Depends on the level of the wizard. Low level ones would be screwed I agree. As they get higher most I know carry spares even if they are not full spell book spares they will have key spells in them. Or leave a spare book with the NPC's guarding the camp or at a nearby village or something. Something a witch can never do.The problem with the familiar being gone for days is the witch can't memorize her spells with out it. Which means once the spells are used she is SOL until it turns back up and if you are in the middle of a adventure odds are the adventure would then be over before the familiar ever turned back up.How long would it take a wizard to replace his spellbook if it was dropped into a fire? Just for perspective's sake.
What I've considred is leaving the familiar rules as they are and adding one iconic item for the witch.. The Book of Shadows. which is an item that's very much like a wizard's spell book but instead of preparing spells for the book it is a book used to teach the famillar witch spells.
That's been my experience, as well. Your average wizard makes a copy of his spellbook, as soon as it is economically viable to do so. Having a smaller book with copies of just a few really choice spells is also popular. Remember, as well, that a wizard can rewrite spells that he has prepared, from memory, in a new book, so, even if his spare book isn't handy, he's not entirely out of luck (well, unless it's near the end of the adventure and he's used up most or all of his slots...). A witch never has this option.
Having said all of this, when I'm GMing, I tend to be very forgiving about spellbooks. Like I said earlier: the familiars/spellbook set-up is exactly the sort of weakness mechanic that I usually recommend fervently avoiding in any rpg. I mean, if the weakness never comes up, it's kind of meaningless. But if it does come up, the character is effectively crippled and probably out of the game. No win, either way.
Besides, if the game isn't going to worry about the fighter's weapon getting dull or the cleric's armor getting battered or the rogue's tools getting worn out, why should it worry about situations that will result in the wizard's main class feature getting lost?
Note, though, that as a GM, it's harder to be forgiving with a familiar than it is with a spellbook, practically speaking. It's easy enough to conveniently "forget" to make the wizard save for his spellbook, when he gets hit by a fireball, and just assume it survived. But, when the familiar sneaks ahead and gets obviously snuffed, well... Kind of hard to fudge that one.
And yes they do, wizards have the lowest hit die. They just changed that from d4 to d6 - a good change, but 20d6 averages to 70.And added Favored Class. There's a cool +20 HP at 20th for any character who really doesn't want to multiclass at all, which tends to be the pure casters more than other people.
And added the Pathfinder version of Toughness. There's another +20 HP at 20th for anyone who doesn't need to spend a lot of feats on combat effectivness, also tending to be the pure casters more than other people.
And shifted the physical stat bump items to share a common slot. Effectively, a +CON item is significantly less expensive for a character who doesn't much care about STR or DEX. Guess which classes those are?
Etc.
It's a lot of little things that add up to erasing the HP gulf entirely and then some.
Errr.... You kind of lost me, on this one. Given that *all* of the bonuses you mentioned can be taken by *any* class, how does this, in any way, shape, or form, change the fact that wizards have the lowest hit points, on the average? (Or, rather, share them with sorcerers, witches, and the like.) Fighters, for example, tend to send the Favored Class bonus into hp at least as often as wizards, in my experience, and very often take Toughness, as well. They seldom have a Con of less than 12, and 14+ is preferred. So it's generally a wash, and the hit die tells the tale. We won't even get into barbarians, who have a d12 and tend to take Con as their second best ability, anyway...
(And, as Flux Vector pointed out, if you guys are aiming at a 200 point total, the 20th level wizard isn't even remotely close, even with all of the bonuses you just mentioned. Even with an 18 Con, he'd still fall short, on the average.)
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(And, as Flux Vector pointed out, if you guys are aiming at a 200 point total, the 20th level wizard isn't even remotely close, even with all of the bonuses you just mentioned. Even with an 18 Con, he'd still fall short, on the average.)
Actually, if you add all the things he mentioned, along with a starting Con of 14 (very doable with point buy, and not a bad idea for a caster), you get just over 200.
Average of 20d6 = 70 hp
Con 14 = 40 hp
Favored Class = 20 hp
Toughness = 20 hp
Belt of Mighty Constitution +6 = 60 hp
Total = 210 hp
That's not even counting Manual of Bodily Health or Wish Spells, which can add even more to your Con score.
Potential Witch Spells from the Spell Compendium
(page numbers in parentheses)Level 1
Animate Fire (12), Animate Water (13), Backbiter (23), Ebon Eyes (77), Familiar Pocket (88), Moon Lust (143), Omen of Peril (149), Ray of Clumsiness (166), Surefooted Stride (216), Spirit Worm (202)Level 2
Augment Familiar (17), Blinding Spittle (32), Chain of Eyes (45), Claws of Darkness (47), Create Magic Tattoo (55), Curse of Ill Fortune (56), Curse of Impending Blades (56), Dark Way (58), Death Armor (60), Decomposition (61), Frost Breath (100), Malevolent Miasma (137), Phantasmal Assailants (154), Phantom Foe (156), Ray of Sickness (167), Ray of Weakness (168), Reflective Disguise (171), Stolen Breath (207), Veil of Shadow (228), Wave of Grief (236)Level 3
Acid Breath (7), Clutch of Orcus (49), Contagious Fog (52), Corpse Candle (53), Crumble (56), Curse of Impending Blades, Mass (57), Darkfire (59), Enhance Familiar (82), Entangling Staff (83), Fortify Familiar (98), Infestation of Maggots (123), Junglerazer (127), Mage Armor, Greater (136), Mesmerizing Glare (140), Miser’s Envy (142), Nauseating Breath (146), Puppeteer (163), Rust Ray (178), Shadow Binding (182), Spiderskin (202), Unluck (227)Level 4
Burning Blood (40), Consumptive Field (51), Languor (130), Miasma of Entropy (141), Murderous Mist (145), Revenance (175), Spell Enhancer (198), Surefooted Stride, Mass (216), Wither Limb (241), Wrack (243)Level 5
Arc of Lightning (15), Crawling Darkness (55), Curse of Ill Fortune, Mass (56), Dimension Door, Greater (64), Doomtide (70), Graymantle (107), Illusory Feast (120), Indomitability (121), Jungle’s Rapture (128), Last Breath (130), Rejuvenation Cocoon (172), Shadow Form (183), Wail of Doom (233)Level 6
Aura of Terror (18), Drown (74), Fleshshiver (95), Freezing Fog (99), Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (120), Miasma (141), Ray of Entropy (167), Reflective Disguise, Mass (171), Spectral Touch (197)Level 7
Arrow of Bone (16), Avasculate (19), Bestow Curse, Greater (27), Evil Glare...
Thanks. I think you just saved me a lot of time.
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My point isn't you can't get there, it's that you're likely to barely get there, and that's "at 20." Most games never get to 20... so most casters will never get all their bonus hps, or the treasure of a belt of mighty constitution for that matter.
If a level 20 wizard barely survives a death spell without making their save, with full treasure, a 15 or 16 wizard is highly unlikely to be able to survive a 'death spell' without making their save
That may or may not have been your point, but it was certainly the point of Cwylric, who said a 20th level Wizard "isn't even remotely close". Which is wrong, you can get to 200 quite easily. A +6 belt at 20th level is hardly "all of your treasure", in fact it's far closer to pocket change at that level. As an item crafter, the wizard should be able to make one quite easily.
As for your argument, you claimed that an 'average' 15th or 16th level Wizard won't survive a 200 damage destruction spell.
Which is absolutely true! It's also true of most Clerics, Rogues, and any Fighter with a starting Con of under 16. 200 damage is a lot of damage at 15th level. It's being generated by a 20th level caster. If you compare a 15th level destruction to a 15th level Wizard (with the same bonuses from before) you get 150 damage, and once again, Wizard squeaks by with 157 hp.
This is all irrelevant. What Dire Mongoose was getting at when he said Wizards don't have any less hit points than anyone else, and what I think you might be missing by focusing on hit dice, is that hit dice have a relatively minuscule effect on hit points.
Look at the example Wizard I showed above. Of his 210 hit points, only a measly 1/3rd come from hit dice. When you break it down, the difference between a d6 hit dice and a d8 hit dice is really only 1 hp/level. Con score is what really matters when it comes to hp, and Wizards are just as capable of boosting their Con score as anyone else (often better, if they take Craft Wondrous Item)
That's not even counting Manual of Bodily Health or Wish Spells, which can add even more to your Con score.
Using those to boost your con is mutually exclusive with increasing your Intelligence in the same manner. Granted it might actually be smarter in practice because the benefit of more Int is higher save DCs when you're not using save-or-nothing spells anymore anyway, and bonus spell slots that by that point, you're unlikely to be able to use up in a single day.
In what way is it mutually exclusive? It's expensive, I grant you, which is why you probably don't want to max both at +5, but a +2 to Con is affordable at 20th level.
Actually, if you add all the things he mentioned, along with a starting Con of 14 (very doable with point buy, and not a bad idea for a caster), you get just over 200.Average of 20d6 = 70 hp
Con 14 = 40 hp
Favored Class = 20 hp
Toughness = 20 hp
Belt of Mighty Constitution +6 = 60 hp
Total = 210 hpThat's not even counting Manual of Bodily Health or Wish Spells, which can add even more to your Con score.
Well... yeah. I guess if you want your wizard to concentrate on hp, to the exclusion of all else (even Int), anything is possible. But I've never known a wizard to do that to this bizarre a degree. Shouldn't we be talking about more or less normal characters, here, not mutant ones? (And, in any event, this doesn't change the fact that any other class could do exactly the same thing and end up with even more hp, leaving the margin between them quite sizable.)
As usual, I prefer real examples to theories, anyway. Here are some real examples from our last few campaigns. None of them hit level 20, but the trend is pretty obvious and would doubtless have continued.
Last Group (Kingmaker):
Best HP: 14th level Inquisitor (133)
Worst HP: 14th level Sorcerer (76)
Next-to-Last Group (Council of Thieves):
Best HP: 12th level Paladin (119)
Worst HP: 12th level Wizard (63)
Other Group that Happens to be Handy at the Moment (Rise of the Runelords):
Best HP: 6th level Ranger/11th level Scout (187)
Worst HP: 12th level Wizard/5th level Spherewalker (89)
And so on. The pattern, here, in real play, seems pretty obvious and entirely predictable, given the hit dice. Honestly, I'm starting to lose the point of this conversation...
Thanks. I think you just saved me a lot of time.Potential Witch Spells from the Spell Compendium
(page numbers in parentheses)
You're welcome. :) Hopefully, others will find it useful, as well. I took another quick skim over the list, last night, and couldn't any PF-related problems, so far, so I think it'll pretty much stick in our "official" house rules.
Well... yeah. I guess if you want your wizard to concentrate on hp, to the exclusion of all else (even Int), anything is possible. But I've never known a wizard to do that to this bizarre a degree.
But... you're not.
At 20th level, a +6 CON belt isn't even 1% of your wealth.
Most well-played casters I've seen do anything but prioritize CON over everything and still end up crafting one at the low teens levels at the very latest.
Beyond that you're... spending one feat. On a class that has more feats than it really needs.
(And, in any event, this doesn't change the fact that any other class could do exactly the same thing and end up with even more hp, leaving the margin between them quite sizable.)
Except no, for reasons I laid out in my earlier post.
Yes, everyone can spend a feat on toughness. A wizard is typically more likely to do so than a fighter because the fighter needs most of his feats for offense.
Yes, everyone can spend 36k gold on a belt of CON. Except the fighter would really like a STR, DEX, or both stat bump item to go in that slot, whereas the wizard doesn't really care what his STR is. The versions of the belt that cover multiple stats get expensive fast. (Although, yes, I'd expect the theoretically 20th level fighter to be toting the +6 to all of STR/DEX/CON belt.)
Yes, everyone can put their favored class bonus into HP. Assuming they're straight-classed (more likely/viable for a wizard than most characters) and that they don't need skill points for anything (more likely/viable for a class that doesn't lean much on its skills AND has a titanic INT score).
Yes, everyone could start with a 16 CON -- but the wizard can do it without impacting his offense, and some kinds of characters can't.
Add it all up and, in practice, an intelligently built wizard will have about as many HP as anyone else.
And so on. The pattern, here, in real play, seems pretty obvious and entirely predictable, given the hit dice. Honestly, I'm starting to lose the point of this conversation...
And... in my games, the casters have about the same HP as everyone else. So my anecdotes and your anecdotes offset, and I'll say your casters are doing it wrong. :P
I mean, we can both take the position that our players are brilliant and wringing every ounce of toughness out of the game, but my players end up with twice the HP while doing it... a sorcerer in a Kingmaker game I'm playing in is on track to match your 14th level sorcerer for HP... except he'll do it around level 7 depending on how he rolls.
I mean, we can both take the position that our players are brilliant and wringing every ounce of toughness out of the game, but my players end up with twice the HP while doing it... a sorcerer in a Kingmaker game I'm playing in is on track to match your 14th level sorcerer for HP... except he'll do it around level 7 depending on how he rolls.
To be honest, the 14th level sorcerer was kind of a poor example anyway, but I was trying to be fair/random/representative by just pulling out character sheets in the order I found them, rather than by trying to go looking for examples to prove anyone's point. The sorcerer got teased a lot about his hp, which, I would agree, were a bit substandard for the level (elf, not particularly noteworthy Con, etc.). But it came down to prioritizing, and he more than made up for low hp with really impressive spell ability. Kind of carried the show, toward the end, when the boss made melee combat pretty pointless (well, except for the character with Briar, the arc's legacy weapon, who also did well).
Anyway, I was really here to talk about witches, not hp comparisons, so I think I'll just agree to disagree and leave you guys to quarrel over the boring stuff...
I don't see any reason that you can't have "really impressive spell ability" and a lot more HP, but if you're inclined to let the threadjack go I'll try to do the same.
I don't see any reason that you can't have "really impressive spell ability" and a lot more HP, but if you're inclined to let the threadjack go I'll try to do the same.
Heh, heh... Looking back, the majority of these posts have been one giant threadjack. Somewhere along the line an innocent question about a scorpion familiar turned into an in-depth analysis of witches, and I'm as much to blame for that as anyone else. It never ceases to amaze me how threads twist and turn, from beginning to end. I was actually going to suggest branching the witch-analysis into a new thread, earlier, but I think we passed the point where that made sense, quite a while back. Oh well.
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Well... yeah. I guess if you want your wizard to concentrate on hp, to the exclusion of all else (even Int), anything is possible. But I've never known a wizard to do that to this bizarre a degree. Shouldn't we be talking about more or less normal characters, here, not mutant ones? (And, in any event, this doesn't change the fact that any other class could do exactly the same thing and end up with even more hp, leaving the margin between them quite sizable.)
Exclusion of all else? How do you get that? Let's go over what 210 hp cost me.
- I started with a 14 in Con, a quite reasonable score, and one easily attainable with point buy while still maxing Int.
I picked hp with favored class bonus, which is free, but I suppose you could consider the lost 20 skill points an opportunity cost.
I spent one feat out of 10 (not counting bonus feats)
I spent 36,000 gold (or 18,000 gp, if crafting) out of 880,000 gp
Your examples are great by the way. Could you also provide the Con scores of those characters? My assertion is, after all, that it's not hit dice that really profoundly affect hit point totals, but rather Con scores. I'm guessing none of your bottom-enders have higher than a 12, after enhancement bonuses? If they do, they've passed on favored class hit points.
EDIT: Oh, I guess we're dropping the threadjack. :D
Your examples are great by the way. Could you also provide the Con scores of those characters? My assertion is, after all, that it's not hit dice that really profoundly affect hit point totals, but rather Con scores. I'm guessing none of your bottom-enders have higher than a 12, after enhancement bonuses? If they do, they've passed on favored class hit points.
Okay, but only 'cause you asked nice. :) This really is my very last word on the topic, though, given that this is all a bit munchkiny for me and really wasn't why I got involved in the topic, in the first place.
Example 1: Con 10 (an elf, so it actually started at 12; he focused on Dex, Int, and, of course, heavily on Cha); put 12 of his favored class points on hp; actually rolled not bad, though, considering (a bit better than average, for his level).
Example 2: Con 14; put favored class points all into skills; rolled kind of crappy. Living proof of something I have often said, i.e. that hp should be a set amount per level, rather than being rolled (also living proof that having a good Con doesn't necessarily save you - the dice still matter).
Example 3: Con 12; favored class hp don't enter into it, since she was pre-PF.
To be entirely objective, though, I'll throw in a specific example of my own, rather than picking one at random. This is pre-PF, so d4 and no favored class points, but I made a dwarf wizard who deliberately focused on hp, and it was kind of gratifying. 18 Con and Toughness meant that, as you said, his hit dice were less important than his bonuses (although with a d4, instead of a d6, this was more likely to occur, anyway). He rolled fairly well and, by 5th level, had 41 hp. Very nice, for a d4 wizard. And, yes, I realize that it partially proves your point, but it was also rather unusual, took some extra effort, and required him to suffer elsewhere (his Int, for example, was a bit substandard for a wizard - only 14, as I recall).
Anyway, I'm officially out of here, at least as far as the non-witch stuff is concerned. Toodles!
Edit: Just found the dwarf. I was right about the hp, but wrong about the Int, which was 15, having gained an increase at 4th level.
The high Int for a Wizard is not because of Bonus Spells but for Save DC.
In my campaigns (25 point buy) I can confirm that our Casters have only about 10% less HP than our Fighters.
That isn't the point actually. The point is that usually the caster have a lot lower AC/CMD than the fighters and this means that they can't risk a lort of hurt coming their way anyways.