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An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
- Bestiary, p.301
I need some clarification on this. Does this mean a human sized shadow can walk through a 5' thick wall but cannot walk through a 10' thick wall?
Or can the shadow do so because he's adjacent to say the east side of the wall for the first 5' and then adjacent to the other side of the wall for the last 5'?
In the latter case, the shadow would still not be able to move through a wall 15' thick (or even 11', I guess.)
That is an interesting question because I find this confusing.
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An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.
- Bestiary, p.301I need some clarification on this. Does this mean a human sized shadow can walk through a 5' thick wall but cannot walk through a 10' thick wall?
Or can the shadow do so because he's adjacent to say the east side of the wall for the first 5' and then adjacent to the other side of the wall for the last 5'?
The first. 10' is larger than 5'. At some point in passing through the 10' wall, the shadow would be 1' from the east side and 4' from the west side, which it can't do.
However, the shadow can pass through a wall of any thickness if it moves along the side of an opening that pierces through (or comes within 5 feet of doing so).
The first. 10' is larger than 5'. At some point in passing through the 10' wall, the shadow would be 1' from the east side and 4' from the west side, which it can't do.
That makes even less sense because increments are always divided into 5'. No less.
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That makes even less sense because increments are always divided into 5'. No less.
The first. 10' is larger than 5'. At some point in passing through the 10' wall, the shadow would be 1' from the east side and 4' from the west side, which it can't do.
That would be one literal reading of the rules, perhaps. If that's your approach, I would simply ask, what part of the rule emphasised by the OP is unclear?
That would be one literal reading of the rules, perhaps. If that's your approach, I would simply ask, what part of the rule emphasised by the OP is unclear?That makes even less sense because increments are always divided into 5'. No less.
The first. 10' is larger than 5'. At some point in passing through the 10' wall, the shadow would be 1' from the east side and 4' from the west side, which it can't do.
I think I failed to mention in my first post that it wasn't his particular rule interpretation I found confusing (though his question makes perfect sense), it is the rule itself that an incorporeal creature can only pass through an arbitrary amount of corporeal mass.
I think some one should FAQ this thread if it hasn't been because I think he poses a very good question, the nonsense aside.
Damon, the short answer is: Yes, an incorporeal medium creature that takes up a 5' square cannot travel farther than 5' into a solid material, so moving through a 10' think wall would be no-go. However, if you follow the reasoning I present below and your creature knows the surroundings extremely well, you might allow for an occasional extension of that range...
Think about the reasoning here and you'll understand more:
If you were a ghost and were about to enter an area with no light - *you would be completely blind within that area* - would you want to travel more than a body's length into it, knowing that if you lost your orientation, it's possible that you could be lost *forever* within that area? How many incorporeal spirits would be forever wandering blind within the earth, flying around randomly in the hopes of emerging into the open by sheer luck? If I were one of them, I'd be terrified of passing through anything solid unless I knew it was thin, such as a wall or door... Fly through a mountain? Hell no!
The opinion of a single GM...
Damon, the short answer is: Yes, an incorporeal medium creature that takes up a 5' square cannot travel farther than 5' into a solid material, so moving through a 10' think wall would be no-go. However, if you follow the reasoning I present below and your creature knows the surroundings extremely well, you might allow for an occasional extension of that range...
Think about the reasoning here and you'll understand more:
If you were a ghost and were about to enter an area with no light - *you would be completely blind within that area* - would you want to travel more than a body's length into it,
You're incorporeal, you can just keep going until you come out somewhere else - maybe in infinite earth you could keep walking forever without coming out but otherwise if you go in a straight line far enough, you will eventually come out somewhere. Or head back in the direction you came.
If I was a ghost, I wouldn't care because I would be dead. Earth's core. Some guy's house. All the same to me.
That's retarded.
Agreed.
It would make sense that for as long as you are incorporeal you could go move as far as you wanted, regardless of thickness. If you are limited on time it is your decision to keep going forward and hope to come out another side or to turn around and go back.
Looks like yet another thing to be added to my House Rules.
@Starglim and Marc Chin - Thanks for your responses. I'm going to have to be somewhat pedantic about this because I'm DMing a player who recently took some Shadowdancer levels and he's the sort who will try to exploit every possible trick. I need to be very clear about the RAW before I decide whether any sort of houseruling is needed.
Given your two responses, said player is likely to give me a situation like this:
Imagine a 10' thick wall with a gate opening. Overlay the wall with a grid of 5' squares. I want my shadow to walk through the wall 20' to the right of the gate. You say I can't do it because the wall is thicker than the 5' space my shadow takes up, right? Okay, take this square by square:
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
...............................................................S
The wall is immediately north of the shadow. Shadow enters the wall 20' to the right of the gate. He's adjacent to the exterior. He moves a few squares to the right, putting him at the corner of the exterior wall and gate. He's still adjacent to the exterior.
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +-S-+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
As soon as he takes a 5' step north, he'll no longer be adjacent to the exterior of the south side of the wall, but that's okay because he's still adjacent to the east side of the gate passage.
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +-S-+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
Now he can move east and reach the point where he intends to exit --
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+-S-+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
+---+---+---+---+ open +---+---+---+---+---+
Now, here's the problem: the shadow has moved into or through 10 squares, all of which you agree are adjacent to the exterior. Given that a 5' step is the smallest movement considered by the game, and the fact that both his starting and ending sqaures are adjacent to the exterior, he should be able to move directly from #1 to #10 without having to take the long route through #2-#9.
Note that the above is the argument I can expect from the PLAYER; it's not what I'm insisting on, it's merely the basis for my need for clarification.
EDIT: If the RAW's intention was to stipulate that the incorporeal creature must be able to simultaneously "touch" his entry and exit points, that would be enough to preclude moving straight through the wall in the above scenario.
I guess incorporeal thieves can't raid the bank then.
Provided the bank walls are greater than five foot thick: I could see the following:
Employee: "Director are you sure the bank vault is safe?"
Director: "Kid, that's a foot of reinforced magically hardened adamantine we have there, with all the anti-teleportation spells we could find. Nothing is getting through it."
Then some incorporeal going right through since it isn't over 5 feet thick.
Also you only need a total of 1 square foot missing from any five foot section to pass through it.
Besides it would probably be better to use the gaseous form spell than simple incorporealness -- because the spell specifies you can pass through objects.
Damon, the short answer is: Yes, an incorporeal medium creature that takes up a 5' square cannot travel farther than 5' into a solid material, so moving through a 10' think wall would be no-go. However, if you follow the reasoning I present below and your creature knows the surroundings extremely well, you might allow for an occasional extension of that range...
Think about the reasoning here and you'll understand more:
If you were a ghost and were about to enter an area with no light - *you would be completely blind within that area* - would you want to travel more than a body's length into it,
You're incorporeal, you can just keep going until you come out somewhere else - maybe in infinite earth you could keep walking forever without coming out but otherwise if you go in a straight line far enough, you will eventually come out somewhere. Or head back in the direction you came.
If I was a ghost, I wouldn't care because I would be dead. Earth's core. Some guy's house. All the same to me.
Just a thought to continue on Marc Chin's thought:
It could be the way you move is by having a point of reference -- if you were to lose your point of reference (by being blind) you might end up not able to move at all since you don't have something to "direct" yourself too. Incorporeal movement isn't simply shifting your feet or flapping your wings -- such things won't move you at all, I imagine it's by visual reference -- without such a reference you don't move.
Now before anyone else says it I realize that if you were to blind an incorporeal somehow then they should be immobile with this idea which the rules currently don't support -- but how are you going to blind an incorporeal target?
Besides it would probably be better to use the gaseous form spell than simple incorporealness -- because the spell specifies you can pass through objects.
That is most certainly not what the spell says. It says you can pass through any sized crack or hole.
Incorporeal movement isn't simply shifting your feet or flapping your wings -- such things won't move you at all, I imagine it's by visual reference -- without such a reference you don't move.
Then you can NEVER move ANYWHERE you don't have line of sight. Since they CAN move to places they don't have line of sight - with entirely arbitrary limitation, your argument fails.
It could be the way you move is by having a point of reference -- if you were to lose your point of reference (by being blind) you might end up not able to move at all since you don't have something to "direct" yourself too. Incorporeal movement isn't simply shifting your feet or flapping your wings -- such things won't move you at all, I imagine it's by visual reference -- without such a reference you don't move.Now before anyone else says it I realize that if you were to blind an incorporeal somehow then they should be immobile with this idea which the rules currently don't support -- but how are you going to blind an incorporeal target?
Incorporeal creatures, per the Bestiary, have an innate sense of direction and can move at normal speed even if they can't see. Blindness is specified as having no or reduced effect on incorporeal creatures.
So.. it should become norm to bury people 10 feet down instead of 6, in the game world- eh? Prevents ghosties tied to the body from ever getting out of the grave. (11-12 would be better, to account for ground settling).
-S
The "an incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own" rule is particularly confusing because of the Ghost Step ninja trick: "as a swift action, a ninja with this trick can pass through walls as if she were a ghost. Until the end of her turn, she can pass through a wall or other surface that is up to 5 feet thick per level as if she were incorporeal. She must exit the solid material by the end of her turn. Each use of this ability uses up 1 ki point."
It's a little up in the air but I'll count this as tally two. There's no confusion. Ghosts can only move through space equal to or smaller than their square space. Despite the fact that the game has several easy to access size enhancers for characters, the game only ever assumes PCs (read creatures with class levels) are medium or small size, and thus a PC mimicking a ghost's ability to move through walls will only be able to travel through 5ft thick and thinner walls by nature of their size being 5ft.
Pretty straight forward.