Akerlof wrote: Double weapons aren't so clear, the way I interpret the part about using it as a two handed weapon when only using one side implies to me that you treat it as a light and one handed weapon when using both sides. But I can see how someone would interpret it differently. To highlight own quote:
Quote: he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. As you note, all this does is say the attack penalties you get for using a double weapon to TWF. It does not say, in any way, shape, or form that you treat the double weapon that way. Just that those are the attack penalties.
Those penalties vary, of course, depending on the possession of the TWF feat.
That should be clear, but many choose to read it otherwise. And then it gets played at tables in the other way, and that's where we really retain the rules knowledge from...
Now as to two-handed attacks... the 'rule' you are quoting is just a glossing over and not the full rule. You do not, for example, get 1.5x STR for using a light weapon in two hands, right?
If we look in the weapon section, we get more detailed rules:
Quote: Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon
Here it is by the type of weapon.
Two-handed is separated from one-handed wielded in two hands (that's in the previous entry).
-James
Akerlof wrote: I'd also love a clarification on mounted charges. The way I read it, all those mounted charge related feats say "while you are charging on a mount..." but SKR explicitly said you are not charging while your mount charges. So, by that ruling, you can use vital strike on a mounted charge, but not ride by attack or spirited charge. I prefer to play it the opposite way. But I haven't really played my cavalier since SKR made that ruling because I'm not comfortable doing something I think is against RAW in PFS games.
Akerlof, I'd like to draw your attention to an earlier link in regards to the subject of Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack "
James Jacobs, Creative Director wrote: Those feats work fine. The language might not be 100% super precise, but you can assume that in the cases of those feats, a charging mount that you're riding lets you use the feats as written.
The wording in the Mounted Combat section of the CRB is also very clear that "your mount uses its own action to move". Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge both say "When mounted and using the charge action..." which, when read in context with the Mounted Combat section clearly means "When on a mount that is using the charge action.."
If you weren't aware, the most recent update of PFS states that GM's have to treat clarifications made by Paizo staff on the messageboards as RAW. So you are well within the rules, even the RAW, and have the dev clarifications linked in here to back it up, to use Vital Strike on a charge.
Ssalarn wrote:
Akerlof, I'd like to draw your attention to an earlier link in regards to the subject of Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack "
James Jacobs, Creative Director wrote: Those feats work fine. The language might not be 100% super precise, but you can assume that in the cases of those feats, a charging mount that you're riding lets you use the feats as written.
Cool, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of James Jacobs' clarification, my gnome shall gleefully ride by attack every chance he gets from here on out. (That's the downside of making messageboard clarifications binding: They can be so scattered, and come in at such random times, and get buried in other stuff that they're very easy to miss. Of course, that's why you print them out or bookmark them on your phone/iPad/whatever if they affect your character.)
james maissen wrote:
Now as to two-handed attacks... the 'rule' you are quoting is just a glossing over and not the full rule. You do not, for example, get 1.5x STR for using a light weapon in two hands, right?
If we look in the weapon section, we get more detailed rules:
Quote:
...
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Here it is by the type of weapon.
Two-handed is separated from one-handed wielded in two hands (that's in the previous entry).
-James
Emphasis mine: "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively."
That tells to me that the 1.5x strength is a function of how the weapon is wielded, not a property of the weapon itself. There are some special cases that allow you to use two handed weapons in one hand (lances, phalanx soldiers, smaller weapons.) But those are special cases and it seems to me that the plain rule of "wielded in two hands = 1.5x strength, wielded in 1 hand = 1x str" applies, since the entry on two handed weapons explicitly assumes that they're being wielded in two hands.
Like I said, dual weapons are arguable, it's a judgment call: Do you understand the sentence "The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it," as implying that when you attack with both ends, you are not "using a double weapon-two handed," or do you disregard the "can also choose" part. I would treat them as a light off hand and a one handed main hand weapon when two-weapon fighting with them at my table. I wouldn't argue with you if you gave them a 1.5x strength bonus at your table. Not worth arguing over here, in my opinion.
Akerlof wrote: Emphasis mine: "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively."
That tells to me that the 1.5x strength is a function of how the weapon is wielded, not a property of the weapon itself. There are some special cases that allow you to use two handed weapons in one hand (lances, phalanx soldiers, smaller weapons.) But those are special cases and it seems to me that the plain rule of "wielded in two hands = 1.5x strength, wielded in 1 hand = 1x str" applies, since the entry on two handed weapons explicitly assumes that they're being wielded in two hands.
You know this to be false and for several reasons, many of which are directly in the quote that you sniped from..
1. Your argument would posit that a light weapon wielded in two hands would get 1.5x STR. It does not.
2. Your argument would also posit that there is no difference between a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands and a two-handed weapon. There expressly is a difference in categorization here.
3. The general rule is certainly that two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon, but as you even list there are exceptions. There are other exceptions which specify how it is handled (much like say a rapier in two hands is an exception). The exceptions you happen to list only modify number of hands required, and thus that is the only change for them. Meanwhile other exceptions (jotungrip) also modify the STR bonus to damage, which left unmodified is unmodified.
You are making a leap here, and assuming that this is an 'error' that has existed since the start of 3e over a dozen years ago and through several revisions, printings, and multiple editions has somehow never been noticed.
Now I will agree that the entry on two-handed weapons reads as if it assumes not only that they must be used in two hands (which is short sighted as there already was an exception to this) but moreover that they could not be off-hand weapons. Neither of these possibilities which existed all along were directly addressed.
That does not give carte blanche to read your extra rules in. Rather it leaves us with the RAW, which determine STR bonus to damage in the given two tier system: category of the weapon (or effective category in the case of inappropriately sized weapons) and how it is being used.
The later is limited to offhand weapons in the case of light and one-handed weapons, and to number of hands used in the case of one-handed weapons only.
It could simply be exactly what is written: one-handed weapons are the border case. Number of hands used for it determines STR bonus to damage, while it is always 1x for light weapons and always 1.5x for two-handed weapons.
-James
Akerlof wrote: Like I said, dual weapons are arguable, it's a judgment call: Do you understand the sentence "The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it," as implying that when you attack with both ends, you are not "using a double weapon-two handed," or do you disregard the "can also choose" part. I don't disregard it, but neither do I read into it what you have me do for no reason.
The rules only say that you take attack penalties when TWFing with a double weapon. It is just saying which entry on the TWF chart one would reference to see the penalties incurred. Nothing more should be taken from this, yet people do and thus it gets reinforced at the table.
For example a PC with weapon finesse would NOT get to apply his DEX score in lieu of his STR score for the off-hand attack with this two-handed weapon. Right? Why can't he do so? Because the weapon is not light, nor is it even treated as a light weapon. There is nothing light about the weapon!
The rest of the entry explains that one does not HAVE to use a double weapon this way... one does not have to TWF with it.
The double weapon can be used as a normal two-handed weapon, essentially ignoring that it has a second head.
The double weapon (inappropriately sized) can be used in one-hand (if size permits) but then the wielder doesn't have the option to TWF with it.
That is all, no more needs to be read in here as people are want to do in this case,
James
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