For a while now I've been unhappy with the current system of magic in D&D and Pathfinder. I'm not really a fan of the "cast and forget" Vancian system. I also would really like to see more of a differentiation between Arcane and Divine casters.
To remedy these perceived shortcomings I've been slowly been trying to a system I would prefer. So far it's only in the theory stage; I haven't begun to fiddle with mechanics, but I wanted to post my ideas here for some feedback. Whether others are looking for something similar, think I'm heading in the right direction, or just think it's an interesting idea.
OK. My first idea is to break casters into three categories based on the source of their powers: Ambient casters, Inherent casters, and Bestowed casters.
Ambient casters will and shape power from the world around them. Wizards and Warlocks would fall into this category. I think a skill-based casting mechanic would reflect their abilities well. Maybe spells have a casting DC; failed spells backfire and may cause damage to the caster, but exceed the DC by enough and add special effects.
Inherent casters contain magical power within themselves. Monk and Sorcerer would fit here. I think that a point based system would work well for Inherents. I also think that their casting mechanic should have less risk than Ambients but sacrifice the wide range of abilities.
Bestowed casters receive their power from an agreement with a deity or other power. Obviously this contains Clerics, Paladins, and Druids( I think they fit better here than in Ambient). I haven't been able to think a good idea for a mechanic to reflect this category yet, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Questions? Comments? Words of Encouragement?
I think Bestowed should operate the closest to the Vancian system. They're granted so many prayers or blessings or whatnot per day, and that's that. I like the general outline of the other two. How would ambient casters' 'power supply' be determined? You haven't specified any sort of limit on their daily spellcasting. Perhaps some sort of fatigue system?
I think you have a great start there! Since you're in an early stage, I'll throw out a bunch of ideas.
Ambient: Wizard, Alchemist, Druid, Ranger
I suggest that Druids be ambient. Partially, because the idea of druids drawing power from nature all around them rather than being beholden to a specific deity is really cool, and fits the neutrality and nature themes of the druid. Also, having both arcane and divine casters using the mechanic offers a nice diversity.
I like the idea of ambient casters using a skills to extract power from the world around them. I suggest that each class have a single skill they use for spellcasting.
Wizard = Spellcraft
Alchemist = Alchemy
Druid & Ranger = Survival
One thing you'll want to make sure of is that the cumulative statistics of rolling to cast the spell and any resistance rolls (Saves & spell resistance) don't make the casting totally unreliable.
Inherent: Monk, Sorcerer, Bard, (Warlock)
I could see a point based system for any of the categories, but harm/cost/sacrifice is much more interesting for the inherent casters. Maybe something like the normal spell pyramid (more low level abilities, less top level abilities) but with sacrifice required to use the highest level powers.
Actual hit points are a poor choice for a sacrificed commodity. They're too easily replaced and have no penalty as they go down except for getting closer to the risk of death. What might work better is ability damage. Every other point of ability damage gives a -1 penalty, so casting an occasional high level spell would require a small sacrifice, but casting too many could be a big deal.
Bestowed: Cleric, Paladin, Antipaladin
Sacrifice could work here too, either ability points or something else.
I think you have a great start there! Since you're in an early stage, I'll throw out a bunch of ideas.
Ambient: Wizard, Alchemist, Druid, Ranger
I suggest that Druids be ambient. Partially, because the idea of druids drawing power from nature all around them rather than being beholden to a specific deity is really cool, and fits the neutrality and nature themes of the druid. Also, having both arcane and divine casters using the mechanic offers a nice diversity.I like the idea of ambient casters using a skills to extract power from the world around them. I suggest that each class have a single skill they use for spellcasting.
Wizard = Spellcraft
Alchemist = Alchemy
Druid & Ranger = Survival
One thing you'll want to make sure of is that the cumulative statistics of rolling to cast the spell and any resistance rolls (Saves & spell resistance) don't make the casting totally unreliable.Inherent: Monk, Sorcerer, Bard, (Warlock)
I could see a point based system for any of the categories, but harm/cost/sacrifice is much more interesting for the inherent casters. Maybe something like the normal spell pyramid (more low level abilities, less top level abilities) but with sacrifice required to use the highest level powers.Actual hit points are a poor choice for a sacrificed commodity. They're too easily replaced and have no penalty as they go down except for getting closer to the risk of death. What might work better is ability damage. Every other point of ability damage gives a -1 penalty, so casting an occasional high level spell would require a small sacrifice, but casting too many could be a big deal.
Bestowed: Cleric, Paladin, Antipaladin
Sacrifice could work here too, either ability points or something else.
Ha, snatched the words from my mouth. However, I think Druid/Ranger should draw from Knowledge: Nature rather than Survival.
To append to the list:
Ambient: Magus
Inherent: Oracle
Bestowed: Witch, Inquisitor
Thank you for all the suggestions, it's reassuring to see others who are interested.
As for the Warlock class I did mean the class from 3.5. One of my close friends loves the class which means it occasionally sneaks into my Pathfinder discussions.
Anyway. I was indeed planning on implementing a fatigue mechanic to limit Ambient casters. I figure after the casting DC reaches a certain number the caster is fatigued for so many rounds. I've also been looking at the Words of Power playtest and think it would be interesting to incorporate to Ambient casters; although instead of a spellslot/point hybrid system, each word adds to a base casting DC.
As for Inherent casters, I think having a point system in place and if X number of points are spent at once then some damage occurs. I think what type of damage should depend on the class. Although a mechanic where after spending X number of points, their total point pool is temporary reduced for Y amount of time, has been another idea I've toyed around with.
The SLA's per day mechanic has caught my eye for Bestowed casters. I like the idea of using that for low level abilities and then sacrificing ability score damage for more powerful abilities
As for the Warlock class I did mean the class from 3.5. One of my close friends loves the class which means it occasionally sneaks into my Pathfinder discussions.
Ah, if you mean the 3.5 Warlock then it's definitely a Bestowed caster. The modern witch shares a similar flavor, gaining its powers from a mysterious patron.
Fatigue! That's a great idea. In fact, taking on conditions would make a great "drain" mechanic.
One way to do it would be to make a list of conditions, starting with the mildest and working toward the most harsh. Using a powerful ability would require the caster to take on a condition from the first tier. Casting again would require either adopting a second condition or upgrading the first one to a harsher one.
Ha, snatched the words from my mouth. However, I think Druid/Ranger should draw from Knowledge: Nature rather than Survival.
Ha, snatched the words from my mouth. However, I think Druid/Ranger should draw from Knowledge: Nature rather than Survival.
Thanks! I went with Survival because it's Wisdom based. Since Druid & Ranger spellcasting is based on Wisdom and neither class generally uses INT at all. Since both INT based casters are getting and INT based skill, and Druid/Ranger are both rather attribute starved, it seemed more fair.
Thanks! I went with Survival because it's Wisdom based. Since Druid & Ranger spellcasting is based on Wisdom and neither class generally uses INT at all. Since both INT based casters are getting and INT based skill, and Druid/Ranger are both rather attribute starved, it seemed more fair.
That's a keen observation, and I missed it. We run a special house rule that Know: Nature & Religion are wisdom based.
Not sure using the existing skills is the best idea. Maybe something more akin to Caster level plus Casting Ability bonus. So for a Wizard some thing like CL + Int modifier.
For inherent classes, a point system. I have seen the point system tried many times, and have yet to see it not become overpowered as they moved up to higher level. And having limits on higher abilities really doesn't help, because they can just use their more powerful lower level abilities over and over again.
I suggest you check out the 3.5 psionicist for an example, this was freqently mentioned as someone who could spend all their PSPs in one battle, and totally take over that battle. I have played a psionicist, and by 12th-13th level, it wasn't one battle I could take over, but numerous, I had a LOT of PSPs.
And the problem with penalizing the inherent caster for spending a lot of point is the one inherent in a point system. They can avoid the penalties by casting a lot of the lower powered spells, and doing it all day long.
I understand your concerns. Although Pathfinder already allows Cantrips and Orisons, the ability to spam low level spells poses the risk of disrupting game balance. There are two solutions that could remedy this situation.
1. Apply a "cooldown" time to spells. This would prevent a caster from launching a low level spell every round, but could also extremely hamper combat ability.
2. Divide the total point pool into 3 categories. Use one for low level spells, say 1st-3rd, one for mid level spells, 4th-6th, and one for high level, 7th-9th. This would prevent a caster from using all their points on low level spells. However, While this will maintain some of the flexibility of a point system combined with some restrictions of spell slots, it does increase book keeping a bit.
I personally think option 2 is a better solution
For a good fatigue/mana based casting system that still utilizes the spell slots/spells per day system already provided, you might take a look at this variant casting system. It might just be close to what you're looking for. As is or with a little modification it is an excellent system. Or at least it appears to be, I haven't play tested it.
For a while now I've been unhappy with the current system of magic in D&D and Pathfinder. I'm not really a fan of the "cast and forget" Vancian system (...) is to break casters into three categories based on the source of their powers: Ambient casters, Inherent casters, and Bestowed casters.
Interesting concept...
The bestowed caster could work on the base of the 3.5 Spirit Shaman: selecting (or be bestowed) a narrow selection of powers (spells) cast spontaneously (à la sorcerer), which can be changed daily according to the caster's prayers or patron's whim.
On a separate note, Vancian magic has three main characteristics:
1) Magic is packaged in "spells", which the caster cannot modify at whim (A fireball cannot be turned into a cone of fire or an iceball for example)
2) Casters have finite magic "capacitors" which once emptied, cannot be used to perform magic until "refilled". In D&D, this has taken the form of spell slots.
3) Spells are complicated and therefore cannot be cast in complex situations (such as combat). In order to use spells in such stressful situations, caster must prepare spells in such a way that only the "triggering command" is left out and performed in due time. This is also know as "fire-and-forget" magic. Personally, I think the appellation is not representative of what it is; the spell isn't forgotten at all...
From what I get, your issue mainly concern the 3rd element of Vancian magic, but would you plan to also deconstruct #1 and #2?
'findel
For a while now I've been unhappy with the current system of magic in D&D and Pathfinder. I'm not really a fan of the "cast and forget" Vancian system (...) is to break casters into three categories based on the source of their powers: Ambient casters, Inherent casters, and Bestowed casters.Interesting concept...
On a separate note, Vancian magic has three main characteristics:
3 Vancian Characteristics:1) Magic is packaged in "spells", which the caster cannot modify at whim (A fireball cannot be turned into a cone of fire or an iceball for example)2) Casters have finite magic "capacitors" which once emptied, cannot be used to perform magic until "refilled". In D&D, this has taken the form of spell slots.
3) Spells are complicated and therefore cannot be cast in complex situations (such as combat). In order to use spells in such stressful situations, caster must prepare spells in such a way that only the "triggering command" is left out and performed in due time. This is also know as "fire-and-forget" magic. Personally, I think the appellation is not representative of what it is; the spell isn't forgotten at all...
From what I get, your issue mainly concern the 3rd element of Vancian magic, but would you plan to also deconstruct #1 and #2?
'findel
Most of my concern is with the 3rd, but I do want to deconstruct the 1st for Ambient casters. I also want to both differentiate more between Arcane and Divine, as well as accentuate the different sources of magic and make them mechanically unique.
Most of my concern is with the 3rd, but I do want to deconstruct the 1st for Ambient casters. I also want to both differentiate more between Arcane and Divine, as well as accentuate the different sources of magic and make them mechanically unique.
Although its still at the stage of playtest yet, the Word of Powers alternative magic system presented in future Paizo's Ultimate Magic seems to do a good job at deconstructing Vancian's "packaged spells". That could work well for wizards and other ambient casters.
For what its worth, Druid are divine casters by tradition, but I could see their methodology being closer to that of a Wizard's, therefore fitting the Ambient Caster according to your terminology.
I think this would further differentiate the druid from a nature-god cleric with the plant and animal domains.
'findel
A thought for the inherent casters:
Use the points system in some matter but make them fatigued when they get below a certain number of points, and then exhausted below another amount.
Say Fatigued when they are down to 1/3 and exhausted at 1/4 (I know this are odd amounts to combined but the thought is that it's a bit like the triangle when you are full you have lots but once you start running out it seems to go faster).
I would also think that instead of just higher level stuff maybe they can simply spend more points for "booster" effects off of their lower stuff so everything increases along a theme, instead of just a bunch of different abilities.
This way you get a theme effect without relying on some sort of "power tree" or list of requirements that dump off as you gain more levels -- instead everything builds UP.
You might be able to draw some inspiration from this too. Grittier Magic.
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Interesting stuff!
For Inherent casters, how about going the whole hog and letting them have all their magical abilities 'at will', but letting them have a lot less of them... they're inherent parts of them, if I'm understanding the concept you're presenting correctly, so using them should be as simple as walking and talking, yes? If there's a power balance issue you could give higher level powers a 'cooldown' time - maybe with the 'fatigue' mechanic if they were forced to use a power before the cooldown time was up?
For Bestowed casters you could go for the classic 'beseeching' of the deity / power / whatever it is that bestows them with their magic - they actually have to pray for the stuff (at the time they want the effect, rather than the 'spell preparation' prayers of Clerics and Druids in the normal game). Doing stuff in line with that power's goals would be easier, and allow more and more powerful magic to be used, while doing stuff less related would be progressively harder (so healing a true believer is easy, but healing an atheist is hard or impossible). If you're taking a classic pantheon of pseudo-ancient Greek gods, or something similar, then sacrifice could increase the amount of magic allowed - literally 'bribing' the powers-that-be for magic aid by burning offerings. Having non-casters join in prayers / rites the caster leads could also help.
Mechanically, maybe this could be reflected by no set number of spells per day, but with an increasing risk of 'displeasing the gods' - doing something in-line with the god's own agenda, which needs the 'miracle' and can't be done another way incures no risk, while doing trivial stuff or stuff less in-line with that deity's goals starts to increase, cumulatively, a number the DM checks against to see if the gods are displeased (or wrathful on a really bad roll). This 'displeasure of the gods' number could then be decreased via periods of worship, fulfiling the god's goals, and appropriate sacrifices (maybe it'd even be possible to get a positive score to offset later pleas for magic - sort of like divine 'browny points'?).
In the Harnmaster RPG, clerics/priests must pray for 'piety points', which represent the favour of their diety. These points are then spent casting rituals and creating miracles learned from their church or channelled directly from the diety.
Piety points may also be gained from completing holy quests, converting heretics and so forth.
A system like this would work well for bestowed casters.
In the Harnmaster RPG, clerics/priests must pray for 'piety points', which represent the favour of their diety. These points are then spent casting rituals and creating miracles learned from their church or channelled directly from the diety.
Piety points may also be gained from completing holy quests, converting heretics and so forth.
A system like this would work well for bestowed casters.
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Divine prepared spellcasters never really made sense to me. Wouldn't a god want their priest to be able to adjust to the situation that they actually find themselves in, instead of the one they started the day THINKING they MIGHT find themselves in?
I dunno, I'm all-around not a big fan of prepared spellcasting in general. Spontaneous just feels more "right" to me.
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I really like this idea.
I've made spontaneous clerics before. the idea makes a fair amount of sense. They definitely are not the default though.
I also like the idea of specialty clerics. I'm not a fan of the way domains are handled. All clerics get the same list, with a small amount of differentiation by domain. I'd think clerics of asmodeus would use drastically different magic than those of cayden cailean.
With the mechanics as is, I've adopted the following stance. My other friends as players, or DMs have had to admit that it makes sense.
"All magic is arcane, if you think about it. Wizards cast it through skill, Sorcerers through instinct, and Clerics pray to powerful creatures who cast it for them through skill or instinct. Therefore, a cleric is clearly inferior to a wizard. the wizard casts his own spells. the cleric prays to a powerful wizard and asks him to cast the spells for him."
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and comments. I definitely have a concrete direction to take this idea in.
I'll be working on rough draft mechanics in the next few weeks (after finals anyway). Hopefully I'll post something just after New Years.
Feel free to continue to post more ideas here, I'll check back periodically to see what could be useful during development.
Thanks Again