Is a creature considered observed when you have made a successful perception check to notice them? Is this perception check made as passive? If so what do you use to determine the result of a passive perception check?
For example, someone enters an alley, a round later another person enters the same alley from behind.
In this scenario is the third party entering the alley:
1) automatically observed as they are within line of sight (and pathfinder has no facing rules)?
2) observed after an active perception check is rolled by the creature already present in the alley?
3) observed after a passive perception check is compared against the perception DC to notice that another creature has entered the alley.
Any help is appreciated!
I am sort of confused. Who's the third party?
If I am intuiting your question correctly, the answer is #1.
Sorry i should have been clearer in my example.
Round 1: Player enters an alley from the south end and travels 30 ft north.
Round. 2: Player travels another 60 ft north in the alley way, upon reaching that point an NPC enters the alley from the south end (same point the player originally came in from).
So does the player automatically see the NPC, barring there is no cover or concealment from obstacles?
The Perception section in the Skills chapter has a table that says it is Perception DC 0 to notice a visible creature.
--This is an automatic success for anyone with a Perception modifier of +0 or higher, but even if you have a negative Perception modifier, I'd be hard pressed to believe you can't see someone standing in plain sight.
--The Perception DC could be higher if the alley is darkened by shadowy light, and there is a Perception modifier of +1 per 10 ft, so that would be Perception DC 2 if the first person in the alley was 20 ft away.Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
--I usually let players make a Perception check as a free action when they move into a new area or if an opponent just made a Stealth check nearby. If they want to look around again in the area, it is no longer a new area, so the new Perception check is a move action.Also, I sometimes allow passive Perception checks and treat it as Taking 10, so 10 +Perception modifier. I believe this is how D&D 4.0 handles passive checks.
Okay so basicly base DC 0 plus modifiers, which makes perfect sense.
So if the NPC actively stealths prior to entering the alley would the standard stealth + perception modifiers apply for the player to spot the NPC?
The reason I am asking is because a lot of people argue that once you are in the open with no cover or concealment you are considered to be observed.
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The reason I am asking is because a lot of people argue that once you are in the open with no cover or concealment you are considered to be observed.
That's because, per the Rules as Written, you are.
If people are observing you using any of their senses
(but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most
creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to
use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted
(such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.
If you are in the open and someone or something that could potentially could be observing you isn't distracted, you are observed.
Please bear in mind, I'm not saying that's realistic or unrealistic, it's just what the rules say. And before anyone says "But J, they don't say that, exactly", please ask yourself, "Self, have you ever said anything without explicitly saying it? If so, when? Could the passage cited above be an example of such a situation?"
The reason I am asking is because a lot of people argue that once you are in the open with no cover or concealment you are considered to be observed.That's because, per the Rules as Written, you are.
If people are observing you using any of their senses
(but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most
creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to
use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted
(such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.If you are in the open and someone or something that could potentially could be observing you isn't distracted, you are observed.
Please bear in mind, I'm not saying that's realistic or unrealistic, it's just what the rules say. And before anyone says "But J, they don't say that, exactly", please ask yourself, "Self, have you ever said anything without explicitly saying it? If so, when? Could the passage cited above be an example of such a situation?"
I see that in the stealth rules, I just wonder if a PC must choose to actively observe or make perception checks (beyond their passive perception) in order to be considered observing an NPC or PC. Otherwise you never need to make perception checks to spot an enemy, no matter what the distance is so long as there is no cover or concealment.
Edit: I'm not trying to be argumentative as I know you are only citing RAW, i guess what would be nice is a definition of "observed".
You are not observed until someone actually spots you via a successfully perception check. After that you are considered to be observed by that person until you manage to make a successful stealth check.
Now if you are standing out in the open less than 10 feet from someone, that is a DC 0 perception check. In theory, if you had a wisdom of 6 or less, it is possible to fail your perception check against someone 5 feet away. It is also possible to fail this if there are other modifiers in play(like being distracted). Basically, if you have at least a +3 to perception, you will automatically spot anyone who is not being sneaky within 30 feet, and have a better than 50/50 chance of spotting anyone out in the open withing 130 feet.
Contrary to popular belief, you do not automatically lose stealth when you move out into the open. You are merely unable to restealth should you become observed.
Now lets say you follow someone into a dim alley.
- The other person is using stealth, they rolled a 10 and have a +6 stealth modifier, base DC of 16
- The person looking is 40 feet away +4 DC.
- The dim light and clutter in the alley could be considered unfavorable conditions +2 DC.
So you would be looking at a DC 22 check. If you succeed, they are observed. Since the dim light in the alley provides concealment(unless you have darkvision), they can attempt to stealth even when observed as a move action. This would then in turn force you to make another perception check.
In most cases, perception is a free action, but if a players wants to take extra time to look for something specific, that is a move action.
A good example of this is searching a room. If you want to completely search a room, you can take a 20(take 20 times as long) on each 5 foot square. Each 5 foot square would take 20 move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
You are not observed until someone actually spots you via a successfully perception check. After that you are considered to be observed by that person until you manage to make a successful stealth check.
Now if you are standing out in the open less than 10 feet from someone, that is a DC 0 perception check. In theory, if you had a wisdom of 6 or less, it is possible to fail your perception check against someone 5 feet away. It is also possible to fail this if there are other modifiers in play(like being distracted). Basically, if you have at least a +3 to perception, you will automatically spot anyone who is not being sneaky within 30 feet, and have a better than 50/50 chance of spotting anyone out in the open withing 130 feet.
Contrary to popular belief, you do not automatically lose stealth when you move out into the open. You are merely unable to restealth should you become observed.
Now lets say you follow someone into a dim alley.
- The other person is using stealth, they rolled a 10 and have a +6 stealth modifier, base DC of 16
- The person looking is 40 feet away +4 DC.
- The dim light and clutter in the alley could be considered unfavorable conditions +2 DC.So you would be looking at a DC 22 check. If you succeed, they are observed. Since the dim light in the alley provides concealment(unless you have darkvision), they can attempt to stealth even when observed as a move action. This would then in turn force you to make another perception check.
In most cases, perception is a free action, but if a players wants to take extra time to look for something specific, that is a move action.
A good example of this is searching a room. If you want to completely search a room, you can take a 20(take 20 times as long) on each 5 foot square. Each 5 foot square would take 20 move actions = 10 rounds = 1 minute.
Excellent, the way you explained it makes perfect sense and makes stealth/perception checks much easier for me to manage.
Thanks Charender!
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1) automatically observed as they are within line of sight. No action or check is required.
If a creature is in plain sight, other creatures see it. If it makes a noise, other creatures hear it. If it is quiet and potentially hidden, it can (if it chooses) make a Stealth check to remain unnoticed.
Some specific abilities and actions allow creatures to bend this principle.
Is a creature considered observed when you have made a successful perception check to notice them? Is this perception check made as passive? If so what do you use to determine the result of a passive perception check?
For example, someone enters an alley, a round later another person enters the same alley from behind.
In this scenario is the third party entering the alley:
1) automatically observed as they are within line of sight (and pathfinder has no facing rules)?
2) observed after an active perception check is rolled by the creature already present in the alley?
3) observed after a passive perception check is compared against the perception DC to notice that another creature has entered the alley.
The action to notice something via Perception is this:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Most Perception checks are made reactively in response to observable stimulus. In your scenario the observable stimulus would be the second individual walking into the alley. At that point they both enter each other’s visual range and that observable stimulus triggers reactive Perception checks from them both to notice each other. So your answer is 1) but not exactly. It will be an automatic Perception check, but that doesn't mean the automatically see each other. The Perception DC is set by several factors: Distance, Obstructions, Conditions, and possibly Stealth.
As for what exactly "observed" means and whether or not you automatically leave Stealth when you leave cover/concealment, well arguments can be made both ways as you have already seen in this thread. The majority of people I have seen on the boards think what Jeremiziah said is correct: By RAW if you leave cover/concealment you become lose the benefit of your Stealth check to anyone not distracted and are then subject to the flat Perception DC (possibly modified by distance and conditions). However, as Charender has shown, others don't believe you automatically lose Stealth when you come out of cover/concealment. Generally the argument for this side is the rules only say you need cover/concealment to use Stealth if you are already being observed. Unfortunately, the argument can be made either way using the wording in the Stealth entry. It's an ongoing point of argument with Stealth.
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So you would be looking at a DC 22 check. If you succeed, they are observed. Since the dim light in the alley provides concealment(unless you have darkvision), they can attempt to stealth even when observed as a move action. This would then in turn force you to make another perception check.
I do have a few disagreements with this statement:
1) Using Stealth is only ever a Move Action if you are Sniping. Usually Stealth itself requires no action. It is normally taken as part of a "movement" which is not necessarily the same as a Move Action.
2) If you are being observed (such as after a successful Perception check) you must use a Bluff check (Standard Action) to distract your observers before attempting Stealth (as part of a movement). The only thing in the rules that says you may attempt Stealth even while being observed is the HiPS ability. Although, I have seen some arguments against this too.
3) This is an addition rather than a disagreement. Even in dim light if you are in the outdoors, under the light of the stars and moon, low light vision would negate the concealment of dim light the same way darkvision does.
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Contrary to popular belief, you do not automatically lose stealth when you move out into the open. You are merely unable to restealth should you become observed.
+1
Note though that moving by certain amounts cause penalties to Stealth checks to remain stealthed (see the skill description). As a GM, I am likely to allow PCs to roll reactive Perception checks whenever a penalty to stealth occurs. So if a creature stands still, the PCs don't get a reactive roll. If a creature moves while stealthing, they do.
This is especially important when dealing with invisible creatures, although note that the "distracted" part of Perception sometimes means that the PCs may not get a Perception check against an invisible creature, depending on the circumstances.
I apply the same logic to blindsense (when to provide reactive vs. active checks) and ditto for blindsight. I treat tremorsense a little differently as it's not really sight at all.
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I only really use the Stealth and Perception rules in detail in combat.
Outside combat I prefer to simply use a narrative style- if you've come up on the sentry in the watchtower from behind, i'd let you use stealth to sneak up on him with his success representing him hearing you come in time to negate your surprise round.
The only rule I really use for narrative style stealth is the distance and circumstantial penalties for perception.
If you have any other questions about Stealth, THIS THREAD has links to a lot of past Stealth questions and discussions.
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Contrary to popular belief, you do not automatically lose stealth when you move out into the open. You are merely unable to restealth should you become observed.
I think what Charender means to say here is "It's unclear in the rules and there is no real consensus".
There is always a ton of debate on this issue and ultimately it boils down to what your GM says. If you are a GM I suggest you read the rules and make a judgment for yourself, or at least read the previous debates in one of the many threads here.
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Now lets say you follow someone into a dim alley.
- The other person is using stealth, they rolled a 10 and have a +6 stealth modifier, base DC of 16
- The person looking is 40 feet away +4 DC.
- The dim light and clutter in the alley could be considered unfavorable conditions +2 DC.
This depends on when exactly the stealth user began using stealth. If he only begins using stealth after entering the alleyway behind the PC, it would come down to initiative. If the PC wins initiative, he should get a perception check that is not adjusted by the NPC's stealth check, and if he succeeds, the NPC won't be able to use stealth against the PC in that round without first using something like bluff or first moving to cover.