While we tend to play Pathfinder very close to the rules, I have this desire to run a game that is Low Magic....to stress skills and the bit of magic they gain. To make potions once again a real commodity, scrolls something more than fodder for the wizard to scribe into his book, and magic armor/weapons are truly special.
Now, I don't want to just outright ban spellcasters, I'm not against spells (in fact I generally love to play spellcasters)....I simply want to neuter them some.
So, here are my ideas to run a low level campaign....
Barbarians: No changes needed
Bards: -1 spells per day from each level, -1 spells known each level
Cleric: -1 spells per day from each level (this doesn't affect domain spells), do not gain bonus spells from high Wisdom score, cannot spontaneously cast healing spells
Druid: -1 spells per day from each level, cannot select the domain option for nature's bond, do not gain bonus spells from high Wisdom score
Fighter: No changes needed
Monk: No changes needed
Paladin: No changes needed
Ranger: No changes needed
Rogue: Major Magic rogue talent is not available
Sorcerer: -1 spells per day from each level, -1 spells known each level
Wizard: Cannot modify bonded object unless he has the appropriate feat, specialized wizards cannot prepare spells of opposing schools at all, when gaining spells per level he only gains 1 spell instead of 2, it costs double the amount of gold to copy a scroll into his spell book
Finally, item creation feats can really get around some of the restrictions I want to impose. So, here is how those will change:
Magic Armor - costs stay the same, but, caster level must be 4 times the enhancement bonus (not 3 times)
Magic Weapons - costs stay the same, but caster level must be 4 times the enhancement bonus (not 3 times)
Brew Potion - Cost for brewing is 35 gp X level X caster level (instead of 25 gp)
Craft Ring - Costs are increased by 25% of the base cost
Craft Rods - Costs are increased by 25% of the base cost
Scribe Scrolls - Costs are increased by 25% of the base cost
Craft Staff - Costs are increased by 25% of the base cost
Craft Wand - 450 gp x the spell level x caster level
Wondrous Items - Costs are increased by 25% of the base cost
Well, those are my ideas. Please give me your thoughts on it. I would like to make this work, without just "banning" spellcasters.
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I'll respond (against my better judgment).
I do see some issues and I have a question.
Question
How low magic?
Issues - The last part first:
If you are going to be changing the pricing scheme for items but retain the general amount of wealth per encounter/module/etc you really are not going to be getting much of low magic campaign - you are just raising the price tag on the same. They will get the same when they are higher level, have more gold, etc. In other words, eventually they will have the same gear as a normal game, it's just a matter of time.
Changing/limiting material components, rare material components, high restrictions on item creation (become incapacitated, temp loss of abilities, loss of some casting ability, perm loss of score) go much further in creating a plausible and sustainable low magic game since magic is that much harder to produce.
I would also look at every spell and change the material requirements, place restrictions/drawbacks on use or just eliminate them as options.
I think changing/restricting spells is probably the most important aspect of having a functional low magic game.
Without the use of teleport or overland flight physical transportation becomes critical to the party and the story. Without the ability (or limited ability) to scry gathering intel, spies and infiltration also become important aspects of planning and playing a low magic game. Every spell and it's power it grants removes a component of realty based tasks associated with it. An oasis is critical to life when clerics cannot create water (or have very limited ability to do so).
Also I am a strong believer in diminishing returns - if an action, creation of an item, casting a spell or whatever has a higher price than it is worth than it will be rarely used or only used when there is little other recourse (and at high cost).
TL;DR version: upping the gp or subtracting some spells is not going to cut it. IMO of course, I could be wrong (and have been before).
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Cleric - Use of spells such as Raise Dead will require an interview with the PC's deity before they can be used.
All - Cure spells (including Heal) are removed from the game. Characters with the Heal or Knowledge Nature skills can find healing herbs, which cure hit point damage as cure potions (small herbs as cure light wounds, etc.). They require a DC 15 Heal check to use.
While we tend to play Pathfinder very close to the rules, I have this desire to run a game that is Low Magic....to stress skills and the bit of magic they gain.
I'd recommend getting rid of wands and potions entirely, and require the PCs to use things like scrolls if they want to store spells. Reducing cash rewards is probably the easiest road to keeping magic items under control.
Spellcasters are more tricky. You could just reduce casters to +1 caster level per 2 levels, but if you do that you should give them more BaB and/or Skill Points and/or Hit Points. A cleaner solution might be to prevent them from taking caster levels more often than every other level, so any caster must be a Multiclass character after 1st level.
Make item crafters use Craft skill rather than Spellcraft. Most casters won't be able to support more than one or two craft skills so they won't be able to make everything. Also, you could make items formulae-based - if you don't have a formula (like a spell in a spellbook), you can't make a +1 sword or Boots of Elvenkind or whatnot.
Or, just disallow memorized spellcasters. If all you have is spontaneous casters, and they have to have the spells in question (or suffer penalties to the item creation roll), items become problematic to make.
And, of course, don't forget that a low magic setting leaves players ill equipped to deal with 'normal' CR opponents. Scale the combats down or they're toast.
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And, of course, don't forget that a low magic setting leaves players ill equipped to deal with 'normal' CR opponents. Scale the combats down or they're toast.
Not always true. My low-magic party of three level 1 characters recently defeated three ogres.
But in many cases, that will be true, especially when there's a certain spell or group of spells that make everything very easy. Case in point - vampires.
Also, be wary of putting in anything with "drain" in it, either level drain or ability drain, unless you give the characters a way to heal that naturally, such as a magic herb or mythic item.
The E6 rules that people are talking about in other threads would suit a low magic concept fairly well i think
For an alternative you could have full casters (Cleric, Sorcerer ect.)use the bard spell progression table i would also conider limiting the types of caster for instance a low magic world may have no wizards and clerics just sorcerers and oracles.
Partial casters would use the ranger/paladin tables.
I'd also make item creation a lost art so while there are a few enchanted objects about no new ones are being made.
For potions and scrolls i'd make some basic potions non-magical (healing and any others you feel are suitable) and scrolls would become ancient stone tablets that cn be used to cast it's spell 1/day or so.
I think the players would prefer the changes to be at the broader system level rather than having powers ripped from the spellcaster's class abilities.
Take away spells you don't like form the spell lists. Drop metamagic and item creation feats you don't like. Limit magic item treasure. Increase the CR (and XP) of monsters with DR, SP and spell-like abilities. Use the slow progression method for advancement to keep things lower, longer.
Cheers
Mark
Hello, so the first step i might suggest is to run this idea by your players... What you actually decide to do will depend heavily in their input (or should depend on it IMHO). That being said i will share what i do in my games. Firstly i would hesitate stripping spellcasting classes of power (especially bards... lol). In this regard i agree heavily with Mark. This will be especially noticeable at lower levels (below 5th or 6th level) as arcane casters tend to contribute less to the party at lower levels than they do at later levels, and divine casters tend to be healing batteries at lower levels. Hindering their allotment of spells further will only serve to pigeon hole them into specific roles and effectively gimp them when compared to other classes. Even if a player has the desire to play a gimped character during the first few gaming sessions due to novelty, my experience is that that will fade away and leave the player disappointed in the end and either abandon their character or leave the campaign wasting time. You got to give them something or take from everyone. It is a fairness issue, but that is an obvious argument that i do not need to touch further on. I recently ran an extended campaign set in Ravenloft that was definitely "low magic". I made it so in two main ways:
1. I made magic items much less available (as the domain lord Azalin hoarded most of the items in the domain). This does not mean just the price is increased, but also that items are simply not available or aren't carried by vendors at all. I liked your increased prices though. In my campaign this was relatively easy to control as most monsters i used did not have treasure so i would control what the PCs got by predetermining rewards given for their deeds by the local magistrate or whatever.
2. Spellcaster classes are rare and are usually reserved for monsters. Going into town is not a good place to go for getting spellcasting as there are no "openly practicing spellcasters" or spellcasting services offered... period. Perhaps the gods have fallen silent or maybe your world is more into technology and has forgotten magic. This does not mean you have to nerf any class, it is fun for players to think that they are the only one that can do what they do. When players do not see magic being used by NPCs all around them and don't find magic items after every kill, they will know magic is rare even if they can cast spells or even produce magic items.
This all being said what worked for my group might not work for yours. I just thought i would share what we did, but again i would strongly recommend that you not nerf some classes and not others. A point of curiosity, were you planning on reducing spellcasting of mansters too or just the civilized society has less magic? Anyways thanks for reading and good luck!
First off, thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions.
To answer some of what people have asked....
I did plan on restricting magic item treasure and availability. That is easily done, of course, but I will also have to limit their gold intake as well (or at least make them pay for more things...)
I definitely don't want to get rid of all of a particular magic item. Be it scrolls, potions, rings, or whatever.....I just want them to be more valuable to the players.
Some of you may be right though...might be better to limit the spells that I don't want in the campaign. Just turn around and say "These types of spells aren't available."
Any other ideas?
I did plan on restricting magic item treasure and availability. That is easily done, of course, but I will also have to limit their gold intake as well (or at least make them pay for more things...)
Well, whatever you do, players will spend all their cash on magical goodies. What else is there to do with it? Once your fighter has masterwork full plate and masterwork weapons, and maybe a nice horse, there's little left to spend it on.
One option is to expand the masterwork system, so that masterwork items are/can be 'better' without being strictly magical. One campaign we ran we did this, and basically limited how many 'improvements' could be rolled into masterwork based on the ranks of craft the maker had (so good rolls simply weren't enough).
You could also consider allowing the Leadership feat (many GMs ban it for understandable reasons), as Followers tend to suck up loose cash nicely - especially when there's an expensive fortress for them to keep up.
I definitely don't want to get rid of all of a particular magic item. Be it scrolls, potions, rings, or whatever.....I just want them to be more valuable to the players.
I guess it depends on their mindset. If they're used to using wands to Cure Light Wounds to heal up between fights, AND you give clerics less spells, they'll still pay whatever you're charging for a wand and call it a wand tax. Any dumbing down of spellcasting classes actually makes wands more desirable, as casters try to shore up their usefulness. That's why I recommended getting rid of wands - it's magical power on demand, after all.
Now, if wands drained the hit points of the user when you used them, then you've got magic-at-a-price, which is a low magic standard. Potions that cause 1d2 CON damage (temp)? Spellcasting causing subdual damage (perhaps Spell Level - CON bonus; that way low level spells are okay for robust casters, while high level spells fatigue everyone)?
Make magic use non-casual and you've achieved half the battle. Buff before a potential encounter? Is it worth the problems? Use that blood-hungry wand in a battle? Drink that noxious brew that Witch sold you?
Further, if there are spells you don't like, give them even worse consequences rather than outright banning them. Make Teleportation riskier. Make summoned monsters unreliable (attack nearest thing rather than controlled). Save-or-die spells could backfire (if the target saves, now it's YOUR turn to save...). Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves - and hopefully laugh about it.
Iron Kingdoms tried some of these notions, but generally failed because they made it needlessly complex (healing rules, resurrection tables and charts, etcetera). That doesn't mean that it can't work, however.
