Poison: the fine details of stacking multiple doses

[reefwood]

On page 558 of the Core Rulebook, there is an example of how three doses of Medium monstrous spider venom would stack. I understand how the numbers add up but it has left me a little confused as to what happens in the round where the victim is poisoned.

The poison is normally DC 14 with a frequency of 1/rd for 4 rds. Adding an additional dose increases the DC by +2, so two more doses makes it DC 18. Adding an additional dose also extends the total duration by half its total duration, so half of 4 rds is 2 rds more dose, so two more doses makes is 4 rds +2 rds +2 rds = 8 rds. I understand this part, but...

There is no onset time, so doesn't the victim make a save against the poison as soon as he is bit? If so, the first bite would actually require just the normal Fort DC 14...right? If so, the second bite would require a Fort DC 16, and it wouldn't be until the third bite that the DC is Fort DC 18. And then, it would Fort DC 18 for the next 7 rds?

Or does the victim not make a save until the round after being bit? And either way, am I correct in believing that subsequent saves are made at the start of the spiders' turn?

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Another question I have is how to handle the stacking of poisons that have a secondary effect that is different than the initial effect? Such as blue whinnis or burnt othur fumes...although, as an inhaled poison, burnt othur fumes would stack a bit differently than the injury poison of blue whinnis. Anyway...

A victim is hit is blue whinnis poison in Round 1 and fails the save (Fort DC 14), so he takes 1 Con damage. If he fail the save in the Round 2, he falls unconscious for 1d3 hrs.

If the victim is hit with a second dose in Round 1, does he need to make another save to resist another 1 Con damage? Against Fort DC 16? Also, the normal frequency is 1/rd for 2 rds, so the second dose increases it to 3 rds, but what is the result of failure in Rounds 2 and 3? Are they both to save against Fort DC 16 or fall unconscious for 1d3 rds? If so, failing both additional saves means the victim will be unconscious for 2d3 rnds, correct? This actually makes sense now that I type it out.

But what if the second dose of poison isn't administered until Round 2?
So in Round 1, the victim is hit with poison and fails the save (DC 14), so he takes 1 Con damage. In Round 2, the victim is hit with poison again and fails the save (DC 16), so takes another 1 Con damage and falls unconscious for 1d3 hrs. In Round 3, the victim fails the third save (DC 16) and the unconscious time is extended another 1d3 hrs. Does all this sound correct?

Or I guess it depends at what point the save is rolled? Because if the save is rolled at the start of the attacker's turn in Round 2, the victim will fall unconscious before the second hit is made. If so, and the attacker still hits the victim with a second dose of poison, does that require a new/second save to resist 1 Con damage in Round 2, and what is the DC? The victim is unconscious, and the first dose of poison has completed its "actions" and has no more frequency, so does the second dose of poison reset to the normal Fort DC 14? Or since the poison is still having an effect by keeping this person unconscious, it is still in their system, so should the second dose be Fort DC 16?

[wraithstrike]

Nethys had a post explaining how this worked better than I ever could. I would do a search for his name then go to "recent post" and check for poison.

[reefwood]

wraithstrike wrote:

Nethys had a post explaining how this worked better than I ever could. I would do a search for his name then go to "recent post" and check for poison.

Thanks! I just spend a lot of time reading through threads about poison. If others are interested, here is the one by Nethys that seemed to do the best job of explaining RAW and a non-RAW variant to reduce the amount of roles when there is a lot of poisoning going on:

Nethys' insight

But then, I found this by a "lead designer" named Jason which seems to make a lot of sense and be how it was intended:

Jason's ruling

[0gre]

The initial save was always at the listed DC regardless of whether you had previously been affected. So Blake's example should look like this:

Let's assume 5 spiders with a DC 14 1d2 strength poison

Initial Round:
1st Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
2nd Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
3rd Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
4th Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
5th Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage

2nd Round (Assuming you failed all previous):
6th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage

3rd Round:
7th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage

This is consistent with what Jason said.

There was a lot of confusion about the poison rules early on, the post by Jason really cleared things up a lot. I wish they would get that one into the FAQ.

[reefwood]

0gre wrote:

The initial save was always at the listed DC regardless of whether you had previously been affected. So Blake's example should look like this:

Let's assume 5 spiders with a DC 14 1d2 strength poison

Initial Round:
1st Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
2nd Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
3rd Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
4th Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage
5th Save DC 14, 1d2 strength damage

2nd Round (Assuming you failed all previous):
6th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage

3rd Round:
7th Save DC 22, 1d2 strength damage

This is consistent with what Jason said.

There was a lot of confusion about the poison rules early on, the post by Jason really cleared things up a lot. I wish they would get that one into the FAQ.

Yeah, that looks good to me, and it clears up my confusion over the blue whinnis poison... you take the initial effect/damage each time you fail against a new dose, and secondary failed saves result in the secondary effect/damage... and it seems to be a similar amount even if both doses hit in the same round or consecutive rounds.

Blue whinnis poison (2 doses in the same round)
(Fort DC 14, frequency 1/rd for 2 rds, effect 1 Con/1d3 hrs unconscious)

Initial Round
1st Dose - 1st save DC 14: fail for 1 Con damage & another save required next round
2nd Dose - 2nd save DC 14: fail for 1 Con damage & +2 DC in 2nd Round & +1 rnd duration

2nd Round
Multiple Dose - 3rd save DC 16: fail for 1d3 hrs unconscious

3rd Round
Multiple dose - 4th save DC 16: fail for 1d3 hrs unconscious

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Blue whinnis poison (2 doses in consecutive rounds)

Initial Round
1st dose - 1st save DC 14: fail for 1 Con damage & another save required next round

2nd Round
2nd dose - 2nd save DC 14: fail for 1 Con damage, +2 DC, +1 rnd duration
Multiple Dose - 3rd save DC 16, fail for 1d3 hrs unconscious

3rd Round
Multiple Dose - 4th save DC 16: fail for 1d3 hrs unconscious

Do these examples look right?

[0gre]

Looks fine to me. The third round of saves is pointless though, either they save and are cured or they fail the save and are unconscious. I don't think the duration of unconsciousness would stack.

For what it's worth I like Drow poison a lot better, it puts them unconscious as soon as they are hit and it's cheaper.