Ok, I have tried playing with the Pathfinder Grapple rules for sometime, and each time it comes into play I just find it harder and harder to bother with it. I'm considering going back to WotC's version.
One thing that's bothering me is the character that is grappling is MORE limited than the one being grappled.
The grappler, in order to maintain the grapple, MUST use a Standard Action to maintain grapple. In addition, it can choose to Move, make ONE attack, pin, or tie up.
The one being grappled, however, can choose to make FULL ATTACKS, albeit at a -2 penalty against his attacker or anyone else within reach!?!?
This puts a damper on anyone bothering to grapple enemies with multiple attacks. Is there any way the one grappling can make a full attack on the one they're grappling? I don't understand how the most attacks the grappler can make is one, or two with Greater Grapple.
If I'm an illithid with one tentacle wrapped on your head, I should be able to slap you around with the remaining 3 while still holding you! Or say I am a tiger that has you in a grip, I should be able to rake with all my claws while my mouth is clamped on your throat! If the grappler makes any such move, they're forced to let go of the grapple.
Grappling can be effective but you have to set up a PC to grapple. Early on PCs don't do much damage but they maybe able to shut down a dangerous enemy by pinning them(and keeping them pinned). I have an monk 1/druid 9 PC and as a Huge snake with greater grapple he wraps up one guy and really puts down the hurt with 2 bites and 2 constricts. Going against a colossal (or 2 size larger) creature does make a grappler not so effective.
It's a heavy investment, though, and for two bites. The snake has one attack, that makes sense. Plus, the snake has the benefit of constrict. Some monsters don't.
But my problem is I just find it hard to believe that if a multi-limbed creature has a hold of you, they can't unleash a host of attacks while still holding you. Because according to the Pathfinder grapple rules, they simply can't unless they let go of you.
At least the WotC grappling allowed for enemies to full attack one another while being grappled.
The one being grappled, however, can choose to make FULL ATTACKS, albeit at a -2 penalty against his attacker or anyone else within reach!?!?
Try this at home. Give your buddy a knife. Now, grab him and try to keep him from moving.
Unless you've put him into some sort of pin, chances are he'll be able to stab you in the back multiple times while you're giving him a bear hug.
If you want to be sure about it, disarm the guy first and then pin him. Also, grappling things with claws is probably not a great idea.
If I'm an illithid with one tentacle wrapped on your head, I should be able to slap you around with the remaining 3 while still holding you! Or say I am a tiger that has you in a grip, I should be able to rake with all my claws while my mouth is clamped on your throat! If the grappler makes any such move, they're forced to let go of the grapple.
Your tiger does get free rake attacks while grappling, in addition to the claw or bite damage it gets from maintaining the grapple. If you don't mind changing the tiger's feats, Greater Grapple would allow you two chances to deal your damage with a move action, two free claw attacks from rake, and a standard action remaining for you to make your bite with. That's four claws and a bite.
As for the mind flayer, I haven't seen them converted yet. I imagine they would have some extra rules added, like the Kraken's Tenacious Grapple. (Granted, Tenacious Grapple itself isn't the ability the flayer would need, but you get the idea. Special monsters get special attacks.)
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Well depends upon WHAT happens in the grapple.
The grappled player can make a Full-Attack, as long as it is one handed, and if using a weapon it must be a light or one-handed weapon. The grappled also has a -2 to all attacks.
The grappler does not get a Full-Attack because he must use a Standard Action to maintain the grapple. Which makes sense. So, he gets to make two attacks in essence, one a grapple and the other a regular attack.
The BIG advantage of grappling is the PIN.
The grappled player is unable to move and has a VERY limited option for actions. He can try to break the pin, or he can use mental or verbal actions. No attack options allowed other than trying to break the pin.
So combat is likely to work along this way, as an example:
Krome initiates a grapple against Razz. Krome has Improved Grapple and wins the Grapple. Both Krome and Razz have the Grappled condition now. Krome goes ahead and uses his dagger to put some hurt on Razz, and deals a few points of damage.
Razz retaliates. Instead of trying to break the grapple he instead decides to go with a Full-Attack. He gets four really good shots in on Krome with his dagger and draws some blood and puts some major pain in Krome's side.
The next round, Krome manages to maintain the grapple and goes for the pin. He succeeds and now Razz is left cussing and wiggling.
Razz attempts to break the pin but is unable to. He cusses and wiggles.
The third round Krome maintains the pin, then takes that shiny dagger and stabs Razz.
Until Razz finds a way out of the pin, he will suffer dagger stabs until he dies.
So while Krome took some nasty at the first of the combat, in the end, Razz will be defeated.
Obviously this is just one example of how the grappling can go. But the thing is that using the Pathfinder method, the mechanics of the grapple is much easier than the 3.5 version. And ultimately what can be achieved in either grapple is about the same.
The 3.5 version allows ONLY attacks that are light, natural or unarmed. So you can't use one-handed weapons to attack with. Both parties also suffer a -4 to attacks instead of -2. Regardless there is very little actually different between the two as far as what you can do. A 3.5 rules lawyer might say you cannot do a full attack if grappled because it says you can make AN attack, not attackS. That interpretation is open to some debate, but it could be made.
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The one being grappled, however, can choose to make FULL ATTACKS, albeit at a -2 penalty against his attacker or anyone else within reach!?!?
Try this at home. Give your buddy a knife. Now, grab him and try to keep him from moving.
Unless you've put him into some sort of pin, chances are he'll be able to stab you in the back multiple times while you're giving him a bear hug.
If you want to be sure about it, disarm the guy first and then pin him. Also, grappling things with claws is probably not a great idea.
If I'm an illithid with one tentacle wrapped on your head, I should be able to slap you around with the remaining 3 while still holding you! Or say I am a tiger that has you in a grip, I should be able to rake with all my claws while my mouth is clamped on your throat! If the grappler makes any such move, they're forced to let go of the grapple.
Your tiger does get free rake attacks while grappling, in addition to the claw or bite damage it gets from maintaining the grapple. If you don't mind changing the tiger's feats, Greater Grapple would allow you two chances to deal your damage with a move action, two free claw attacks from rake, and a standard action remaining for you to make your bite with. That's four claws and a bite.
As for the mind flayer, I haven't seen them converted yet. I imagine they would have some extra rules added, like the Kraken's Tenacious Grapple. (Granted, Tenacious Grapple itself isn't the ability the flayer would need, but you get the idea. Special monsters get special attacks.)
There will never be an OFFICIAL conversion of the Mind Flayer, so anything ever converted will be 100% fan created. So, in essence it can do whatever you want it to. BUT there doesn't need to be any real change for a Mind Flayer to work in the circumstances described above.
Example:
Mind Flayer attempts to grapple Krome. The Mind Flayer wins the grapple and as part of its Improved Grab ability gets to make another grapple check for free. It succeeds and therefore gets the rest of its tentacles wrapped on Krome's head. It can still take an action to apply some damage for giggles and grins if it wants.
On Krome's turn he doesn't attempt to break the grapple. Instead he goes to a Full-Attack using his longsword (an option not available in 3.5). He does lots of damage and hopes to kill that Mind Flayer in one round but fails.
The next round the MInd Flayer rips Krome's head open, killing him instantly. Unfortunately there is very little brain and it is all rotten anyway so he turns to Razz, wiggles his tentacles and smiles. :)
AFAIK, grappling has different measures of interest depending on the target and your feats selection.
You can use a not-improved grapple maneuver as a desperate measure to limit a spellcaster's ability to cast (and move).
You can use Improved Grapple to "disarm" a ranged or two-handed combatant.
You can use Greater Grapple to disable any combatant quickly.
The goal is to grapple them, then pin them. That's two rolls in order for them to stop attacking.
Using Greater Grapple from an adjacent space, you could do it in one round (standard action to establish the grapple, and move to pin).
If you don't have Greater Grapple, or if you move before grappling, the second check will be on your next round, exposing you to a couple attacks from your target.
However, if said target has been using a two-handed weapon (either melee or ranged), they'd have to drop it and draw another.
Unless they have Quick Draw, drawing a weapon is a move action, and they wouldn't be able to full-attack you.
After pinning them, you can tie them up. That's only one more roll. Once tied up, unleash your own full-attacks.
I had this situation come up last night. I had a player be grappled by an enemy. This enemy had problems getting through his AC and was suffering a -4 attack penalty thanks to Greater Luminous Armor spell. So I had the enemy begin grappling.
This didn't make things more challenging at all. The player chose to not break out (giving the enemy another +5 bonus to future grapple checks), but it didn't matter since he was easily pounding into the enemy via full attacks (he has 3 attacks) with his spiked gauntlet (and he pulled off a concentration check to cast a spell, Bladeweave, on the gauntlet as a swift action).
Meanwhile, an enemy that was capable of raging (it had Barbarian levels) and unleashing 4 attacks per round as a full attack due to having rearclaws and flying (it was a Dragonkin), and dishing out good damage was reduced to one CMB check per turn and dealing only one claw damage (nevermind the fact that, while holding the player by the neck, he should EASILY let loose both claws and also its rearclaws but yet it can only make ONE claw? It doesn't make sense at all).
I think I may change the maintaining a grapple as a FREE action, and then one can simply perform a Standard or Full-Round action as they please.
If I grab you with 2 hands, and happen to have 6 tentacles as well, I should be able to slap you around with my tentacles while still holding you. The rules don't let me, instead, they favor the one being grappled.
This didn't make things more challenging at all. The player chose to not break out (giving the enemy another +5 bonus to future grapple checks), but it didn't matter since he was easily pounding into the enemy via full attacks (he has 3 attacks) with his spiked gauntlet (and he pulled off a concentration check to cast a spell, Bladeweave, on the gauntlet as a swift action).
What happened a round later when he was pinned? Or, why didn't that happen?
Grappling isn't a clear winner of a tactic against someone who's a pretty effective fighter with a light or one-handed weapon; I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. There's lots of reasons a two-handed-weapon focused character will shine over other melee options; I don't think it's the end of the world if one of one-hand-weapon guy's alternate strengths is that he isn't that awesome to grapple until he gets pinned.
OK Razz, so the PC got in a Full Attack. Did that kill the monster?
If the monster wasn´t going to kill the PC with it´s own Full Attack,
it seems like it would still die from the PC´s Full Attack anyways.
Was the PC already using Spiked Gauntlets, or were they using a different weapon previous to being Grappled (e.g. a 2 Handed weapon) which may have done more damage/ been more effective than Spiked Gauntlets?
If it didn´t kill the monster, then the Dragonkin presumably tried to Pin the PC with it´s maintain, right?
Did that succeed? If so, the PC wasn´t really doing much on their next turn, right?
Even if they succeed to break the Pin (this is where the RAW isn´t clear tome, if breaking it just goes back to Grappled, or is completely free), they have likewise done not very much with their turn, right? Only Casters with Verbal-only spells have any option besides breaking free, and they still have to make a Concentration check to do so.
Your post wasn´t clear if you used ´normal´ Grapple, or if your monster had access to Grab...
In which case, the monster can full attack each round (not maintaining, relying on Grab to re-establish Grapple), while the PC suffers the restrictions of Grapple, shutting down 2-handed weapon use amongst several other restrictions and penalties.
But yeah, if you can´t withstand 1 round of 1-handed FulL Attack at attack penalty, you probably don´t want to Grapple normally unless you have Greater Grapple and can use both in the 1st round.
Razz just to clarify, where does it say that the grappled character gets a full round action it just says action IE one singular attack?. And from my reading of the paragraph there is nothing that says you dont have to make the CMD check before you make the attack. Granted there is nothing that says you do have to make it either. But if it followed a no CMD check required mechanic then it shoud be in a seperate paragraph for editing purposes of new editions to avoid this confusion. Can someone point me towards the eratta or posts that show you can take a full attack while grappled?
A grappler wants their target both 'pinned' and 'prone'.
Thats going to really ruin the grappled players day.
Its quite an effective system, especially for a big cat.
Razz just to clarify, where does it say that the grappled character gets a full round action it just says action IE one singular attack?. And from my reading of the paragraph there is nothing that says you dont have to make the CMD check before you make the attack. Granted there is nothing that says you do have to make it either. But if it followed a no CMD check required mechanic then it shoud be in a seperate paragraph for editing purposes of new editions to avoid this confusion. Can someone point me towards the eratta or posts that show you can take a full attack while grappled?
If nothing says you can´t take a Full Round Action, you can take one.
I would not go around inventing requirements to make a CMD check before taking actions, for the above reasons, and that this use of making a CMB check is mentioned nowhere in the CMB or Grapple rules. The only thing affecting the actions of the Grapple target is the Grappled condition, which spells out it´s effects... Nothing else. The wording in Pin is the problematic part, if read literally - in that case the RAI is clearly for you to be limited to only the actions it mentions.
Razz just to clarify, where does it say that the grappled character gets a full round action it just says action IE one singular attack?. And from my reading of the paragraph there is nothing that says you dont have to make the CMD check before you make the attack. Granted there is nothing that says you do have to make it either. But if it followed a no CMD check required mechanic then it shoud be in a seperate paragraph for editing purposes of new editions to avoid this confusion. Can someone point me towards the eratta or posts that show you can take a full attack while grappled?Post by Jason Bulmahn
Ill go with that even though it does seem to contradict some of the clarifications post Jason et al have made about the word "action" in rules text.
quandary I am not inventing requirements:
just interpreting this paragraph:
If You Are Grappled
If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
A grappler wants their target both 'pinned' and 'prone'.
Thats going to really ruin the grappled players day.
Its quite an effective system, especially for a big cat.
...Uh... Sure, but Grapple doesn´t make anybody Prone, so you´re going to have to make a separete Trip attack to do so...
Grab, Trip ability Natural Attacks, and Rake are a very effective combo.
Ill go with that even though it does seem to contradict some of the clarifications post Jason et al have made about the word "action" in rules text.
Try checking out where the details of melee, ranged, unarmed, and crits are detailed in... hint: ´the attack action´. 8-)
The point is you really need to get them prone.
Frankly I'd try get a Trip in before I went for a Grapple check... they are now trying to fight you at -6 to hit if they are grappled and Prone. If you can then lock in the pin they are stuffed.
The point is you really need to get them prone.
Frankly I'd try get a Trip in before I went for a Grapple check... they are now trying to fight you at -6 to hit if they are grappled and Prone. If you can then lock in the pin they are stuffed.
Indeed!
So make your initial attacks trip attempts (two claws) and then shoot for a Grab/Bite. Cats are excellent!
quandary I am not inventing requirements:
just interpreting this paragraph:
...Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take ANY ACTION that requires only one hand to perform, SUCH AS cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.
OK, here´s what´s confusing you: (I put important parts in CAPS)
Besides that it re-enforces that you can take any action, notice the ´such as´: that isn´t an exhaustive list, it´s just examples, therefore only the 1-handed limitation is important. You can also draw and administer a Potion to your self, even though it isn´t on that list, because it only needs 1 hand to do so. Likewise for 1-handed FulL Attacks.
The Grappled Rules (Combat Chapter) just say you ´can´ do certain things, but doesn´t say you CAN´T do other things (besides re-iterating the no-2-hands limitation layed out in the Condition). In other words, it´s just mentioning the options for Reversing/Escaping since this is a good place to mention them, while still acknowledging you can take other actions.
Note that the biggest problem here (probably bigger than even Pin´s faulty wording when read literally) is that NEITHER Grapple rules in Combat Chapter NOR the Grappled/Pinned Conditions in Glossary bother to mention the HUGELY important limitation on spellcasting, EVEN THOUGH they bother to mention Concentration checks for casting:
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Sorry if my responces seem anal or whatever, it´s just that there are such serious issues with the rules that NEED Errata, that it´s frustrating to see the RAW is mis-represented in cases where it /does/ work fine.
Sure, the dragonkin could've placed a pin easily on the PC afterwards (no he did not have Grab special attack). It just seems like an awful lot for very little, in my opinion. Unless you had multiple enemies grappling. (I didn't have it continue to Pin the player, though, he had Heart of Water in effect and could've expended it to gain Freedom of Movement at any time, I was surprised he hadn't done so originally).
I just hope Pathfinder releases a feat of some sort to aid grapplers more. As in a feat to possibly maintain grappling as a free action so it could choose to make normal attacks on their opponent. Again, this was a dragonkin not adept at grappling attempting this. Enemies with the Grapple feats and/or the Grab ability probably would fare better than expected.
I still don't agree with an enemy with multiple limbs not being able to use all of them to just make attacks on the one their grappling.
Sure, the dragonkin could've placed a pin easily on the PC afterwards (no he did not have Grab special attack). It just seems like an awful lot for very little, in my opinion.
Really?
So you consider the position of the Grappled (Pinned & Prone) opponent basically being nailed to the floor and at -6 (or worse if he is a finesse fighter) on the attacks he can make (one handed, light weapon only) and closing down 2handed/2weapon style types and to some great extent 'casters' as being 'very little'?
They are also now dead easy to keep hitting, for those so inclined, and could well be raked as well.
Thats pretty good.
How much better did you want it?
OK, so the Grappling COULD have been extremely effective and the character shut down 100%, except you meta-gamed on the 2nd round AFTER wasting the 1st round, given your knowledge the PC could use a Freedom of Movement effect. Sure, anybody who knows the target has a Freedom of Movement ability isn´t going to bother with Grappling, anymore than you´re going to try sound-based abilities against a known deaf target, or Sunder against a target with only Natural Weapons and Su abilities.
But yeah, you kind of do need the Improved Maneuver Feats or special abilities to be successful at just about any Maneuver in PRPG, that´s just how it works... Only exception being Reach or Reach Weapons (or Ranged) so they can´t make an AoO in retaliation. Or when they are Flat-Footed. Eating an AoO sucks, taking the damage as an attack penalty to the maneuver sucks even more.
If you want to buff Grappling and Maneuvers in general, I would consider removing that aspect... though you might want to either buff up the benefit of the Imp Maneuver Feats to compensate, or reduce their pre-req´s (e.g. Imp Unarmed, Combat Expertise, etc).
Sure, the dragonkin could've placed a pin easily on the PC afterwards (no he did not have Grab special attack). It just seems like an awful lot for very little, in my opinion. Unless you had multiple enemies grappling. (I didn't have it continue to Pin the player, though, he had Heart of Water in effect and could've expended it to gain Freedom of Movement at any time, I was surprised he hadn't done so originally).
I just hope Pathfinder releases a feat of some sort to aid grapplers more. As in a feat to possibly maintain grappling as a free action so it could choose to make normal attacks on their opponent. Again, this was a dragonkin not adept at grappling attempting this. Enemies with the Grapple feats and/or the Grab ability probably would fare better than expected.
I still don't agree with an enemy with multiple limbs not being able to use all of them to just make attacks on the one their grappling.
Being pinned makes you flatfooted. That means the bad guys buddies pile on the PC. If the grappler is alone it may be better to not grapple. Grapple like any other tactics is only useful when done at the right time.
to those who think a grappler should get his full attacks while initiating a grapple have never been in a trained fight or trained in martial arts. initiating a grapple is NOT a pin, it's the first phase of it. it's the deflecting of a blow and gaining a hand just right on the wrist, grabbing an ankle, or a hand on the waste. the next action is to take control and turn it into a pin, twisting the arm behind the back, twisting his leg and getting an ankle lock, or putting him to the floor and putting him into a hold. It's 2 actions and it takes a LOT of focus and attention to do right while in a fight, not get distracted, or leaving yourself open and getting reversed easily. And thats in a scenerio where the guy im fighting isn't try to kill me! I'm not a black belt but i could probably get in a few punches and kicks in before following through into the pin , ie my full attacks, but it is a stupid move. it leaves you open, wastes time, and takes away from the whole point of a grapple-to take control through grappling. the only case i would probably take a shot in mid grapple would be if i was unsuccessful, messed up, or he managed to resist and i wanted to distract him or cause him to flinch letting loose his tension. You attack after you have control, ie pinned. I think pathfinder did a pretty good realistic take on grappling, since in my case i would have improved grapple. so in summary it's not that it's realistically impossible to make a full attack while initiating a grapple it's just that you wouldn't want to and defeats the hole point OF a grapple in the first place. if your going for a pin you have to grapple. if you want to attack, then don't initiate a pin.
from a purely game point of view there is more to it, as in RL, than simply holding his hand like he's your girlfriend and flailing him. like i stated above it takes a LOT of concentration and effort to initiate a grapple and go for a pin. Since it takes effort and concentration THATS why you can't full attack. can you move and full attack, or drink a potion and full attack, or activate a magical item and full atack? no, because they all take effort and time, just like a grapple. I would even say from my experience that grappling takes MORE effort and time than those. If your going to let players make full attacks while grappling then it would be no different than allowing a PC to cast a spell and attack as well...
nice post Rune, but even that missed a step.
A Grapple is simply getting a hold of the guy.
A Pin is getting a good hold, like a limb lock/headlock/bear hold etc.
Grappled and Pinned are conditions you can be in whilst still both being upright.
Whats missing is the trip needed as well, to get the guy prone.
A tripped and grappled opponent is in trouble... once the pin goes in he is doomed.
Frankly I agree, a grapple and a full attack is pretty crazy, and way over the top.
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I had this situation come up last night. I had a player be grappled by an enemy. This enemy had problems getting through his AC and was suffering a -4 attack penalty thanks to Greater Luminous Armor spell. So I had the enemy begin grappling.
This didn't make things more challenging at all. The player chose to not break out (giving the enemy another +5 bonus to future grapple checks), but it didn't matter since he was easily pounding into the enemy via full attacks (he has 3 attacks) with his spiked gauntlet (and he pulled off a concentration check to cast a spell, Bladeweave, on the gauntlet as a swift action).
Meanwhile, an enemy that was capable of raging (it had Barbarian levels) and unleashing 4 attacks per round as a full attack due to having rearclaws and flying (it was a Dragonkin), and dishing out good damage was reduced to one CMB check per turn and dealing only one claw damage (nevermind the fact that, while holding the player by the neck, he should EASILY let loose both claws and also its rearclaws but yet it can only make ONE claw? It doesn't make sense at all).
I think I may change the maintaining a grapple as a FREE action, and then one can simply perform a Standard or Full-Round action as they please.
If I grab you with 2 hands, and happen to have 6 tentacles as well, I should be able to slap you around with my tentacles while still holding you. The rules don't let me, instead, they favor the one being grappled.
So to be sure then, the grapple only lasted one round? Maybe two at most? By round three the one being grappled is completely hosed.
I just don't let people in grapples take full attacks.
It turns something that should be dangerous (a dragon picking you up in his mouth and flying away) into a joke (because you just pummel him into unconsciousness before he gets off the ground) instead of the threat it should be.
It also makes grapplers suck. Way suck. There's no incentive to grapple besides hoping you can pin them, and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintain, so you're never going to pin any equally skilled combatants.
Just feels goofy.
and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintain
I missed that rule -- can you point me in the right direction?
Every time I think I have PF Grappling right I find something I missed.
The one being grappled, however, can choose to make FULL ATTACKS, albeit at a -2 penalty against his attacker or anyone else within reach!?!?
Try this at home. Give your buddy a knife. Now, grab him and try to keep him from moving.
Unless you've put him into some sort of pin, chances are he'll be able to stab you in the back multiple times while you're giving him a bear hug.
If you want to be sure about it, disarm the guy first and then pin him. Also, grappling things with claws is probably not a great idea.
I used to feel this way until I started doing some martial arts and noticed the strengths and weaknesses of grappling somebody/being grappled. I like what Paizo/Pathfinder did, but if you're looking for complete realism, you're going to have to keep tinkering the system. Actually, I found that the 3.x version of it was surprisingly realistic if tedious, although it has been some time since I have used it or even been grappled(started doing classes again for the new year).
Krome initiates a grapple against Razz. Krome has Improved Grapple and wins the Grapple. Both Krome and Razz have the Grappled condition now. Krome goes ahead and uses his dagger to put some hurt on Razz, and deals a few points of damage.
How is Krome doing this when he's already spent a standard action initiating the grapple? I thought the "attack as part of a grapple" only applied when MAINTAINING a grapple, not when initiating it.
Razz retaliates. Instead of trying to break the grapple he instead decides to go with a Full-Attack. He gets four really good shots in on Krome with his dagger and draws some blood and puts some major pain in Krome's side.
The next round, Krome manages to maintain the grapple and goes for the pin. He succeeds and now Razz is left cussing and wiggling.
Razz attempts to break the pin but is unable to. He cusses and wiggles.
The third round Krome maintains the pin, then takes that shiny dagger and stabs Razz.
Until Razz finds a way out of the pin, he will suffer dagger stabs until he dies.
Maybe. Maybe not. Razz gets two chances each round to loosen Krome's hold on him does he not? Razz can either make his check on his turn, or hope Krome botches his check on his respective turn. Either way will put him back to the grappled condition, makign him a little but closer to freedom (at this point he's still getting two chances to escape each round).
So while Krome took some nasty at the first of the combat, in the end, Razz will be defeated.
Unless Krome is clearly superior in the grapple, you may want to add a big "maybe" in their somewhere.
If a creature has grab, they have the option of taking a -20 on their checks to act as if they are not involved in the grapple. So, basically the illithid takes the -20, and runs around hitting with all its tentacles grabbing and dragging anyone who he passes his grab check on. This is what makes grab dangerous.
Good luck hitting or dragging anyone else when it is still using its standard actions to maintain its hold on the first guy.
I've been told my a great many people on these boards a great many times that the -20 option does not allow you to forego the "maintain" action.
The goal is to grapple them, then pin them. That's two rolls in order for them to stop attacking.
Using Greater Grapple from an adjacent space, you could do it in one round (standard action to establish the grapple, and move to pin).
ThoughI disagree with it, I've heard it said that you cannot do this, as you can only upgrade to a pin as part of the "maintain action" which you can only do once per round. If you've already established a grapple or used your maintain action this round, you cannot do it again. In other words, even though you can grapple as a move action, you can still only make one grapple maneuver each round (freeing you up to make a standarda ction attack, a move, or some other action in the same round as making the grapple.
However, if said target has been using a two-handed weapon (either melee or ranged), they'd have to drop it and draw another.
There is nothing in the grapple rules saying they have to drop anything if they don't choose to. He could easily hold the greatsword in one hand and use a smaller weapon in the other hand to attack. Even if you belive this breaks the "any action that can be done with one hand clause" (which it very well might) he can still resort to armor spikes, blade boots, spiked gauntlets, or similar weaponry that don't require hands to wield.
Ill go with that even though it does seem to contradict some of the clarifications post Jason et al have made about the word "action" in rules text.
Oh don't get me started on their contradictory "clarifications" in regards to actions! They're a complete mess! It's one of my only real pet peeves about the Paizo developers.
It also makes grapplers suck. Way suck. There's no incentive to grapple besides hoping you can pin them, and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintain, so you're never going to pin any equally skilled combatants.
This isn't true. The only time damage makes combat maneuvers harder to pull off is when you get struck by the specific attack of opportunity that was triggered by the combat manuever. If you have one of the improved [maneuver] feats, this is something you will NEVER have to deal with when using your chosen maneuver.
Also, skilled combatents SHOULD have a good chance to escape.
Have folks been able to successfully take the -20 on CMB to not suffer the "grappled" condition while grappling? So far I haven't found an enemy (at low levels) that could come anywhere close to doing this successfully. It is oftentimes hard enough just to get (or maintain) the grapple in the first place. Granted, my game is low level up to this point, and the PC's have not fought anything bigger than Large (size wise) yet.
When do you find you can use it reliably, if at all? Just curious.
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and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintainI missed that rule -- can you point me in the right direction?
Every time I think I have PF Grappling right I find something I missed.
Yeah I'm at a loss to where you got this from? If you're hit on the AoO provoked by the maneuver you take a penalty to your CMB roll, but that's only on the initial attack and only if you don't have the Improved Manuever feats. Beyond that I don't see this penalty.
--Figure Four Leg Vrock
I just don't let people in grapples take full attacks.
It turns something that should be dangerous (a dragon picking you up in his mouth and flying away) into a joke (because you just pummel him into unconsciousness before he gets off the ground) instead of the threat it should be.
It also makes grapplers suck. Way suck. There's no incentive to grapple besides hoping you can pin them, and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintain, so you're never going to pin any equally skilled combatants.
Just feels goofy.
If someone grabs you there is nothing stopping them from punching you in the face. Once you get them in a full nelson(pin) the punches cease. The grapple is nothing more than the setup for a pin, and considering how dangerous being pinned is they wanted you to take two standard actions to get there. If you don't have the HP to withstand the onslaught(full attack) you probably should not use it.
and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintainI missed that rule -- can you point me in the right direction?
Every time I think I have PF Grappling right I find something I missed.
Yeah I'm at a loss to where you got this from? If you're hit on the AoO provoked by the maneuver you take a penalty to your CMB roll, but that's only on the initial attack and only if you don't have the Improved Manuever feats. Beyond that I don't see this penalty.
--Figure Four Leg Vrock
This is correct. I'd erroneously believed that, well, stabbing someone over and over in the heart may make it harder to grapple as it would, for instance, pull off someone's necklace or grab someone by the feet and pull them to the floor. Strangely that is incorrect.
Hm.
If someone grabs you there is nothing stopping them from punching you in the face. Once you get them in a full nelson(pin) the punches cease. The grapple is nothing more than the setup for a pin, and considering how dangerous being pinned is they wanted you to take two standard actions to get there. If you don't have the HP to withstand the onslaught(full attack) you probably should not use it.I just don't let people in grapples take full attacks.
It turns something that should be dangerous (a dragon picking you up in his mouth and flying away) into a joke (because you just pummel him into unconsciousness before he gets off the ground) instead of the threat it should be.
It also makes grapplers suck. Way suck. There's no incentive to grapple besides hoping you can pin them, and every point of damage you take during the round adds to their CMD versus the pin and the maintain, so you're never going to pin any equally skilled combatants.
Just feels goofy.
Since it is to late to edit my post. That last "it" in the previous post refers to the grapple/pin combo.
Not every enemy grapples like a martial artist in D&D. What if I had a stone giant mauler pounce on an enemy and wrestle with them. There's a ton of movement from both parties and attacks from both directions possibly.
If I grabbed someone with both my hands, tumble to the ground with them, and then start wailing, I'll get more than one hit in. If I am an experienced warrior, I should easily be able to full attack the enemy I am wrestling with. And vice versa.
I just don't understand how, for example, a colossal kraken grabs a Medium creature with one tentacle and is limited to only squeezing and attacking with that one tentacle on the target being grappled. Why can't it use the other tentacles to beat the held enemy like a pinata? Even taking the -20 to CMB won't help, because the minute it stops using its standard action to maintain, it just let go.
I just don't understand how, for example, a colossal kraken grabs a Medium creature with one tentacle and is limited to only squeezing and attacking with that one tentacle on the target being grappled. Why can't it use the other tentacles to beat the held enemy like a pinata?
Your description of ´limitations´ only apply if the Kraken chooses to follow the same sequence your standard humanoid grappler aiming to PIN a target would take.
Even taking the -20 to CMB won't help, because the minute it stops using its standard action to maintain, it just let go.
Your referencing of the -20 here is off-base: Why?
The Kraken has a specific ability giving it all the benefits of taking -20 without actually taking the penalty. The Kraken can Attack - Grab - and Move away, the target can´t Move, and can´t hit the Kraken who is out of Reach. Or if it´s not focused on 1 target, the Kraken can Full Attack everybody in Reach, Grabbing all of them, 5´ stepping as it prefers (possibly also leaving itself out of it´s targets´ Reach) - and repeat that round after round. How is that not a workable tactic for the Kraken?Yes, besides the CMB bonus that Grab gives, the Kraken doesn´t have any special action economy benefits when maintaining (necessary for Pin). Note the name of the ability that´s relevant here: ´Grab´, not ´Grab and Immobilize(Pin)´. The Kraken doesn´t need to completely Pin it´s targets to be effective. Grab, and it´s large number of attacks with already high CMB, means it´s good at grabbing things... as advertised. Assuming that being good at grabbing things must also require that it be good at pinning things is your assumption. As I layed out, it doesn´t need to be good at pinning things to make very good use of it´s grab ability.
even for non-kraken, without tons of attacks, grab is a great free benefit on top of their attacks. anybody grappled can no longer maneuver for flanking, and two-handed weapon users and casters are screwed. and this can happen on AoO´s, e.g. from movement, leaving its targets mid-way between their intended locations, and in a pretty bad condition.
...As for regular humanoid grapplers... Well, the thing is you can either completely neutralize your opponent by proceding to Pin... or if you want to ´wail on them´ (attacknig for HPs) why not just do that from the start, and get one more blow in for more HPs?
The system actually works just fine IMHO.
This makes sense to me. Normally IRL when i grab someone by the neck the first thing they do is start hitting me in the face. Both of my hands are busy and both of theirs are free.
Yeah, it almost makes me want to stop grabbing people by the neck all the time...