of this 'alternate class' nonsense? :-)
Ok, my thoughts on reading.
** spoiler omitted **Voila, now a short archtype.
As to the Ki Pool..
Ki Pool
You have a pool of supernatural energy to draw on.
Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 10+, cannot already have a ki pool.
Benefit You gain a ki pool and 1 + Wis or Cha modifier ki. You may use this to fuel rogue talents that require ki. The ability linked to the ki pool must be picked when taking the feat and cannot be changed.
Special If you gain levels in a class with a ki pool, you lose this feat and replace it with Extra Ki instead.Deeper Ki Pool
Prerequisite: Must have a Ki Pool.
Benefit You gain two additional Ki points
Special You may take this feat multiple times, its effects...
+1
The Ki feats remind me of how the Psionic feats could add Psi things to non-Psionic classes. Many of which by golly would have fit Ninja things very well.
You mean besides beat it into archtype shape and get rid of this 'alternate class' nonsense? :-)
Ok, my thoughts on reading.
** spoiler omitted **Voila, now a short archtype.
As to the Ki Pool..
Ki Pool
You have a pool of supernatural energy to draw on.
Prerequisite: Wisdom or Charisma 10+, cannot already have a ki pool.
Benefit You gain a ki pool and 1 + Wis or Cha modifier ki. You may use this to fuel rogue talents that require ki. The ability linked to the ki pool must be picked when taking the feat and cannot be changed.
Special If you gain levels in a class with a ki pool, you lose this feat and replace it with Extra Ki instead.Deeper Ki Pool
Prerequisite: Must have a Ki Pool.
Benefit You gain two additional Ki points
Special You may take this feat multiple times, its effects...
sorry if this was addressed
so let me get this straight ninjas cant gather information..............ooookkkkkkk
I for one would prefer the ninja be a series of archetypes that expands over most if not all classes. I would especially like to see multiclass archetypes for ninja.
However, if there needs to be a ninja class then here's what I would like to see.
Ki based off of Wis or Cha: you choose when you first gain ki. This maintains flexibility between players that want a faceman type infiltrator vs a real ultimate combatant.
Drop sneak attack and give them assassinate: SA is already the rogues niche, let the ninja stand on it's own. Remember the cavaliers playtest ability? Challenge used extra dice, it didn't work with charge attacks, but was great with twoweapon fighting. This is were the ninja needs to go. Plus you can add abilities that work only against an assassination target. This falls more in line with classic ninja movies where someone is marked for death by a clan and people have to protect them. Of course the ninja player should be able to choose their targets (maybe after a round of observation, or make it a will save for the ninja to get into the targets head so they can better fight them).
Ultimately I'm just tossing out ideas, but I want the ninja to stand on it's own as opposed to being a rogue redux.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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sorry if this was addressed
so let me get this straight ninjas cant gather information..............ooookkkkkkk
*Double checks post*
Funny how you read 'can never ever take any points in a non-cross class skill' I don't recall putting it in there.
In fact...
Dump Diplomacy and Perform. Diplomacy because the 'sterotypical' ninja clan is isolationist and Perform for the same reason. There's also a gameplay reason, if the ninja (class) is trying to pretend to be a performer or a courtier to get close to the target, the slight imparment compared to an expert or Aristocrat should make it a tip off. Six + Int skill points per level, to balance the ki pool.
(Emphasis added)
In fact, if you're building a ninja as an infiltrator you're still at least two skill points ahead of the aristocrat NPC, before comparing the 'I'm a PC' levels of stats and gold. Your charisma will be comprable, and you have as many skill points as a bard.
Also note this in my post:
Ninja 'Clans' now become like Thieves Guilds; they have wizards, sorcerers, bards etc that are part of the clan, but don't have the ninja class.
It's not the rogue cat burgler who shakes people down on the street, it's the rogue with a few levels of warrior/fighter (or a thug archtype) it's not a rogue who makes the magical lockpicks that add +5 to diasble device, it's the less than ethical wizard who pays for his guild membership/protection in items. It's not the ninja with maxed out bluff, stealth, perception, disable device and climb who scouts out the contessa. It's the one who takes the cross class skills, or the bard that's part of the clan.
And I think that's part of the stereotype that's missing, the clan Just as Guild members have specialties, just as adventuring parties have specialties, so do ninja clan members.
My archtype allows for a PC to specialize in those fields, via skill selection and feats. It also is designed for NPC use, the lower DCs, the katana proficiency both being tip offs for the astute that something 'isn't right'.
- Make Tricks Rogue talents and the ones dependent on ki once per day talents that rogues can use. No reason for a wall. Creates confusion, work, and flame wars to divide a class among itself over who gets what. Give them to both.
- Make Ki pool remove the extra attack clause (leave in the shuriken one as a talent though) and re-use once per day talents with a ki point
- remove light steps entirely as a class ability. Make it a talent selectable by all rogues at level 6. It completely overrides trapfinding to uselessness while also giving great other benefits.
Remove the talent trick wall (which is apparently there for no other reason than to restrict rogues from getting them which doesn't even make sense since this is an archetype. And before you fan boys jump on me for calling it an archetype, Jason said these are archetypes but bigger, therefore they dont deserve better talents just for them)
Do that and its not so bad, but i would say that some combo's with the monk can get down right ridiculous (such as the ghost monk that steals ki)
I'll say it once again, the Ninja is fine. Compared to a Wizard, it is laughable at the higher levels. But since Jason already said that they don't want to buff the Rogue, I guess it's going to be nerfed. Well, at least the player who is interested in playing one in my upcoming Kingmaker campaign will be happy to know that he can use the playtest version.
I'll say it once again, the Ninja is fine. Compared to a Wizard, it is laughable at the higher levels. But since Jason already said that they don't want to buff the Rogue, I guess it's going to be nerfed. Well, at least the player who is interested in playing one in my upcoming Kingmaker campaign will be happy to know that he can use the playtest version.
better rogue talents will solve the problem hopefully.
Reduce the ki pool just slightly that is all most are asking. The extra attack is simply not necessary, the re use once per day talents thing for ki would solve everything.
Main problems are with tricks and talents being divided for most and that tricks right now are significantly better.