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For the rules grognards out there:
My players generally do not min/max, and usually choose their feats and abilities and such in a desultory fashion. All well and good - they play in character, we do more role vs. roll playing, which is just how I like it.
At the same time, I like to keep a tight reign on magic items - I'm pretty stingy with them, in fact. I like to keep magic in my game rare and wonderful, so to speak. I recognize, however, that the CR in the bestiary assumes a certain amount of magical augmentation on the players. I want to make sure they have enough magical tat in order to have a fighting chance - but JUST enough.
They've just hit level 5, and so far there hasn't been much of a problem, but the CR's are going up and I'm concerned that the party's collective AC's are going to end up a little low over the next 5 levels unless I do something.
My problem is judging where party AC needs to be. Maybe this is addressed somewhere in the books and I've missed it, but I'm looking for advice on the matter.
It seems to me that most Melee-based monsters have melee attacks that are roughly 2x their CR. So a tank-type character who relies on AC (rather than massive Hit Points) should have an AC of about 2x level +5-10
I'm less sure about support classes and casters, though. Obviously every player wants as high an AC as possible, but what SHOULD a wizard or a bard's AC be at a given level?
The "Part two" of the question for me is, what's the best way to stack up armor class without magic, both for regular armored fighters and armored clerics as well as classes like barbarian and ranger which typically go for lighter armors? What about characters like bards and wizards?
Thanks in advance.
My problem is judging where party AC needs to be. Maybe this is addressed somewhere in the books and I've missed it, but I'm looking for advice on the matter.
One thing you can look at is the Monster Creation rules in the Bestiary. There's a handy table showing you typical monster statistics by CR.
For instance, a CR 6 monster would have roughly a +12 bonus to hit with its best attack, so an AC of 23 would get hit about half the time.
I second Hogarth's recommendation. That table in the back of the Bestiary is a handy tool to use.
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One thing you can look at is the Monster Creation rules in the Bestiary. There's a handy table showing you typical monster statistics by CR.
For instance, a CR 6 monster would have roughly a +12 bonus to hit with its best attack, so an AC of 23 would get hit about half the time.
Yeah, that's pretty straightforward for things like armored fighters, but less so for classes like Barbarian who rely more on Hit Points vs. AC, or for characters who avoid most combat like Wizards and Bards.
Also, I know that achieving an AC up in the low to mid 20's without magic is very easy for characters who go for heavier armor and shields, but I'm looking for non-magical (or minimally magic) means to do the same for the light armor classes as well as knowing the best way my players can push their AC's up into the 30's and low 40's.
The "Part two" of the question for me is, what's the best way to stack up armor class without magic, both for regular armored fighters and armored clerics as well as classes like barbarian and ranger which typically go for lighter armors? What about characters like bards and wizards?
Shields and feats are really your only recourse outside of magic. They'll only go so far though. Bards and wizards have plenty of defensive spells that will keep them safe.
Other than that, your party might have to develop different tactics in later levels (like denying the enemy the ability to hit in the first place) if defensive magic boosts are scarce.
I'm looking for non-magical means to do the same for the light armor classes as well as knowing the best way my players can push their AC's up into the 30's and low 40's with a minimum of magic help.
They really can't.
I mean, sure, you can squeak a little AC out of options like Dodge or Combat Expertise, or getting natural armor somehow and throwing feats at that, or picking the rage powers that can give some +AC...
But mostly, the things you can do to get your AC up that high come at far too high of an opportunity cost, unless you're the kind of charitable GM who will make monsters focus fire on the guy with full plate and a tower shield while there are many softer targets available.
you should also strongly consider saves as well as AC. Remember though 3 of the big six magic items deal with AC one very important (well cloaks of resistance mainly, and stat boosters as a potential secondary boost to saves) one deals with Saves. Without those handy cloaks of resistance, you may see the save based effects of appropriate CR monsters become very cery difficult, and depending on the monster those can mean alot more then the hp damage their attacks do.
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Nerfing magic items without nerfing casters is always bad.
I do understand this, which is why I don't really want to "nerf" magic items in my campaign so much as make them feel rarer and more special. Below level 5 this hasn't been much of a problem, but with the advent of 3rd level spells I need to start making more item drops and I want them to "count".
I'm thinking I'd rather have fewer magic items that are multi-functional than have lots of magic tat that are each specialized. For example: Instead of a cloak of resistance, a ring or protection, and a periapt of health, maybe have a single item that does all three, or an item with multiple functions that the players can unlock as they level up.
Another thing to do if the party hasn't gained higher saves/AC yet but you want to use more/different monsters:
De-power the monsters a little. The Young and similar templates are easy ways to do this. Or where the party gets attacked by four of something, attack them with three instead.
Honestly, don't obsess about AC. It's just one of many factors that influence the power of the PCs relative to their opponents, and probably not the most important one.
My advice is to play it by feel. You say things are going smoothly now, so no reason to course correct. If the party starts to struggle a bit, then you can consider tossing them a few appropriate magic items, be they AC-boosters, damage-boosters, stat-boosters, or whatever, or you can adjust the monsters as DQ suggested.
You have lots of tools as a DM to keep adventures balanced. AC boosting is just one of them.
Combat monster need to roll as a rough guild 15 10 5
Should need 15 for Defender types Ie( Fighter, Paladins, Caviler)Heay Armor/ shield
Should need 10 for most others Ranger and some Barbarians and Most 8 HP hit Dice Medium Armor and Shiled
Should need 5 for Some Barbarians*, Arcane Casters Ie 6 HP hit Dice No Armor
*(Raging, Charging, and Enlarged)
For Equal CR Monster + or 1 for each CR above or lower.
So For CR +3 12 for Defender, +7 for Mediums, +2 for Arcane Caster
So For CR -3 18 for Defender, +13 for Mediums, +8 for Arcane Caster
The other thing needed to factor buffing.
If monster is above the curve + 1 more so then giving time to buff counter the curve the other way.
This though of as some what average fight some will need more but some need less. Try to keep it average to this in long term.
If you keep wealth to average wealth by level then do not have to change Monster to keep challenges fair but challenging.
If keep wealth by level off curve as party then you may have to fix it by though lower CR fight to keep balance in scale. If give out to much then fight may to easy and not challenge. Or just kill people over and over again till you see the point. As GM you Give out the Wealth but also set CR/ Challenge.
CR 1 Goblin is equal fight party 1level party, but CR 20 Pit Fiend is insane level 1 party, or CR 1 Goblin dum fight for 20 level party.
Result may vary
If your mage that Cast Shield, Mage Armor, and Protection form What ever the his AC should be at lest 20 and that throws thing off curve to hit him. But it took him 3 round of action to do so as well. That 3 round he did not help in the fight. Action economy an other Factor
I have seen other threads about AC Build that monster need 20 to hit them nice, but selfish. Cause what happens the GM just dose not Attack them and the other PC get attack more often and there for killed. In 3.0, 3.5, 3.75/Pathfinder there or not many way to get monster to Attack one PC not and other. That is controlled by you the GM.
Lastly is tactics yours GMs and the PCs that you or they use.
A Dragon is smart and will go after caster, but Wolf will attack who ever hit it last or the hardest and does not understand spells at all. (For that matter anyone with out Spellcraft really dose not understand spells) but that another thread.
Keep thing in balence is good. While at level one is not much but it componds as level go up in both direction good or bad. And if nerf magic item then Caster just become stronger then why play any thing but them. No matter what you need your tools to do the job with out them fight are boring. But if have laser guild +5 sword of doom that Holy,flaming burst, Keen,Bane Dragon, Fey, Gaint, Cold Iron-Mitharl-Adamatning alloy at level 3 that heals you what ever damage you do then who cares. What the Challenge.
While AC relative to the average monster AC at that level isn't as critical as say poor saves or to hit bonus vs monster AC it's still pretty relevant.
Even being a few points of AC behind the average for your level means that feats like power attack are more powerful and that you will be taking more damage per attack/full attack.
This generally leads to increased demands on healers, etc.
Reducing the threat level relative to the PCs can go a long way towards resolving the issue. If a hard encounter is CR=APL +2 then a group with lower bonuses will likely be challenged by a CR=APL or CR=APL+1 encounter.
The other option is reducing the number of challenging solo encounters as CR +2 solo creatures often have attacks and defenses that are extremely challenging to PCs without the normal WBL.
A CR=APL BBEG + a ton of mooks is a much more manageable encounter under these circumstances.
Be flexible as well. It's very easy to accidentally throw foes that are too powerful at weaker than average PCs. This increases your chances of TPKs to unacceptable levels.
This gets especially important when you start throwing some of the tougher outsiders and dragons at the PCs as they often have access to SoL effects that can neutralize PCs rapidly.
The magic item components suggested above sound absolutely awesome. I'm immediately taking that idea for the next game I DM. It sounds epic and cool, as well as functional, which I think is what you are going for....trying not to devalue the coolness of magic by having it all over the place.
Multi-function items work really well, too. And will certainly give you the feeling you're looking for of fewer items, but high impact "wow factor" of the items the group does find.
You can also work in story-benefits when you need to. If something difficult is coming up, but they are going through with it for a local church, a cleric could give them a god's blessing that ups their defenses for this quest...or you can use morale bonuses from other factors. I've been toying with the idea of instituting a minor "momentum" scale into combats (as I find a lot of players rarely use the Hero Points we play with, this would make turning the tide of the battle with a big save or AoO or Power Attack more of a reason to use Hero Points). Just a few ideas.
You can't call yourself a tank until you have at least AC 20 + character level (assuming you are facing appropriate CR encounters).
I do want to echo the combination item suggestion used above.
I personally find the ubiquitous cloak of resistance to be horribly boring so I'm definitely in favor of including resistance bonuses into other relatively common items.
If armors and rings of protection gave resistance bonuses equal to their enhancement/deflection bonus that would be a good way of reducing one of the big six from the game. Resistance bonuses will still lag behind but it will be within a fairly close range.
Stat Bonuses can be lumped in with common implements/weapons. So for example you might have a Longsword +2 of Giant Strength (which gives a +2 to strength), or a Staff +1 of Mighty Intellect (which gives a +4 to Intelligence). This means that separated from their big item their relative power goes way down.
Giving a Class Bonus to Defense (see Unearthed Arcana) can eliminate the need for Amulets of Natural Armor, etc.
That reduces the number of the big six that are actually required to make a level appropriate character. This means magic is more rare/wonderful.
Another option is to enhance the duration of common buffs like Bull's Strength and reduce the cost of potions.
That would enable a fighter to quaff a potion of bull's strength at the beginning of the day and operate all day long (or some percentage of that). Being a consumable there is still a cost associated with the buff but it's less of an issue than must always have belt of strength +2 by level 5.
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If you want to make magic items more special & rare, then Legendary Items may be what you want. I have no idea what book they are in, or if it is 3.5 or PFRPG.
Essentially, you could have the normal items in the book (cloak of resistance), but that scale to the wearer. For instance, a 1st level character would put the cloak on and it would be +1, while if a 10th level character put it on, it may be +3.
Ditto with magic weapons, headbands, belts, etc.
This would make the players very possesive of their magic items.
In addition, offer magic creation feats to them and give them some time to craft.
Kyrt and Vuron both have some excellent ideas
but here is yet another
reward magic item powers as you feel neccessary. especially upon items of which players either have backstory for or have used for a long time. don't worry about which slot a power belongs to when giving these abilities. but it's a good idea for them to make sense. i beleive that few greater powered multipurpose items are better than several smaller ones. don't be worried about statistical limits either. making the items scale as you advance in power works too.